Let's be real, Danny Green is getting the max

[Ice009]

I was advocating this at the time. I was super

So you knew about Jimmy Butler beforehand, you thought he'd be good? What year was he drafted?

[Richie]

. There was NO WAY that SA was drafting Butler after picking Kawhi at 15 in the same draft.

Jefferson and Anderson were on that team. Drafting another wing would have mafe no sense.

I don't think the roster had anything to do with it. The Spurs certainly took Joseph because they thought he was the best player at that point. Green had only played 4 legit games (10+ min) for the Spurs at that point and those were garbage games at the end of the season when we were resting for the playoffs.

That summer we kept Green (he was fully guaranteed) and he played every game the next season, starting in 38. Clearly the front office wasn't committed to any of the wings considering Jefferson and Anderson were gone by the next year and Neal the year after

[Chinook]

I don't think the roster had anything to do with it. The Spurs certainly took Joseph because they thought he was the best player at that point. Green had only played 4 legit games (10+ min) for the Spurs at that point and those were garbage games at the end of the season when we were resting for the playoffs.

BPA is something a lot of people misinterpret. It does NOT mean best player regardless of position. It means best player taking into account talent, fit, upside, intangibles, etc. That Cory was a PG made a huge difference to his BPA rating. And that the team had just used two decently high picks on wings and had two more on large deals certainly affected Butler's and Parson's BPA rating.

That summer we kept Green (he was fully guaranteed) and he played every game the next season, starting in 38. Clearly the front office wasn't committed to any of the wings considering Jefferson and Anderson were gone by the next year and Neal the year after

Danny wasn't guaranteed at all. Most people assumed he was camp fodder or hopefully trade filler for a legit big. He and Kawhi pushed Anderson and Jefferson out of the SL and eventually off the team, but it's retrospective to say that the Spurs were keen to use a third straight first-rounder on a wing in 2012 just because they ended up upgrading eventually.

[Richie]

BPA is something a lot of people misinterpret. It does NOT mean best player regardless of position. It means best player taking into account talent, fit, upside, intangibles, etc. That Cory was a PG made a huge difference to his BPA rating. And that the team had just used two decently high picks on wings and had two more on large deals certainly affected Butler's and Parson's BPA rating.

If by fit you mean their personality I agree, the Spurs would avoid a player who wouldn't fit in to our culture, but I think the whole concept of 'best player available' is to put very little to no value in to what position the current team needs. Popovich never had any expectation of Joseph to play any kind of significant minutes, why would immediate team needs come in to it?

I think the front office thought Joseph would be the best player right now out of all those available. They were wrong, clearly Butler and Parsons are better players than Joseph right now, but that's just the nature of the draft. If they thought Butler was a better prospect I'm certain they would have taken him.

Danny wasn't guaranteed at all. Most people assumed he was camp fodder or hopefully trade filler for a legit big. He and Kawhi pushed Anderson and Jefferson out of the SL and eventually off the team, but it's retrospective to say that the Spurs were keen to use a third straight first-rounder on a wing in 2012 just because they ended up upgrading eventually.

Sorry that was a typo, I meant to say he was fully guaranteed. I agree with you, my point is exactly that the Spurs weren't sold on the wings and open to trading/waiving them as they did. As that was certainly the case, there's no reason they would refrain from drafting a better player because of their presence.

[z0sa]

Did some dumbass just say bowen could guard zbo?

Uh, he didnt just guard Zbo, he shut him the down.

[z0sa]

But as overall basketball player in today's style of game Green > Bowen. Plain and simple.

I wouldnt. Im surprised anyone with championship aspirations would. Bowen could have done anything Green's done at 35 years of age. Apparently Im in the minority though. Makes me feel old

[z0sa]

The point is that Bowen's "locking down" is what Green and Leonard do on their off nights. It's crazy how the standard has changed. Danny and Kawhi didn't just contain Durant and Westbrook; they straight owned them. Splitter didn't hold Dirk to his average; he took him out of the series. Bruce gets credit for versatility, but his effectiveness against individual players is overrated, in my opinion.

? Again Green is not as effective of a player as bowen and never will be... he just isnt dirty enough. Conflating the two isnt necessary, theyre different players and Green is certainly a better offensive player. Trying to act like his offnight is just as good as Bruce's regular night is just being silly thougb. Bowen got into better players' heads FAR more than a player like Green. the jury is still out on Kawhi. Kawhi certainly has the physical ability. But again, the tradeoff for offensive versatility is stamina on defense and injury concerns. At his age he probably doesnt have anything to worry about besides getting to Bruce's level of consistency.

[hater]

I wouldnt. Im surprised anyone with championship aspirations would. Bowen could have done anything Green's done at 35 years of age. Apparently Im in the minority though. Makes me feel old

Bowen could have broke the finals 3pt record?

[Chinook]

If by fit you mean their personality I agree, the Spurs would avoid a player who wouldn't fit in to our culture, but I think the whole concept of 'best player available' is to put very little to no value in to what position the current team needs. Popovich never had any expectation of Joseph to play any kind of significant minutes, why would immediate team needs come in to it?.

And that's why I said the concept is misunderstood. BPA takes position into account. It's a "who do we think will be the best player for us" type of thing. No way the Spurs draft five centers in a row with high picks, for example, overall talent be damned. Obviously, it's different with draft-and-stashes, though, since you don't know if or when those guys will be able to come over.

I think the front office thought Joseph would be the best player right now out of all those available. They were wrong, clearly Butler and Parsons are better players than Joseph right now, but that's just the nature of the draft. If they thought Butler was a better prospect I'm certain they would have taken him.

I don't think there's any way the Spurs would have drafted Butler unless someone really wanted Jefferson from them in a trade. They really liked Anderson and they obviously loved Leonard. They would have been drafting Butler assuming he would be the sixth wing for a least three years. Don't think I've ever seen them have that kind of plan for the first-rounder.

Sorry that was a typo, I meant to say he was fully guaranteed. I agree with you, my point is exactly that the Spurs weren't sold on the wings and open to trading/waiving them as they did. As that was certainly the case, there's no reason they would refrain from drafting a better player because of their presence.

That's just repeating what you said before. My point is that the Spurs weren't sold on Green. He was fully NON-GUARANTEED and made the roster in camp. I also think it's fallacious to think the Spurs were intending to move on from Anderson, Jefferson and Neal simply because they ended up doing so. That's hindsight. Neal was obviously an up-and-comer back then, especially after he hit that shot in Memphis. Anderson had a promising rookie season and even got the starting nod that October. Manu was obviously Manu, and Jefferson was the team's minutes leader and workhorse (as badly as he sucked and as short of a time as he was in SA, Green and Leonard are just now overtaking him in the as-Spurs milestones). And then Kawhi, That was the reality back then, and there was simply no room for Butler and a lot or room for a PG project.

[Chinook]

? Again Green is not as effective of a player as bowen and never will be... he just isnt dirty enough. Conflating the two isnt necessary, theyre different players and Green is certainly a better offensive player. Trying to act like his offnight is just as good as Bruce's regular night is just being silly thougb. Bowen got into better players' heads FAR more than a player like Green. the jury is still out on Kawhi. Kawhi certainly has the physical ability. But again, the tradeoff for offensive versatility is stamina on defense and injury concerns. At his age he probably doesnt have anything to worry about besides getting to Bruce's level of consistency.

None of that matters. That's the point of what I was saying. Bowen may have gotten into players' heads, he may have made them work for everything they got, but he still didn't really stop them from scoring. That's the whole point of one-on-one defense. Back in Bruce's time, people just assume that you couldn't really stop great players from scoring a lot, but in today's era, that's no longer true. Bowen's legendary defensive series still don't compare with what Green and Leonard did against the Thunder last year, statistically.

I'll take being civil and simply not allowing your man to score over being hard-nosed and allowing players to reach their averages any day. Duncan wasn't into all that dirty stuff that Bowen or KG did, but that didn't stop him from being a superior defender to them.

[z0sa]

Bowen could have broke the finals 3pt record?

that had as much to do with Danny Green hitting shots as it had to do with Spoelstra being about 5 games slow adjusting.

[z0sa]

None of that matters. That's the point of what I was saying. Bowen may have gotten into players' heads, he may have made them work for everything they got, but he still didn't really stop them from scoring.

... what? That's bull .

Bowen's legendary defensive series still don't compare with what Green and Leonard did against the Thunder last year, statistically.

Sample size and different situations. Why are you comparing 2 elite defenders' accomplishments made together with one player's accomplishments made alone, anyway? Seems like a terribly flawed argument if you ask me. If Bowen had Kawhi at his side, you dknt think that would have made his life easier than say, Michael Finley? And again, lets see Pop even TRY Green on Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole 7 game series. Green's not in the same categoryPERIOD

[ElNono]

Bruce was so good that even TD's defense took a nosedive when he was gone. Only to magically 'rejuvenate' when Kiwi showed up. I think Green is the better 3pt shooter and has better physical tools (longer arms, reach) than Bruce, but Bowen was the more savvy defender, he did it for much longer, and was an integral part of the Spurs being a defensive powerhouse for many years. As a matter of fact, Pop himself mentioned that the team went more offense-oriented at some point because he thought he couldn't find another player that defended like Bruce did night in and night out.

[hater]

that had as much to do with Danny Green hitting shots as it had to do with Spoelstra being about 5 games slow adjusting.

so that's a yes? ok, Bowen would have broke the 3pt Finals record vs. the heat.

ppl forget Bowen was only useful from the corner 3. Green can shoot from pretty much from any 3pt region. Not to mention Green can shoot 3s off the dribble. Bowen possibly never scored that way.

[Chinook]

... what? That's bull .

Look at the numbers bro and stop talking out of your ass. You can make all the qualitative arguments you want. But there's not a ton of quan ative debate here.

Sample size and different situations. Why are you comparing 2 elite defenders' accomplishments made together with one player's accomplishments made alone, anyway? Seems like a terribly flawed argument if you ask me. If Bowen had Kawhi at his side, you dknt think that would have made his life easier than say, Michael Finley? And again, lets see Pop even TRY Green on Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole 7 game series. Green's not in the same categoryPERIOD

A lot wrong with this. First, a six-game series is large enough sample, especially compared to the samples people use for Bowen. Second, Green and Leonard guarded two players during that series (actually, Green guard pretty much everyone on OKC at some point), so it's not like they were tag-teaming a guy. Third, Leonard and Green work well together, but that's because their both good. If anything, Leonard's D for part of the WCF was the weak link. Finally, it's not a good thing Pop put Bowen on Dirk. Bruce didn't even faze him. Stephen Jackson did a better job than Bowen did. However, Danny defends bigs very well on switches. It was he who stopped Dirk on the final possession of the season-opener.

[timmy2003]

Look at the numbers bro and stop talking out of your ass. You can make all the qualitative arguments you want. But there's not a ton of quan ative debate here.



A lot wrong with this. First, a six-game series is large enough sample, especially compared to the samples people use for Bowen. Second, Green and Leonard guarded two players during that series (actually, Green guard pretty much everyone on OKC at some point), so it's not like they were tag-teaming a guy. Third, Leonard and Green work well together, but that's because their both good. If anything, Leonard's D for part of the WCF was the weak link. Finally, it's not a good thing Pop put Bowen on Dirk. Bruce didn't even faze him. Stephen Jackson did a better job than Bowen did. However, Danny defends bigs very well on switches. It was he who stopped Dirk on the final possession of the season-opener.

Bowen's defense on prime Dirk in that 2006 series was pretty impressive, the lack of rebounding killed us.

I agree that Green is a better overall player than Bowen was, but Green's one on one D is at best near prime Bowen's level

[hitmantb]

Each player only has one stamina bar.

I will say Bruce was better than Green/Kwahi on defense, but his level of consistency was really because he could afford to use all of his stamina on defense. On offense he pretty much just camped for corner 3's. Green's overall value is way higher when each of his 3 point attempts averages more points than prime Shaq's field goal attempts. The entire offense changes when you have someone moving without the ball like he does and with a devastating fast release.

Two-way players are extremely rare, not because of talent, also because of stamina. Even LeBron can not defend like Bruce night in and night out, not because he can't, but because he has to save stamina for offense.

[Chinook]

Bowen's defense on prime Dirk in that 2006 series was pretty impressive, the lack of rebounding killed us.

Dirk scored 27 ppg on 53 percent shooting. Compare that to the 20 on 38 he got against Jackson the next year. I don't care of Bruce was hard nosed and gave a of an effort. He didn't actually do much to stop Dirk.

I agree that Green is a better overall player than Bowen was, but Green's one on one D is at best near prime Bowen's level

I can live with that, though the Spurs never got to have Prime Bowen. You want to take Bowen's defense over Green's qualitatively? Fine by me. I just think people are too nostalgic.

[z0sa]

Look at the numbers bro and stop talking out of your ass.

To be honest, i watched nust about every game BB played in silver and black, and I pretty much disregard your opinion outright. I dont care what the numbers say or whether you think Im "talking out of my ass."

A lot wrong with this.

A lot wrong with you using 2 guys playing together on defense compared with one guy? Lol yeah, its kinda strange.

First, a six-game series is large enough sample,

No it is certainly not, Bruce won three les and made countless gutty plays on D throughout each run.

Second, Green and Leonard guarded two players during that series (actually, Green guard pretty much everyone on OKC at some point), so it's not like they were tag-teaming a guy.

You dont think they helped eachother on D? Lol

Third, Leonard and Green work well together, but that's because their both good.

And this allows you to compare their contributions simultaneously with Bruces how? You keep saying theres "alot wrong with this" but really, the comparison youre making is apples to oranges. For example you say if anything KLs d was the weak link, but then again that just sounds dumb when you think about who he was guarding. Good players are going to score, the best you can do is get in their head so they miss when it counts. Any vet will tell you this.

Finally, it's not a good thing Pop put Bowen on Dirk. Bruce didn't even faze him. Stephen Jackson did a better job than Bowen did. However, Danny defends bigs very well on switches. It was he who stopped Dirk on the final possession of the season-opener.

LOL, if only you were around in 2006, you might have known a lot of us HATED BB on Dirk... not for the reasons you assert, though.

[hater]

tbh we woulda won all those ships with Green instead of Bowen. we probly woulda won 04 vs the Lakers with Green. Love Bowen but this season's Green is playing at near allstar level tbqh

[ElNono]

I would argue people have extremely short memory, tbh... Bowen took on prime Kobe, prime TMac, prime Ray Allen... damn the SG position used to be stacked back then... Prime Dirk was always a bad matchup for the Spurs... Pop used to even put Parker on him here or there, just trying to give him a different look.

[z0sa]

so that's a yes? ok, Bowen would have broke the 3pt Finals record vs. the heat.

If he was left open as much as Green was ... why is that so hard to believe? Its not like DG didnt hit plenty of 3s from the corners. The point is that youre way overcrediting Green and way undercrediting Spoelstras re ation and the best system in basketball. Even if BB couldnt break the all time record, he still hit threes at one of the highest clips on the team during multiple le runs.

[hater]

so give +8ppg to those superstars, Green will still make that up with his superior offense IMO

[hater]

[QUOTE=z0sa;7754973][QUOTE=hater;7754790]so that's a yes? ok, Bowen would have broke the 3pt Finals record vs. the heat.

If he was left open as much as Green was ... why is that so hard to believe? Its not like DG didnt hit plenty of 3s from the corners. The point is that youre way overcrediting Green and way undercrediting Spoelstras re ation and the best system in basketball.

as I said, Bowen could only hit corner 3s 90% of his shots from the left corner 3. you can't seriously believe a player will break the 3pt record just with that shot

plus you can't seriously say a prime Duncan, Parker and Manu didn't give their shooters open looks

[ohmwrecker]

Bowen was a better defender than Green, but that's it.