Put Up or Shut Up--Kawhi Leonard: Franchise Player or Not?

[MateoNeygro]

Good thread though. Actually basketball talk. Not name calling and bull .

[Horse]

Let's not forget he improves every season and effects the defensive side of the ball like no one else in the league. So I can't ever see him scoring 30 a game but if hardon can play no D and get mvp consideration why can't kawhi shut players down and cause havoc in the passing lanes and get some love for it.

[wildchild]

He really isn't yet imo, Marion was a 21/12/3/2/1 kinda guy in his prime, we can hope Leonard gets to those numbers in the future. But to claim he is already better than prime Matrix is just silly.

Well, like said before, it's all about context.
Marion averaged those numbers playing more than 40mpg for a run & gun team...A lot of offensive possessions and more playing time necessarily mean get more opportunities to score more points.
Considering the different types of offenses, we can't compare the players using their ppg stats but we can evaluate their impact on their teams and the game.
Kawhi's impact is bigger -and more successful- than Marion's influence on his team.

[KL2]

I'm really happy for your points, and I'ma let you finish, but there are three issues:

First, the post you quoted was explaining what a tweet said. Refuting the tweet doesn't in anyway negate the fact that that was what the tweet said.

Second, no number of excuses/explanations for Leonard's poor driving rate. The fact is, he hasn't been very efficient in that regard.

Each time he's come back from injury he's struggled making easy shots, point blank shots. He's had an eye injury and a broken hand, the effects lingering for months, you don't just go back to the player you were before the injury. It takes time to get used to the speed of the game, get your shot mechanics back down (especially after you haven't used your hand for a month), get your handles, conditioning, etc. everything feels really weird when you come back.

Finally, let's just go over some of your points:



Hurt Kawhi is just this season's Kawhi. While he may be dealing with issues, he is what he is this season. If he's too hurt to make open layups, he shouldn't be taking them. I do think it's disingenuous to only mention his injury when he's being criticized, though.

He shouldn't be taking layups so he should stick to jump shots? Leonard needs to regain his rhythm ( from injury), he's not missing layups because a defender is forcing him into missing them, he's missing them because he's missing them, the chances or him making those shots are extremely high. He's made them in years past, still has been making them when he's been healthy this year.

How can you blame everyone else for Kawhi but not see that he's also a reason why everyone else is out of rhythm? I agree he's had games where he's been unreal, but he's also had games where he's just straight broken the offense. I certainly don't think Leonard has been horrible overall, but he also hasn't been consistent in his offensive impact.

Part of it is lack of chemistry, it's a learning process, much of these drives will fail because of this, that alone will affect his shooting %. Everybody should know by now though, when you see Leonard in the paint or driving, clear out. Still, his teammates continue to make the same mistake of crowding him, drawing their defenders into him, forcing Leonard into low % shots. Those mistakes fall on Leonard's teammates.

I feel like I'd need to see that substantiated a bit more. Parker started off the season unreal from three, and we all know about what Danny was doing. I think Leonard had issues with spacing, but they weren't just all on his teammates.


As I touched on above, Leonard has issues with spacing that aren't his teammates' faults. Of course his inside game is weak with two bigs; he's in their territory. It's hard for a three to post up with two inside bigs next to him. He's also not adept at running the PnR, so there usually isn't a big who is away from the paint to set a screen. Also, Leonard tends to drive after pausing, which allows defenders to get back into position.

They are his teammates fault when they actually run towards Leonard, crowd him. I think his teammates think they're helping, but the reality is they're hurting. Bonner, Duncan, Baynes, etc. sometimes they're nowhere near him in the paint and they'll run towards him, it neutralizes Leonard, happens all the time.

It has gotten better as the year has progressed, as his teammates have simply gotten better.


Injury to both him and his teammates, lack of chemistry from injury, Spurs trying to learn to play around Leonard, all those factor into his low driving %. It's not like he's missing these shots lately though, just jumpers.

I don't understand why Pop doesn't put him in more PandR, he's a very underrated passer. He's had some great passing games this year which weren't flukes. Especially in the beginning of the year, he would've been averaging something like 5 apg if Diaw, Anderson, Daye, Belli, etc. had been knocking down those wide open 3's. From the small sample size I've seen, he's great at it.


Btw I think the pause you're referring to is him creating space through bodily contact, he throws his body into the defender, knocks them off balance neutralizing their shot blocking ability, creates space for an easy layup.

[dabom]

Each time he's come back from injury he's struggled making easy shots, point blank shots. He's had an eye injury and a broken hand, the effects lingering for months, you don't just go back to the player you were before the injury. It takes time to get used to the speed of the game, get your shot mechanics back down (especially after you haven't used your hand for a month), get your handles, conditioning, etc. everything feels really weird when you come back.




He shouldn't be taking layups so he should stick to jump shots? Leonard needs to regain his rhythm ( from injury), he's not missing layups because a defender is forcing him into missing them, he's missing them because he's missing them, the chances or him making those shots are extremely high. He's made them in years past, still has been making them when he's been healthy this year.



Part of it is lack of chemistry, it's a learning process, much of these drives will fail because of this, that alone will affect his shooting %. Everybody should know by now though, when you see Leonard in the paint or driving, clear out. Still, his teammates continue to make the same mistake of crowding him, drawing their defenders into him, forcing Leonard into low % shots. Those mistakes fall on Leonard's teammates.




They are his teammates fault when they actually run towards Leonard, crowd him. I think his teammates think they're helping, but the reality is they're hurting. Bonner, Duncan, Baynes, etc. sometimes they're nowhere near him in the paint and they'll run towards him, it neutralizes Leonard, happens all the time.

It has gotten better as the year has progressed, as his teammates have simply gotten better.


Injury to both him and his teammates, lack of chemistry from injury, Spurs trying to learn to play around Leonard, all those factor into his low driving %. It's not like he's missing these shots lately though, just jumpers.

I don't understand why Pop doesn't put him in more PandR, he's a very underrated passer. He's had some great passing games this year which weren't flukes. Especially in the beginning of the year, he would've been averaging something like 5 apg if Diaw, Anderson, Daye, Belli, etc. had been knocking down those wide open 3's. From the small sample size I've seen, he's great at it.


Btw I think the pause you're referring to is him creating space through bodily contact, he throws his body into the defender, knocks them off balance neutralizing their shot blocking ability, creates space for an easy layup.

Maybe next year he develops his PnR game. I can already hear. "o no, pop stop giving kawhi PnRs he suxs"

[Chinook]

Each time he's come back from injury he's struggled making easy shots, point blank shots. He's had an eye injury and a broken hand, the effects lingering for months, you don't just go back to the player you were before the injury. It takes time to get used to the speed of the game, get your shot mechanics back down (especially after you haven't used your hand for a month), get your handles, conditioning, etc. everything feels really weird when you come back.

For the most part, I agree, but I do think you missed his return from injury last season. Dude had no problem finding his game then.

He shouldn't be taking layups so he should stick to jump shots? Leonard needs to regain his rhythm ( from injury), he's not missing layups because a defender is forcing him into missing them, he's missing them because he's missing them, the chances or him making those shots are extremely high. He's made them in years past, still has been making them when he's been healthy this year.

Again, I find it disingenuous that he's only healthy when he plays well. Regardless, no, Kawhi shouldn't more jumpers if he can't score on drives. He should just not shoot as much in general.

Part of it is lack of chemistry, it's a learning process, much of these drives will fail because of this, that alone will affect his shooting %. Everybody should know by now though, when you see Leonard in the paint or driving, clear out. Still, his teammates continue to make the same mistake of crowding him, drawing their defenders into him, forcing Leonard into low % shots. Those mistakes fall on Leonard's teammates.

They are his teammates fault when they actually run towards Leonard, crowd him. I think his teammates think they're helping, but the reality is they're hurting. Bonner, Duncan, Baynes, etc. sometimes they're nowhere near him in the paint and they'll run towards him, it neutralizes Leonard, happens all the time.

The bolded part to me represents where I find fault in your reasoning. The Spurs play two bigs. In those cases, them "clearing out" does next to nothing, because their men can sag off them. This is the main reason why the Heat had to move toward floor-spacing bigs. The Spurs simply will not do that for Kawhi. And they shouldn't. That move sacrifices defense and rebounding, which are critical to the team's success. The only way for insides bigs to affect a play is to be inside: hanging around for a board or setting a screen. Of course they're going to get into the paint when Kawhi is at the elbow or short corner. They're doing their jobs on offense.

Again, you make it sound like everyone needs to figure out how to get Kawhi touches, and that completely takes Leonard's burden away. Kawhi has to learn how to play with two inside bigs. That means not constantly posting up when he doesn't have a mismatch. That means not driving without the proper movement to open a lane. That means not shooting a three any team he touches the bad beyond the arc. Those things are just poor shot selection, regardless of teammates. The Spurs' offense was dynamic without Kawhi doing his Melo impression, so why on Earth should it grind to a halt for him this season?

Instead, the Spurs need to figure out how to get Leonard good touches. I've said that countless times. A simple 1/3 PnR would do wonders for giving Leonard a mismatch. The Lebron Heat and OKC did it all the time last season. Or curl plays to give him open mid-range shots. Or even the Loop, which would give him the ball at the elbow with a ton of movement and a trailing defender. These are plays that the team needs to add to their arsenal. Simply telling Kawhi to shoot whenever he has the ball is irresponsible.

I don't think we're far apart on this, really. I agree the Spurs aren't doing everything they need to for Kawhi to be at his best. But I also don't think Kawhi's doing everything he needs to be the best he can be in the role allotted for him.

[apalisoc_9]

Regardless of who you are, post ups should always be selective. It's pops call though as weve seen him post up bigger players numerous times this year after the timeout or half time. My guess, its a self development things.

But advocating less shots for a player who barely shots over 12 times is funny and ridiculous.

[dabom]

Regardless of who you are, post ups should always be selective. It's pops call though as weve seen him post up bigger players numerous times this year after the timeout or half time. My guess, its a self development things.

But advocating less shots for a player who barely shots over 12 times is funny and ridiculous.

enrique s. cleveland fans

[Aztecfan03]

Kobe shot a record worrst 1-14 in 2013 vs the Spurs (thanks to Danny Green's D ), but he's a franchise player .. :

Does it really seem like that long ago to you? It was this season.

[milkyway21]

Does it really seem like that long ago to you? It was this season.

Yeah at the start of 2014-15 season : Nov 2014.
Fixed.

[TrainOfThought5]

Some all time terrible takes here. Will bump again after the playoffs.

[100%duncan]

Lol poops czar

[still.focused]

Basing Kawhis output on numbers doesnt get you the whole picture
We dont know because what hes capable of on offense because hes literally the 4th option, playing with 3 HOFs will do that
Jimmy Butler never becomes Jimmy Butler if DRose never gets injured
Defensively there isnt a stat for how much of a disturbance he causes to another team but it definitely affects the game
This is the reason hes prolly gonna get snubbed for DPOY
His number are easily eclipse by his impact but we cant depend on the media to watch all the Spurs games

[TampaDude]

Folks, when Timmy retires, Kawhi IS going to be a franchise player...OURS.

[SASdynasty!]

Kawhi is a franchise/max player. Pay the man.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Can we get a lotto pick for him?

We ARE going to be bad next year (and this year lol) and probably the next 2-3 years.

Question is, can we stack and properly use a bunch of early picks?


Realistically, what could we get for Kawhi?

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

series average for a certain starting guard

[dabom]

Top 10 player in the game. NVM lets ride or die with porker.

[BatManu20]

Kawhi's 23 and nowhere near his prime.. and just won DPOY... he's shown flashes of what he's capable of, he just needs time to put it all together. Every great player does.

We shouldn't be relying on a 23 year old to lead us on both sides of the ball anyways. We should be relying on our MAX player PG who's been there before multiple times, and that's the truth.

[wildchild]

We should be relying on our MAX player PG who's been there before multiple times, and that's the truth.

Like he did in last WCF and Finals?.
It seems after last playoffs and this season that we can win without Tony, but we can't win without Kawhi playing a great level.

[midnightpulp]

People already melting down over one bad game from Kawhi (yeah, he didn't shoot well last game, but still impacted the game).

I remember Duncan going 3-14 for 9 points in '01 against the Lakers. It happens. However, Kawhi is going to need another creator alongside of him to max his offensive potential. Prime Parker could've been that player, but he's obviously done, and with no guards in the starting lineup that can take pressure off Kawhi, he's going to have a difficult time being a consistent 20-25ppg scorer. Durant, Lebron, and all the other top wings in the league are paired up with another dynamic guard.

That said, Kawhi deserves blame tonight, but he's still a star player and a max player.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Kawhi is a max player. At this point he is not a franchise player as he does not have the offensive ability to take over games on both sides of the court. Right now his liability is that he cannot dribble well enough in tight spaces. He also lacks the explosiveness to get to the rim if lane is crowded. This is why Pop still goes to Manu or Parker at end of games because they can dribble penetrate and either finish or make the pass to short corner to opposite side.

[RD2191]

Kawhi is a max player. At this point he is not a franchise player as he does not have the offensive ability to take over games on both sides of the court. Right now his liability is that he cannot dribble well enough in tight spaces. He also lacks the explosiveness to get to the rim if lane is crowded. This is why Pop still goes to Manu or Parker at end of games because they can dribble penetrate and either finish or make the pass to short corner to opposite side.

crofl

[Kool Bob Love]

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

series average for a certain starting guard