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top 10
Top 15? Top 20? Top 25? Curious to see peoples' opinions. I really think he's on the verge of top 15. He really almost has DPOTY-caliber impact defensively, and his offense is starting to come around as well. He's arguably the best rebounding wing in the league. I'm really not sure I could name 15 guys with more impact than him.
And I know this probably won't do anything ( , some will see this and then just do it out of spite), but please don't turn this into a comparison thread with Parker or Manu or any other dumb . I'm just interested to see where people rank him on a league-wide scale. Where would you put him? What players would you compare him with in terms of having similar impact?
top 10
Some nights he's top 50 at best, others he's top 10, maybe even top 5. It really varies.
When he's on though, there are probably only 2-3 other players in the league that can influence the game at both ends like he can. LeBron, Davis, that's pretty much it.
Well of course there is fluctuation. But as he's performed overall this season and how you predict he'll play going forward, where would you put him? There's obviously (in no order):
Lebron
KD
AD
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
CP3
Marc Gasol
Aldridge
After that, who would you definitively put ahead of Kawhi? You have guys like Griffin, Cousins, Butler, and Klay. Then you have a bunch of PGs like Wall, Irving, and Lillard. Not saying I'd put all these guys ahead of Kawhi btw, just listing possible names.
I wouldnt even put marc gasol over him tbh...randolph has been the best grizz in the lasr 40 games..gasol had a great stretch in the first 20 games though
When he's on top 10(finals). His usual, top 15 (RS)
I'd immediately remove Curry (no defense), Harden (average defense), Westbrook (cancer chucker), CP3 (can't take a game over offensively), Gasol (same), and Aldridge (reliant on jumpshot) from that equation. Harden is probably the one I'd consider keeping in because his defense HAS improved and he's obviously a nightmare to guard.
If Kawhi was in Super Kawhi mode all the time, he'd be a top 3-5 player in the league without question. Hopefully we'll see that some more in the playoffs.
Kawhi isn't in "Super Kawhi" mode all the time though. Obviously if he played every game like he did last night or in the 2014 Finals, he'd be a top 5 player. He doesn't though, and I doubt he ever will. He still has a lot of games where he's basically nonexistent on offense. Like I said, we're looking at his performance and impact as a whole...not at his absolute best.
I think it's pretty ludicrous to take Kawhi over those guys, and many of the things you said aren't even true. Curry is a solid defender at this point in his career. CP3 can absolutely take over games offensively (more so than Kawhi can, that's for sure). Westbrook is a "cancer"? Then how come OKC does so much better with him on the court?
OKC w/ Westbrook on the court: Net RTG = +6.0
OKC w/ Westbrook off the court: Net RTG = -1.1
Last edited by SpursFan86; 03-07-2015 at 12:51 PM.
Kawhi will never average more than 20ppg if he is playing with tony parker
I didn't say I'd take Kawhi over those guys. I said when he's on and playing well, he's almost unmatched in his ability to influence the game. Reading comprehension is important.
CP3 always struggles to take over games in the playoffs because he's a PG and easy to game plan for, and has never really developed enough of a skillset to be a force if you're taking away his passing lanes.
So you think CP3 could play LeBron head to head in a playoff series to a draw? Yeah, I doubt that very much.CP3 can absolutely take over games offensively (more so than Kawhi can, that's for sure).
Much like Harden, he's been better this season. I wouldn't by any means call him solid. And he has to do in the playoffs where teams are willing to exploit that mismatch.Curry is a solid defender at this point in his career.
Since when do cancers only concern stats? Sprewell was a great player, maybe more aptly so was Iverson. And they would routinely ignore teammates to the point of completely torpedoing their team. Westbrook chucks, screams at teammates, and generally destroys offensive rhythm. The cancer label is typically affixed to players who are good players but destroy locker rooms. Westbrook is a loose cannon and he's always going to shoot his team out of one or two games in a playoff series.Westbrook is a "cancer"? Then how come OKC does so much better with him on the court?
OKC w/ Westbrook on the court: Net RTG = +6.0
OKC w/ Westbrook off the court: Net RTG = -1.1
are you saying he needs to be set up with a traditional point guard? Anyway I'll take a 20 pnt average if he fills the stat sheet. I'll take it if Parker can be decent and score over 15 and if role players get double digits we should be fine.
If I didn't know better I'd say your are endorsing iso-ball to get big numbers. It's hard to get high scoring without being an elite shooter, being ball dominant, or being iso-heavy.
He's 10-15. He loses 5 spots for being injured. Even though he's very talented he's got play the entire season at an all star level before we start anointing him top 10.
Just don't respond to him. His IQ is too low to be reasoned with.
... curry is by no means a great defender, but he's a good defender. this is supported by virtual every defensive stat and advanced stat (including on/off figures)
you cant just remove players because they have a flaw. kawhi has flaws too. so does durant. not to mention, many of these are just wrong. CP3 can take games over offensively... and he did so recently agains us. marc gasol is as capable of taking over offensively as kawhi is. he scores more easily and is also a better passer. why does aldridge's source of scoring remove him from a list? if he scores, he scores. he's done so effectively even in the playoffs (look no further than last year). you can argue that aldridge isn't better than kawhi (i wouldn't necessarily agree), but you need a better reason than that.Harden (average defense), Westbrook (cancer chucker), CP3 (can't take a game over offensively), Gasol (same), and Aldridge (reliant on jumpshot) from that equation
this could be said about a lot of playersIf Kawhi was in Super Kawhi mode all the time, he'd be a top 3-5 player in the league without question
I specifically said in this thread that I'm talking about ranking him on his overall play, NOT on how he plays at his best. Please don't insult my reading comprehension for assuming you would actually answer the relevant topic. I replied to your first post with:
"Well of course there is fluctuation. But as he's performed overall this season and how you predict he'll play going forward, where would you put him?"
So why you would continue to talk about how he plays at his best is beyond me. I'm not asking where Kawhi ranks when he's at his best. I'm asking where you'd rank him overall, based on his play as a whole. Westbrook at his best can give you 50/15/15 - but he won't do that on average.
When did I ever argue CP3 could guard LeBron? You said CP3 can't take over games offensively. That's a joke, especially when you're comparing him to Kawhi (a guy who averages 15 ppg on average efficiency this year). I disagreed and responded by saying CP3 is far more capable of taking over games offensively than Kawhi...and now you bring up how CP3 can't keep up with LeBron? Kawhi didn't keep up with him btw. Kawhi averaged 18 points on 75 TS% against LeBron...LeBron scored 28 ppg on 68 TS%. The main difference was how all of our role players played fantastic, and everyone outside of LeBron disappeared for Miami.
As for Curry, he's absolutely a solid defender. Anyone who has actually watched the Warriors this year will tell you that, and the stats back it up as well. He's not a negative on defense. If you want to continue basing your opinions off how he played in years past, be my guest. He's not a bad defender at this point.
You said Westbrook is a cancer. This implies he hurts his team. So how come the team does noticeably better when he's on the court? That makes no sense. If you look at the 76ers w/ Iverson, they often did just as well when he went to the bench. That's not the case at all with OKC. You say he "disrupts offensive rhythm"? When he's playing, OKC's offensive rating is 111. When he's not playing, their offensive rating is 100. He can be a chucker, yes. He will have games where he shoots them out of winning, yes. But 1) it's not like Kawhi shows up every game either, and 2) Westbrook will have games where he single-handedly wins the game for them. The amount of pressure he puts on teams is ridiculous, and he's one of the most unguardable players in the league. You seriously think, on average, Kawhi has more of an impact on games than Westbrook?
Last edited by SpursFan86; 03-07-2015 at 01:49 PM.
I amended that. Curry has been decent on D this year. However it's the regular season and he's playing in front of an ELITE defensive unit in Thompson (very good), Green (Elite) and Bogut (Elite).
I qualified my statement by talking about Kawhi at his peak performance.you cant just remove players because they have a flaw.
lol regular season.CP3 can take games over offensively... and he did so recently agains us.
Really? This is a source of confusion? Aldridge is a monster big and one of my favorite players, but his jump shot is NOT an efficient shot, especially in comparison to doing work in the post and getting dunks and fouls on the other bigs. One of the primary reasons the Spurs killed the Blazers last year in the playoffs is because Portland had no one to pass the ball to to dictate pace. That's (among other things) why post-up bigs are so valuable. You can stick ANY big on LMA if he's going to settle for a 15 footer. Even if he's hitting, it doesn't warp the defense to respond to that. You box out and board the miss.why does aldridge's source of scoring remove him from a list? if he scores, he scores. he's done so effectively even in the playoffs (look no further than last year). you can argue that aldridge isn't better than kawhi (i wouldn't necessarily agree), but you need a better reason than that.
If LMA is posting up effectively it's a completely different story. No defense worth their salt is going to continually give a post player those looks inside because they're too close to the rim and too high %. So whenever he gets the ball deep he would command a double team or at least a hedge down from the wing. This frees up shooters and allows the ball movement to beat the defense.
Additionally, it gives them the option to go into the post whenever they're struggling to score and grit out a bucket or foul. There's a reason Duncan was unguardable for a long time after his athleticism left him. Because he knew how to post up and force defenses to collapse and adapt, or 1v1 he's going to torch the other guy with either a bucket or a foul whenever he catches the ball near the rim.
There are probably no more than 6-7 players in the NBA that can be called elite on both defense and offense, even on their best day. Leonard is one of them. Why is Jordan the GOAT? Because he was elite on both sides of the ball, nearly all the time.this could be said about a lot of players
So you're asking about potential, then you lambaste me for rating Kawhi BASED ON HIS POTENTIAL? Are you daft? Do you even realize the context of the question you're asking? I embiggened some of the words so you'll maybe read what you yourself wrote as well as what I'm typing now.
No, you're asking how I would rate him overall AND asking how he'll play going forward. Those are two different questions, especially when you're asking them about someone who's just a couple years removed from not being able to purchase alcohol.So why you would continue to talk about how he plays at his best is beyond me. I'm not asking where Kawhi ranks when he's at his best. I'm asking where you'd rank him overall, based on his play as a whole. Westbrook at his best can give you 50/15/15 - but he won't do that on average.
I wasn't saying that CP3 would guard LeBron. I said "play him to a draw" as in, have an equal game to LeBron. Paul will never do that, he's not the dual court influence on the game that LeBron is. I enjoy Paul's game as well sans the whining but pretending like he's some amazing offensive player -- well, he is, but not in the playoffs. He completely fell apart in crunch time last year. You guys are trying to talk Paul up like he's ever done anything in the playoffs. The dude has an absurdly talented roster and has never made the finals and have never even made the conference finals. If Paul could take games over, the Clippers would have a Finals berth by now if not a playoff banner.When did I ever argue CP3 could guard LeBron? You said CP3 can't take over games offensively. That's a joke, especially when you're comparing him to Kawhi (a guy who averages 15 ppg on average efficiency this year). I disagreed and responded by saying CP3 is far more capable of taking over games offensively than Kawhi...and now you bring up how CP3 can't guard LeBron? I never said CP3 has the defensive impact as Kawhi (although CP3 is one of the best PG defenders out there). You made a statement, I responded, and then you bring up a completely different point out of nowhere and act like I argued it. Seriously?
Regular season doesn't mean anything. He has to be a good defender in the playoffs when teams are game-planning around exploiting that matchup. He also plays alongside two elite defenders and one very good defender which helps him a lot.As for Curry, he's absolutely a solid defender. Anyone who has actually watched the Warriors this year will tell you that, and the stats back it up as well. He's not a negative on defense. If you want to continue basing your opinions off how he played in years past, be my guest. He's not a bad defender at this point.
You're arguing past my point. Kawhi will never shoot his team out of a game, and will never go after a teammate. And as I pointed out before, this is not merely a stats argument, it's an at ude argument. Of course the Thunder's efficiency drops when Westbrook leaves the floor, because he takes ~40% of the shots on his team. Have you ever played basketball? Have you ever played with a guy who literally shoots every time he gets it? Then at the end of the game you finally catch maybe the 3rd pass all game and you're open but you can't hit because you haven't gotten the ball to develop a rhythm or any kind of feel for the game? Respond to this again with stats. Please. Because that's not the argument here at all.You said Westbrook is a cancer. This implies he hurts his team. So how come the team does noticeably better when he's on the court? That makes no sense. If you look at the 76ers w/ Iverson, they often did just as well when he went to the bench. That's not the case at all with OKC. You say he "disrupts offensive rhythm"? When he's playing, OKC's offensive rating is 111. When he's not playing, their offensive rating is 100. He can be a chucker, yes. He will have games where he shoots them out of winning, yes. But 1) it's not like Kawhi shows up every game either, and 2) Westbrook will have games where he single-handedly wins the game for them. The amount of pressure he puts on teams is ridiculous, and he's one of the most unguardable players in the league. You seriously think, on average, Kawhi has more of an impact on games than Westbrook?
you can't just throw in "regular season" to entirely dismiss somebody. in fact, Paul's scoring AND assist numbers are higher in the playoffs than regular season for his career.
"curry has been playing good defense but its the regular season"... so what? are you expecting him to participate in playoff games during the months of november to march? he's an improved defensive player, period. he does play alongside a terrific defensive unit, but he's absolutely a part of it. his man to man defense is solid and he's one of the best in the league at playing passing lanes.
and portland lost to the spurs for a bevy of reasons... and it also helps that Splitter was on a great defensive run going back to the mavs series, one of the few players ideally built to defend lamarcus.
Cool. Again, it's the regular season. Teams don't gameplan to exploit mismatches. Curry was on defense last year when it mattered. Not saying he will be again, but until the games actually matter, you're arguing that he's improved in games that don't count for nada come May.
As for Paul, as I said I really like watching him play minus the histrionics (and for that matter I LOVE Steph Curry's game, and see a lot of the games here living in the Bay). But he repeatedly gets stalled and shut down in big games. That Clipper team is massively loaded with talent and he has no excuse not to have a ring, to say nothing of getting out of the Conference Semis yet, if he's the kind of "take over the game player" you say he is. You know what that means, right? Take over a game? That means making damn sure your team doesn't lose.
It's widely known that LMA has to develop a post-game to incur post-season success. I can't even begin to fathom why you would debate this with me. You're saying a monstrously talented big shooting jumpers is fine? If he was a Spur you'd want him standing 15 feet out chucking at the rim at will? He's a 7'er (well 6'11") who's shooting FORTY-FIVE PERCENT this year.and portland lost to the spurs for a bevy of reasons... and it also helps that Splitter was on a great defensive run going back to the mavs series, one of the few players ideally built to defend lamarcus.
Last edited by Cry Havoc; 03-07-2015 at 02:11 PM.
#notacancer
Last edited by Cry Havoc; 03-07-2015 at 02:10 PM.
Kawhi won't average 20ppg because the system he plays under and the team/coach he plays for. Parker was the last Spur to average over 20ppg, and he just barely made it. I don't remember the exact stat, but the Spurs won the le last year with their leading scorer I believe not ranked in the top 30.
Put Kawhi on a bad team, he'll avg 20+ easy.
When I said "going forward", I meant as in "how you see him playing for the rest of the season + playoffs". I don't use potential to rank players on their impact. Wiggins obviously has the potential to be a top 5 player, but he's nowhere near there right now, and I'm not going to call him a top 20 player because of his potential. And FWIW, Harden/Curry/Westbrook are all pretty young themselves.
As for CP3's playoff woes...you'd have more of an argument if you weren't comparing him to Kawhi. When has Kawhi had to carry a team as the 1st option for an entire playoffs? Kawhi was basically non-existent against Dallas last year. If he was the 1st option and was relied on to carry the team, we lose that series. CP3 has never had the luxury of being a 3rd option on a team. Every team he's played on relies on him more than any team Kawhi has played on. I feel like you're letting 3 games against Miami determine how you view Kawhi.
It sounds like you're arguing against Westbrook at his worst. I already conceded that he'll seldom shoot you out of games. But again, ON AVERAGE, he's going to have more of an impact and be a better player than Kawhi. And it still makes no sense to say that Westbrook is a cancer that hurts their offense when they perform WAY better on offense when Westbrook is on the court. They go from having a top offense in the league to one of the worst offenses when he goes to the bench...but he's hurting them? That doesn't make sense.
Literally posted a First Take segment as it's somehow proof
I've never seen a cancer have such a positive impact on his team tbh. They do great when he plays, and fall apart when he goes to the bench. Sure sounds cancerous to me.
top 20 when he's on his game.
The last 5 games he's posted a negative or 0 in +/- every game. The bench has been in the positive every game. The Thunder are 2-3 in that span, and 2-7 this season when he scores 35+. Yep. That sounds like the definition of cancer.Literally posted a First Take segment as it's somehow proof
I've never seen a cancer have such a positive impact on his team tbh. They do great when he plays, and fall apart when he goes to the bench. Sure sounds cancerous to me.
Nice backpedal. You didn't define a length of time then try to rip me because after using very general language that I wasn't somehow able to read your mind to know "going forward" means "going forward for the next 25 games + playoffs only this season."
Last edited by Cry Havoc; 03-07-2015 at 04:27 PM.
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