NBA: Pop vs. Zen Master Coaching Trees

[KaiRMD1]

Where's Derek Fisher?

[DMC]

Ok fair enough with the wins part. But Pop still wins since he got the most out of what was offered to him in lesser quan y. But wins/regular season records alone don't measure who's better.

Now you go in-depth, like I said, what has Brown done in your own terms "Transformation of teams" that Pop hasn't? To reverse things around, what has Pop done that Brown hasn't? Has Brown coached a team with the best player being as important as the 8th guy in the rotation? Has Brown coached a team as dominating as last year's Spurs? You can't rebutt that because he simply hasn't yet, and I doubt he will.

No one has. You cannot tell me Patty Mills is as important as Tim Duncan. Never has been. Brown coached the Pistons who shared the ball and played their bench. They had 4 guys make the all star game one year, if that tells you anything. None of them were superstars.

I'd say the 2004 Pistons were pretty dominating. They destroyed the Lakers, a much stronger team than what Miami had last year. Like SA they made it B2B and they had to beat Lebron to get there.

You can also go with rings, h2h match-ups etc. 5>1, and Pop beat him in 05.

Phil destroyed Pop.
Phil 11 Pop 5

Phil is not a better coach than Pop. Phil is not a better coach than Pat Riley.

The rings argument is easily defeated.

I'll give the college accomplishment to Brown, no problem. Consensus of peers can be pretty cliche but whatever both of them receive the same level of respect anyway.

Brown is a disciple of Dean Smith, who is a disciple of Phog Allen, who is a disciple of James Naismith. James didn't have a coach.

If you take all of these into consideration, since it's pretty dumb to choose who's greater with just 1 category, then I don't know how one can take Brown over Pop.

Because Brown is retired and because Brown didn't ride out the success he created at these franchises.

All these teams he turned around, taking some to their first ever playoff appearances. He turned the Jayhawks around as well. When a guy can turn a team around like that, and do it multiple times in various cities with a myriad of different pieces, there's something to him. Pop might be able to do that, but we'll never know. Pop has had the luxury of being coach and president of basketball operations since he fired Bob Hill, so never had to answer to his president of basketball operations. He's had a GM who played with Larry Brown in Kansas in RC, and he's had an owner who let him coach without being a Mark Cuban or Jim Buss type owner. There are a lot of cir stances surrounding the success of Gregg Popovich that many here either are ignorant of or have forgotten or just don't care due to homerism, but Pop has been able to lay in the bed he made, and had to freedom to make it how he saw fit. Even then, I'd put him 1b, not 2. That's only considering how good of a coach they are, not necessarily how well they did as a coach. I just think it's easier to pick out Larry's success since it followed him and he moved enough to make it obvious. I can understand if you don't however.

[CitizenDwayne]

Larry Brown would tell you Pop is the greatest coach of all time

Actually he would probably use some racial slur, then tell you to off

[DMC]

Actually he would probably use some racial slur, then tell you to off

Which one? I've known Larry for a long time, never heard him utter a racial slur. I doubt Pop uses them either. OHHHH you were trying to be funny.

[CitizenDwayne]

I've known Larry for a long time

Do tell.

In all seriousness though, Brown is an absolute mastermind when it comes to Xs and Os, but in my opinion his greatness takes a hit when you consider that he just hops from team to team, never really settling down for any period of time (I could be wrong, but I think his current stint at Southern Methodist is his longest reign as coach, and it's not like he's accomplished a great deal there).

[CitizenDwayne]

And no I wasn't really trying to be funny, I just know of Brown as a hardass taskmaster with an abusive streak. Can't see him showering acclaim on anyone else, even a protege of his

[DMC]

And no I wasn't really trying to be funny, I just know of Brown as a hardass taskmaster with an abusive streak. Can't see him showering acclaim on anyone else, even a protege of his

He is a hard ass, but you said "racial slur". There's a huge difference. Pop is no Mr Rogers.

[CitizenDwayne]

He is a hard ass, but you said "racial slur". There's a huge difference. Pop is no Mr Rogers.

I'm aware of that, but considering Sean Elliott's issues with Brown and his weird relationship with AI, I think there's more ammo against him that against Pop, about whom just about no former player has had anything negative to say.

Also, let us not forget that for a pretty substantial period of time Brown was nothing but George Karl essentially, hopping from one team to the next, improving them but not accomplishing . If not for Danny Manning, we would not even be having this discussion.

[ElNono]

I think Pop > Larry, but Larry is a phenomenal coach that won both at the college and pro levels, and that was successful in almost every team he coached. Not just the Pistons, but also took a team like Charlotte and put them in the playoffs.

His main drawback is that he wants constant challenges, so it's difficult for him to stick around one place for too long.

He's a HoF coach, no doubt about it. He's up there with other legendary coaches like Don Nelson (another coach Pop has said many times he's taken things from).

[DMC]

I'm aware of that, but considering Sean Elliott's issues with Brown and his weird relationship with AI, I think there's more ammo against him that against Pop, about whom just about no former player has had anything negative to say.

Also, let us not forget that for a pretty substantial period of time Brown was nothing but George Karl essentially, hopping from one team to the next, improving them but not accomplishing . If not for Danny Manning, we would not even be having this discussion.

How can you improve a team and at the same time not accomplish anything? Improvement is an accomplishment. If you judge coaches by rings, Phil is the greatest ever. What coach has ever won multiple les by taking ty teams from rags to riches in only a few seasons, over and over?

[DMC]

I think Pop > Larry, but Larry is a phenomenal coach that won both at the college and pro levels, and that was successful in almost every team he coached. Not just the Pistons, but also took a team like Charlotte and put them in the playoffs.

His main drawback is that he wants constant challenges, so it's difficult for him to stick around one place for too long.

He's a HoF coach, no doubt about it. He's up there with other legendary coaches like Don Nelson (another coach Pop has said many times he's taken things from).

There's a difference between being successful and being the catalyst for success. Larry was the latter. Barry Switzer was successful, but he inherited a champion and could only it up. Larry adopted broken teams and fixed them.

Purely from a coaching standpoint, it's hard to beat Larry. What Pop has done will probably never be done again in our lifetimes by any other coach, but the Spurs have been on the precipice for many years, and at times they've broken through. Last year they happened to have a battering ram. Pop didn't make them shoot like that. You have to give the Spurs organization credit for the entire package from drafting to training to execution. Pop is a huge part of that, but he's not the only part of it. Larry, for the most part, went into situations that didn't have that kind of foundation and he changed it.

I guess it comes down to what you consider coaching to be. I know one thing, if either Pop or Larry ever writes a book about their careers, I'll buy it.