and without Bowen we get swept that year
And they may well win that series if they had had 2014 playoffs Splitter instead of Bowen. , they may have won with 2007 Jack. That's what I find so comical is that you literally had another SF do a better job on Dirk the following year.and without Bowen we get swept that year
A couple things. Bowen had a prime TD behind him. That allowed him to be aggressive. Green and KL have a slower TD that can't defend at an elite level. (He's still good though).
Green guards the full court well. I don't remember Bowen making as many plays on fast breaks. I don't remember Bruce being that fast on the break.
Also, bringing offense into this thread is a bad idea. Bruce had a roll in a different offense. He was never asked to do more.
Green started his career as a first option several years before Bowen. Same with KL. Everyone expects KL to improve. Green, maybe not.But it it's likely both will last longer as a prime defender than Bowen did.
Bowen and green are less injury prone than KL.
Finally, green will likely never be as strong as Bowen. KL was always stronger than both. In basketball, size and length matter, so when you say KL is the best defender on the team it's not a controversial take. When you debate overall skill, intelligence, and instinct , I'd say green , Bowen, kl.
I love Bowen but he was just another 3-and-D guy - pretty much one-dimensional on offense. He had the corner threes and nothing else. IMO, Green fills that role better than Bowen ever did. When Danny's on fire, the Spurs offense looks unbeatable. I've never seen that from Bruce. Bowen probably has the edge on defense though.
And current Kawhi is better than Bowen has ever been. He can score/rebound/defend...calling him well rounded is an understatement. Replace 2006 Bowen with this year's Leonard and Spurs more than likely beat the Mavs in six games and go on to win the le.
^^ Yep..and I loved Bowen as much as anybody, but as the poster above said, he had prime Duncan, and even had prime Alonzo Mourning in Miami, too..
Green and Leonard have displayed elite-level defense in key playoff games vs. the best players in the NBA, despite having a 37-year old Duncan and a non-rim protecting Splitter as their anchors..not to mention, as Ringo pointed out, Green is levels better as a shooter, and Leonard is just a much better all-around player..
Duncan's defense in 13 was actually pretty close to prime levels, and you forget to mention that the old Spurs and Heat were not nearly as deep as the Spurs have been.
I'm not suggesting he is the better player than Leonard, but I think their defense is close with a slight edge to Bowen. I don't think Danny is necessarily a "better player" but I think he's more impactful offensively because of his abilities.
We can put it this way. Green and Leonard have never had defensive playoff series bad enough to be close to Bowen's defensive 'gems'. It's seriously like Usain Bolt vs Boy Hayes here.
Bowen was probably the best PG defender the Spurs have ever had, that is where he really excelled, much like Green. One thing he lacked was size and strength, that hurt him the most against bigger players. Bowen was a great great defensive player, but wasn't perfect.
Leonard and Green are no scrubs, one of the best defensive combos I've ever seen on the perimeter, so versatile.
Nostalgia
I'm a huge Bowen fan but if I wanted a 3 and D guy I would take Green 10/10...
It's re ed to compare Kawhi and Bowen since kawhi is league above Bowen as a player..not even xlose.
Leonard has been matched up with many 4's this year, many teams lack the personnel to guard him so they just put the biggest, strongest, most agile guy on him to guard him. Still able to pull down 8 RPG against them, he's done just fine. He can't lock down 4's but he can make life for them.
Leonard used to struggle somewhat with quicker PGs and SGs, but it is obvious he is not this year, he's been on lock down mode against almost every guy he's guarding. This is one of the first off season's he has had to workout, I am noticing a huge difference in his explosiveness.
Leonard is shifting his feet far faster, he' more explosive allowing to go for steals, he can now push up above the 3pt line and apply pressure without getting burned laterally because he's so much faster laterally, that's why you're seeing so many steals this year. Just gonna keep getting better. He's also much bigger and stronger so he can guard bigger guys without much problem.
I love Bruce Bowen, but Kawhi and Green bring so many other skills to the table..
It's not about who is better. Bowen had a lot of success. Period. Leonard and Green are different players. Leonard at times is easily the best of the 3. Hopefully he continues on and has a great career.
I was there with season tickets back in the day, and I still think Bowen was the top defender of his type the Spurs ever had. He just was very intense and able to disrupt, resorting to whatever it took. I'm talking about 2002-2005 prime Bowen. Even in 2007 he matched ip against Lebron and had a great series.
Can't we just appreciate all the great Spurs players and only trash those who deserve it like Jefferson.
One thing I give Bowen the edge on is that he had the ability to get underneath guy's skin. Bowen had that nastiness which I think Green or Kawhi will never possess but then again they don't need it to be successful.
In 2003 Bowen defended Kobe. In 2005 it was Steve Nash, and in 2007 he took on Lebron. All three of those rings were partly due to Bowen being the guy who matched up against the other teams best scorer.
What's funny about that statement do you actually believe that Green and Kawhi or more nasty than Bowen or have his ability to get underneath people's skins?
In 2014 Kawhi defended Lebron and won FMVP. Both were/are great players.
IMO Leonard's help defense is what makes him so great, his length is a big asset in being able to help so much off his guy but he's also great at closing out on a shot without losing control. He's very good fundamentally. From a strictly defensive standpoint it really depends on what team is around them and the opponents they're playing against.
If you look at it from a statistical POV:
Bowen:
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 1 (97 in 03-04)
Defensive WS/48, best 3 seasons: .084 (03-04), .073 (04-05), .078 (05-06)
Kawhi:
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 2* (99 in 12-13, 98 in 13-14. *He is at 97 so far this season)
Defensive WS/48, first 3 seasons: .075 (11-12), .088 (12-13), .097 (13-14) (so far this season .098)
Statistically Bowen > Green from a defensive standpoint. Green has 0 sub 100 Drtg seasons and last season was his first great DWS/48 season (.081), this season he has been better.
Now Timmy >>>>>>>>>>>>> all 3.
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 15, 1 sub 90 season (89 in 03-04)
Defensive WS/48, I'd have to look at his worst seasons for the others to be comparable (.095, .089, .089, .085 years 08-12 every other season is higher than .100), Duncan's best 3: .137 (03-04), .124 (04-05), .120 (06-07)
That '07 Cavs team was very easy to game plan against though, Lebron was 30-40lbs lighter than he would be back in '07 too, had prime Duncan backing Bowen up (Somewhat still in his prime). Pop taught Brown everything he knew, ran circles around him easily. Spacing was horrible, very few 3pt shooters, or shooters in general, they were heavily inexperienced too. Terrible team in general.
Compare that to the Heat with Lebron around 270lbs in his prime, much better supporting cast and even coach (at least better than Brown). I don't think Bowen would fare nearly as well.
That 2007 Cavs team beat a pretty good Detroit team because no one could stop Lebron. Then in game 1 Bowen put the clamp down.
Love Bowen. I'm excited that Danny and Kawhi are better.
Ugh. DRtg is a horrible, horrible stat to compare perimeter defenders. It favors rebounding, blocks and steals over solid D. Also, it's heavily influenced by team DRtg. Kawhi has a great DRtg because he's a great rebounder. Bowen's rating is because the Spurs were an unreal team defense that year (because offenses were worse). That doesn't mean that he wasn't a better defender (he wasn't, but that stat doesn't mean that). He just didn't play enough like a big man.
Win-shares are based on ORtg and DRtg. They suffer the same problems. If you want to make a real statistical comparison, you'll need to find better stats.
shhh don't bring logic into this young spursfan's thread. they probably were on their momma's when that happened.
If you watched the 07 finals you'd know that it was the spurs team defense not Bowen who stopped lebron. The spurs would pack the paint and throw constant double teams at lebron.
most of the time you see Bruce getting beat here till a prime Duncan or teammate comes over and helps
I did watch the finals that year and Bowen played great defense that series. Anyway 2007 was past Bowen's prime.
wake me up when our soft young wings start laying s on the parque like this bad mofo
it's called toughness. something we lack
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