Spurs: James Harden

[benefactor]

Prime Manu was never as good as Harden is now and he hasn't reached his prime. Not trying to debate just being honest.

Just stopped by for a second to laugh at you with others.



Carry on.

[djohn2oo8]

The Manu butthurt is real.

[100%duncan]

The Manu butthurt is real.

Manu>Harden is real too

[djohn2oo8]

Manu>Harden is real too

K.

[Bulaien999]

Manu>Harden is real too

Manu is king of second fiddle with a hall of fame PF coattails he rode.

[ElNono]

Manu is king of second fiddle with a hall of fame PF coattails he rode.

You mean when he coattailed Oberto to the olympic gold medal?

[ElNono]

I can't hate on Harden though, he's extremely talented.

[Mikeanaro]

Lol Harden is a clown like his WWE fans, lets see how this fat ugly does by the time he reaches his 38 summers.

[Splits]

[100%duncan]

Manu is king of second fiddle with a hall of fame PF coattails he rode.

Pippen coattailed Jordan too? Kobe? Wade?


These guys are all 2nd fiddle to Alphas, doesn't mean they aren't great. Please get pass the first round first

[Sean Cagney]

lol 7th seed

Two years ago when you got Howard and Nash your fave team was actually the 7th seed! IRONIC huh? They moved up when KIRBY got hot actually a seed.

I can't hate on Harden though, he's extremely talented.

Dude is good, he routinely lights the Spurs up too unfortunately. If they are down late he seems to always hit a damn clutch three.

[pookenstein]

I like this thread. It's a good mix of basketball related stuff and the occasional pornstar, or model picture.

[ambchang]

From an advanced stat perspective:

Manu had a lifetime ORtg of 114 and DRtg of 100 (net of +14), WS/48 of .202.

Highlights in season stats are:
OWS - high of 6.6, achieved > 6 5 of the 13 seasons.
DWS - high of 5.1, achieved > 4 4 of the 13 seasons.
WS - high of 11, achieved > 9 6 of the 13 seasons.
WS/48 - high of .257, achieved > .2 7 of the 13 seasons.
OBPM - high of 6.2, achieved > 4 8 of 13 seasons
DBPM - high of 2.1, achieved > 2 2 of the 13 seasons. But had 2 seasons < 0
VORP - high of 5.6, achieved > 4 6 of the 13 seasons.

James Harden:
Lifetime ORtg of 118 and DRtg of 106 (net of +12), WS/48 of .202 (same as Manu).

Highlights in season stats are:
OWS - high of 10.1, achieved > 6 4 of the 6 seasons. Note that one of the seasons he "only" had an OWS of 6.4 is this year, which is only half way through, and he is leading the league in that category.
DWS - high of 3, achieved > 4 0 of the 6 seasons.
WS - high of 12.8, achieved > 9 3 of the 6 seasons. Note that one of the seasons he "only" had a WS of 8.9 is this year, which is only half way through, and he is leading the league in that category.
WS/48 - high of .281, achieved > .2 4 of the 6 seasons.
OBPM - high of 7.4, achieved > 4 4 of 6 seasons
DBPM - high of 1.2, achieved > 0 2 of the 6 seasons. But had 3 seasons < 0
VORP - high of 7.9, achieved > 4 3 of the 6 seasons.

So at least from an advanced stats perspective, Harden is better on O, but worse on D when compared to Manu. But keep in mind that Harden is still entering his prime (potentially get better or flatline), but Manus' stats have been dragged down by the last few years due to old age, and also less minutes. Anything that is normalized is pretty comparable (WS/48, DRTG, ORTG).

That said, the story changes when it hits the playoffs.

I am only going to look at normalized numbers because players play different number of games due to elimination and such, and keep in mind that the comparisons are not 100% 1 to 1 because they play against different teams for an entire series rather than all the teams a couple of times a season.

Manu: ORTG 111 (peak 124 in 2005 when he went in God mode), DRTG 103 (peak 96), net of +8 (peak net of +20 in 05), WS/48 of .170 (peak of .260 in 2005). Note that he led the entire league in OWS in 2005 when the Spurs won a championship, and this is the playoff run that cemented Ginobili as a bona fide star in the league.

Harden: ORTG 116 (peak 126 in 2011), DRTG 108 (peak 104), net of +8 (peak net of +20 in both 10 and 11), WS/48 of .165 (peak of .193 in 11).

From a purely statistical perspective, both of them are actually pretty even in both the regular season and the playoffs. Harden is put up more impressive offensive numbers, but Manu puts up better defensive numbers. both of them, net, is about the same. That said, Harden plays more minutes and has a bigger role, but the production is still similar. Manu, at his best, was asked to be a co-lead on a team full of HoFers, and had a couple of incredible runs in the playoffs that Harden never had.

[100%duncan]

From an advanced stat perspective:

Manu had a lifetime ORtg of 114 and DRtg of 100 (net of +14), WS/48 of .202.

Highlights in season stats are:
OWS - high of 6.6, achieved > 6 5 of the 13 seasons.
DWS - high of 5.1, achieved > 4 4 of the 13 seasons.
WS - high of 11, achieved > 9 6 of the 13 seasons.
WS/48 - high of .257, achieved > .2 7 of the 13 seasons.
OBPM - high of 6.2, achieved > 4 8 of 13 seasons
DBPM - high of 2.1, achieved > 2 2 of the 13 seasons. But had 2 seasons < 0
VORP - high of 5.6, achieved > 4 6 of the 13 seasons.

James Harden:
Lifetime ORtg of 118 and DRtg of 106 (net of +12), WS/48 of .202 (same as Manu).

Highlights in season stats are:
OWS - high of 10.1, achieved > 6 4 of the 6 seasons. Note that one of the seasons he "only" had an OWS of 6.4 is this year, which is only half way through, and he is leading the league in that category.
DWS - high of 3, achieved > 4 0 of the 6 seasons.
WS - high of 12.8, achieved > 9 3 of the 6 seasons. Note that one of the seasons he "only" had a WS of 8.9 is this year, which is only half way through, and he is leading the league in that category.
WS/48 - high of .281, achieved > .2 4 of the 6 seasons.
OBPM - high of 7.4, achieved > 4 4 of 6 seasons
DBPM - high of 1.2, achieved > 0 2 of the 6 seasons. But had 3 seasons < 0
VORP - high of 7.9, achieved > 4 3 of the 6 seasons.

So at least from an advanced stats perspective, Harden is better on O, but worse on D when compared to Manu. But keep in mind that Harden is still entering his prime (potentially get better or flatline), but Manus' stats have been dragged down by the last few years due to old age, and also less minutes. Anything that is normalized is pretty comparable (WS/48, DRTG, ORTG).

That said, the story changes when it hits the playoffs.

I am only going to look at normalized numbers because players play different number of games due to elimination and such, and keep in mind that the comparisons are not 100% 1 to 1 because they play against different teams for an entire series rather than all the teams a couple of times a season.

Manu: ORTG 111 (peak 124 in 2005 when he went in God mode), DRTG 103 (peak 96), net of +8 (peak net of +20 in 05), WS/48 of .170 (peak of .260 in 2005). Note that he led the entire league in OWS in 2005 when the Spurs won a championship, and this is the playoff run that cemented Ginobili as a bona fide star in the league.

Harden: ORTG 116 (peak 126 in 2011), DRTG 108 (peak 104), net of +8 (peak net of +20 in both 10 and 11), WS/48 of .165 (peak of .193 in 11).

From a purely statistical perspective, both of them are actually pretty even in both the regular season and the playoffs. Harden is put up more impressive offensive numbers, but Manu puts up better defensive numbers. both of them, net, is about the same. That said, Harden plays more minutes and has a bigger role, but the production is still similar. Manu, at his best, was asked to be a co-lead on a team full of HoFers, and had a couple of incredible runs in the playoffs that Harden never had.

K

[100%duncan]

-rockets fan