NBA: If Kobe isn't a top 10 player then why is Lebron?

[Kidd K]

First Lebron is not top 5, he's borderline top 10.
Second, Lebron > Kobe, and it's not even close. Rings as the 2nd best player on 4, or even all 5 of his les isn't as impressive as the clear cut best player on 2 les. 1 MVP is less than 4 MVPs.

Lebron is the better offensive player and defensive player, to wit:
ORtg of 116, high of 125 and low of 99 (as a rookie), and this is without Shaq and MVP to pass to.
DRtg of 97, high of 92 and low of 102. Again, without players like Shaq, MVPau and Bynum protecting the paint. He didn't even have perimeter defenders of Ariza or MWP to offset his weakness.
WS/48 of .248, high of .322. FOUR seasons of .298 or higher. Led the league in WS/48 and WS 5 times, OWS 4 times, and had DWS of > 5 4 times.
Led the league in OBPM AND BPM8 times, with 5 seasons of > 10.
Led the league in VORP 8 times, with 5 seasons of > 8.

Kobe?
Ortg of 111, high of 115 and low of 96 (this year, not including the injured year last year).
Drt of 105, high of 98 and low of 111

Never led the league in ANY advanced stats other than usage rate.
Kobe's WS/48 high of .224 isn't even close to Lebron AVERAGE, in fact Lebron topped that 8 out of 12 seasons. His average of .178 is lower than Lebrons worst season (this year) outside of his rookie year.
One of the greatest offensive players in league history? He never even led the league in OWS, OBPM, or ORtg, and this is playing his entire prime in the most perimeter friendly era in NBA history. OBPM high of 7? Lebron bested that in 7 seasons, and the only reason it wasn't 8 seasons was because of the lockout year.
One of the greatest perimeter defenders? Kobe had a DBPM of less than zero in 13 out of his 19 seasons.
His best OPM was 5.9 (note that is less than his OBPM of 7, meaning that he put up a NEGATIVE in DBPM that year, which means that he can't defend when he has to score a lot)? Lebron bested that in EVERY SINGLE YEAR except his rookie season.
VORP high of 6.8? Lebron bested that in every single year except his rookie year, and this year, which isn't even finished and Lebron has a chance of surpassing it if he starts trying.

Lebron also smokes Kobe in pretty much every single basic stat category, including scoring.

Kobe vs. Lebron is dead. Kobe is actually a LOT more comparable to Paul Pierce. Kobe is better offensively, Pierce better defensively.. Both remained productive until old age, but the main difference being Pierce spending most of his prime next to Antoine Walker, while Kobe get to spend his with Shaq.

Great post. . .it's interesting that Kobe's Offensive Rating and Defenive Rating career highs are worse than LeBron's average.

Hard to make much argument for Kobe besides ring count.

[DPG21920]

Lebron is easily top 10 & better than Kobe.

[Malik Hairston]

They're probably both top 10, tbh..

Statistically, Lebron has one of the 2-3 greatest peaks in the history of the league, only 1991 to 1993 Dad Killer is comparable, and Wilt Chamberlain if you believe his oldies game would translate well..so if you value peak, it's impossible to leave him out, his performance from 2009 to 2014 was unparallelled, tbh..

Using Finals record is one of the stupidest arguments that people use..ring count is also irrelevant, too, unless you concede that Bill Russell is the greatest player of all-time..if you want to rank players based on that belief, then that's fine, you'll have to rank your lists accordingly..

[Brunodf]

First Lebron is not top 5, he's borderline top 10.
Second, Lebron > Kobe, and it's not even close. Rings as the 2nd best player on 4, or even all 5 of his les isn't as impressive as the clear cut best player on 2 les. 1 MVP is less than 4 MVPs.

Lebron is the better offensive player and defensive player, to wit:
ORtg of 116, high of 125 and low of 99 (as a rookie), and this is without Shaq and MVP to pass to.
DRtg of 97, high of 92 and low of 102. Again, without players like Shaq, MVPau and Bynum protecting the paint. He didn't even have perimeter defenders of Ariza or MWP to offset his weakness.
WS/48 of .248, high of .322. FOUR seasons of .298 or higher. Led the league in WS/48 and WS 5 times, OWS 4 times, and had DWS of > 5 4 times.
Led the league in OBPM AND BPM8 times, with 5 seasons of > 10.
Led the league in VORP 8 times, with 5 seasons of > 8.

Kobe?
Ortg of 111, high of 115 and low of 96 (this year, not including the injured year last year).
Drt of 105, high of 98 and low of 111

Never led the league in ANY advanced stats other than usage rate.
Kobe's WS/48 high of .224 isn't even close to Lebron AVERAGE, in fact Lebron topped that 8 out of 12 seasons. His average of .178 is lower than Lebrons worst season (this year) outside of his rookie year.
One of the greatest offensive players in league history? He never even led the league in OWS, OBPM, or ORtg, and this is playing his entire prime in the most perimeter friendly era in NBA history. OBPM high of 7? Lebron bested that in 7 seasons, and the only reason it wasn't 8 seasons was because of the lockout year.
One of the greatest perimeter defenders? Kobe had a DBPM of less than zero in 13 out of his 19 seasons.
His best OPM was 5.9 (note that is less than his OBPM of 7, meaning that he put up a NEGATIVE in DBPM that year, which means that he can't defend when he has to score a lot)? Lebron bested that in EVERY SINGLE YEAR except his rookie season.
VORP high of 6.8? Lebron bested that in every single year except his rookie year, and this year, which isn't even finished and Lebron has a chance of surpassing it if he starts trying.

Lebron also smokes Kobe in pretty much every single basic stat category, including scoring.

Kobe vs. Lebron is dead. Kobe is actually a LOT more comparable to Paul Pierce. Kobe is better offensively, Pierce better defensively.. Both remained productive until old age, but the main difference being Pierce spending most of his prime next to Antoine Walker, while Kobe get to spend his with Shaq.

[Arcadian]

Lebron is 6-10, Kobe is 11-15.

This is because Lebron is arguably the best SF of all time. The only compe ors are Bird and Erving, and I'm taking Lebron over both.

Even comparing across positions, Lebron has advantages over a lot of the typical top 10 selections. Ask yourself, do you really believe that Magic Johnson was significantly better than Lebron James at their respective peaks? Was Magic ever as good as 2012 Lebron? Probably not.

Kobe, on the other hand, had a relatively undefined "peak." He won 3 les when he was a young sidekick, and two more when he was slightly over the hill. He never had a definitive, best-player-on-earth run. He was never a 2012 Lebron or a 2003 Duncan or a 2000 Shaq or a 94 Hakeem or a 91/96 Jordan.

[DMC]

If Lebron wins with the Cavs (unlikely) he'll be back on top but right now Kobe is clearly ahead of him imo.

If not for an Allen 3, Bron would have been 0-3 vs the spurs..

Kobe has no shame...more than any player I have ever seen...but that trait can be good sometimes and he's clearly benefited from it early on and had it hurt his reputation later (like this season).

Lebron is an appeaser, he gives too much of a probably because he's actually a good guy (Cleveland move..). That will always hold him back compe ively tbh

You cannot do the "if not for" approach. If not for a lot of things a lot of great people would be unknowns.

Kobe never was the greatest player in the game, ever. Lebron has been for quite some time.

[Mr Bones]

First Lebron is not top 5, he's borderline top 10.
Second, Lebron > Kobe, and it's not even close. Rings as the 2nd best player on 4, or even all 5 of his les isn't as impressive as the clear cut best player on 2 les. 1 MVP is less than 4 MVPs.

Lebron is the better offensive player and defensive player, to wit:
ORtg of 116, high of 125 and low of 99 (as a rookie), and this is without Shaq and MVP to pass to.
DRtg of 97, high of 92 and low of 102. Again, without players like Shaq, MVPau and Bynum protecting the paint. He didn't even have perimeter defenders of Ariza or MWP to offset his weakness.
WS/48 of .248, high of .322. FOUR seasons of .298 or higher. Led the league in WS/48 and WS 5 times, OWS 4 times, and had DWS of > 5 4 times.
Led the league in OBPM AND BPM8 times, with 5 seasons of > 10.
Led the league in VORP 8 times, with 5 seasons of > 8.

Kobe?
Ortg of 111, high of 115 and low of 96 (this year, not including the injured year last year).
Drt of 105, high of 98 and low of 111

Never led the league in ANY advanced stats other than usage rate.
Kobe's WS/48 high of .224 isn't even close to Lebron AVERAGE, in fact Lebron topped that 8 out of 12 seasons. His average of .178 is lower than Lebrons worst season (this year) outside of his rookie year.
One of the greatest offensive players in league history? He never even led the league in OWS, OBPM, or ORtg, and this is playing his entire prime in the most perimeter friendly era in NBA history. OBPM high of 7? Lebron bested that in 7 seasons, and the only reason it wasn't 8 seasons was because of the lockout year.
One of the greatest perimeter defenders? Kobe had a DBPM of less than zero in 13 out of his 19 seasons.
His best OPM was 5.9 (note that is less than his OBPM of 7, meaning that he put up a NEGATIVE in DBPM that year, which means that he can't defend when he has to score a lot)? Lebron bested that in EVERY SINGLE YEAR except his rookie season.
VORP high of 6.8? Lebron bested that in every single year except his rookie year, and this year, which isn't even finished and Lebron has a chance of surpassing it if he starts trying.

Lebron also smokes Kobe in pretty much every single basic stat category, including scoring.

Kobe vs. Lebron is dead. Kobe is actually a LOT more comparable to Paul Pierce. Kobe is better offensively, Pierce better defensively.. Both remained productive until old age, but the main difference being Pierce spending most of his prime next to Antoine Walker, while Kobe get to spend his with Shaq.

I'd say if you replace Kobe with Pierce, Allen, T Mac, Vince Carter, or Latrell Spreewell in 2000, 2001, and 2002, the Lakers still win, thanks to Shaq. He was an unstoppable force for those years, with three straight Finals MVPs.

[Mr Bones]

...ring count is also irrelevant, too

It's not an either/or stat. It matters, but doesn't matter more than the totality of a player's legacy. It's certainly not "irrelevant." There's a pretty strong correlation between players considered all time greats and rings. I don't know of a single ringless player who is in the conversation for greatest player ever... do you?

[Malik Hairston]

It's not an either/or stat. It matters, but doesn't matter more than the totality of a player's legacy. It's certainly not "irrelevant." There's a pretty strong correlation between players considered all time greats and rings. I don't know of a single ringless player who is in the conversation for greatest player ever... do you?

I agree, I meant that it's irrelevant when you're discussing All-Time greats of this magnitude, since it's assumed they already have at least 1 ring, usually 2, to be in the discussion..

The difference between 2 rings and 6 rings is irrelevant IMO, as it's largely based on cir stance..maybe there are exceptions like Dad Killer, but a lot of these other players have rings where they weren't the clear-cut #1 guy(Kobe for 3 of his, Duncan in 2014, Shaq in 2006, Kareem, etc)..

[Mr Bones]

I agree, I meant that it's irrelevant when you're discussing All-Time greats of this magnitude, since it's assumed they already have at least 1 ring, usually 2, to be in the discussion..

The difference between 2 rings and 6 rings is irrelevant IMO, as it's largely based on cir stance..maybe there are exceptions like Dad Killer, but a lot of these other players have rings where they weren't the clear-cut #1 guy(Kobe for 3 of his, Duncan in 2014, Shaq in 2006, Kareem, etc)..

[Brazil]

^ Duncan in 2014 is arguable tbh.. On the finals Ya clear cut guy is Kawhi but overall Duncan led the Spurs in almost all stat lines... Spurs 2014 is all about team so I get the not being clear cut but Duncan was the best player of the 5 rings.

[Cry Havoc]

I agree, I meant that it's irrelevant when you're discussing All-Time greats of this magnitude, since it's assumed they already have at least 1 ring, usually 2, to be in the discussion..

The difference between 2 rings and 6 rings is irrelevant IMO, as it's largely based on cir stance..maybe there are exceptions like Dad Killer, but a lot of these other players have rings where they weren't the clear-cut #1 guy(Kobe for 3 of his, Duncan in 2014, Shaq in 2006, Kareem, etc)..

I think Duncan was CLEARLY the best Spur throughout last year's playoff run, and even deserved FMVP consideration.

[Malik Hairston]

You could argue that Duncan was the best player, but there's no argument that he was the "clear" best player..

Most consistent is probably a more accurate argument, tbh..

The 2014 Spurs were the most team-oriented squad in NBA history, statistically..they were probably the most versatile team of all-time, too, able to play at different tempos, able to go defense or offense(Manu instead of DG, Diaw instead of Splitter, etc), able to attack you through the post or perimeter(Duncan/Diaw/Leonard or Manu/Parker/Mills/Green)..