Lakers: Do people that dismiss players due to era watch basketball?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Larry Bird even commented how lazy McHale was away from gameday and how he'd rather drink and party than work on his game and train. And yet, he still outplayed one of the most athletic big men in NBA history .

I'm not totally discrediting "modern training" methods, and they have been responsible for an improvement in overall athleticism, but the improvement is very, very marginal. The biggest leap we've seen in basketball players (at least among wing and guards) in the past 30-40 years is in skill (dribbling with both hands, finishing with both hands, post play, shot mechanics, etc). And any great player of the past could adapt and learn these skills over a couple off seasons, meaning a player like Oscar would likely still be elite after he adapted.

It takes an athletic freak of nature to do something like this:



But yeah, Fat Lowry or Raymond Felton would dominate Oscar (who measured 6'5" barefoot and weighed in at 220) athletically and physically because Eastern Bloc training

I have a feeling some of the naysayers are done posting in this thread.

[KL2]

No. I used the long and high jump world records to prove my point. The broad jump hasn't been a relevant athletic event in 100 years. The record that guy broke was like 111 years old . And he only broke it by 7 inches. That proves my point how athletes haven't significantly evolved. You have a modern athlete with access to cutting edge training methods and nutrition and he can only improve on a jump by a guy who probably drank more than trained by 7%.

The training techniques have been around since the 60's, the people that set these records used these techniques, so I'm not really sure what point you were trying to prove. Not only that but all these jumping sports require primarily technique.

The guy that held the record dedicated his entire life to breaking that record, suddenly some football player that's been working out for a few years shatters it. Not only that but he outweighed him by over 50lbs, breaking a record in a sport that isn't even relevant to him.

But jumping itself is nothing special. Jumping high does not mean athletic ability.

[KL2]

Larry Bird even commented how lazy McHale was away from gameday and how he'd rather drink and party than work on his game and train. And yet, he still outplayed one of the most athletic big men in NBA history .

I'm not totally discrediting "modern training" methods, and they have been responsible for an improvement in overall athleticism, but the improvement is very, very marginal. The biggest leap we've seen in basketball players (at least among wing and guards) in the past 30-40 years is in skill (dribbling with both hands, finishing with both hands, post play, shot mechanics, etc). And any great player of the past could adapt and learn these skills over a couple off seasons, meaning a player like Oscar would likely still be elite after he adapted.

It takes an athletic freak of nature to do something like this:



But yeah, Fat Lowry or Raymond Felton would dominate Oscar (who measured 6'5" barefoot and weighed in at 220) athletically and physically because Eastern Bloc training

You do realize he's simply spreading his legs out right? Pay attention to the height of his hips lol, he's not that high off the ground. You're mistaking jumping high for athleticism, it tells me you do not know how to judge athletic players.

The skills you see are the result of terrible compe ion, that video you posted of Robertson was shockingly bad, terrible defense, terrible lateral movement, no explosiveness from his opponents. Eastern bloc training would address all these movements through basketball movement based workouts.

If you put some NBA scrub in the Euroleague he's going to look like a complete player, just as Robertson, Chamberlain, etc. he will also look extremely athletic, because he's not around other athletes. Splitter was an unstoppable post player in his spanish league, could knock down jumpers as well. Bowen was an offensive beast in Europe, looked like he could barely dribble the ball in the NBA

(mute this )



Lowry isn't that fat, I've seen him in real life, the dude is jacked. Whoever you think isn't athletic in the NBA, please get that idea out of your head, they are ALL athletic, they don't look athletic because it all evens out in a sea of athletes.


The overall talent pool of the old NBA also pales in comparison to the modern era. Based on that you will get more genetic freaks, more athletic players, higher quality of players. Add in Eastern bloc training methods allowing ANY guy to become athletic, you're going to get even better athletes.

Guys saw what Jordan was doing, Pippen followed, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc. now everybody is using eastern bloc methods, all strength and conditioning coaches, all youth programs, etc. Before, very few people had knowledge of proper weight lifting/nutrition, now everybody does.

[midnightpulp]

The training techniques have been around since the 60's, the people that set these records used these techniques, so I'm not really sure what point you were trying to prove. Not only that but all these jumping sports require primarily technique.

The guy that held the record dedicated his entire life to breaking that record, suddenly some football player that's been working out for a few years shatters it. Not only that but he outweighed him by over 50lbs, breaking a record in a sport that isn't even relevant to him.

But jumping itself is nothing special. Jumping high does not mean athletic ability.

Dedicated his entire life.

Ray Ewry, the man who set the world record all the way back in 1904, had polio as a child (meaning he wasn't athletically active as a child) and then as an adolescent, went to college and got a degree in engineering. He didn't become serious about athletics until after.

Here's a picture of Ewry:



While he's in good shape, his physical stature doesn't really resemble that of a "modern athlete reared on Eastern Bloc training methods" and yet, a modern athlete with presumably better genetics (let's be real, African Americans are naturally better leapers than Caucasians) bested the mark by less than 10%, meaning we've only seen very marginal improvement over 110 years, despite every athlete supposedly becoming athletic superheroes because "Eastern Bloc Training." And no, Jones does not outweigh Ewry by 50lb. He's 199lb. Ewry weighed in at 175.

The point that keeps going over your head that I'm trying to make is that human athletic ability is pretty much hard coded and no training method(s) are going to exponentially improve athleticism, which means that your modern superhero athletes wouldn't render past athletes ineffective, like your re ed claim that an 80's basketball player wouldn't be able to get his shot off.

On the other hand, we've seen massive leaps on the skill side on things, everything from off hand dribbling to defensive positioning. This is how a modern player would dominate his counterpart from the past.

[midnightpulp]

You do realize he's simply spreading his legs out right? Pay attention to the height of his hips lol, he's not that high off the ground. You're mistaking jumping high for athleticism, it tells me you do not know how to judge athletic players.

No, you don't. You do realize that takes an extraordinary amount of flexibility (something very important for an athlete to have) to do the splits in midair? And "he's not that high off the ground" (I'd estimate about 2 and half feet) because he's coming down with ball after a rebound.

The skills you see are the result of terrible compe ion, that video you posted of Robertson was shockingly bad, terrible defense, terrible lateral movement, no explosiveness from his opponents. Eastern bloc training would address all these movements through basketball movement based workouts.

Yes. You're finally getting it. Skills.

And I didn't post that video, since I know Oscar's skillset is raw by today's standards, but that doesn't mean he couldn't learn them during an off-season or two.

If you put some NBA scrub in the Euroleague he's going to look like a complete player, just as Robertson, Chamberlain, etc. he will also look extremely athletic, because he's not around other athletes. Splitter was an unstoppable post player in his spanish league, could knock down jumpers as well. Bowen was an offensive beast in Europe, looked like he could barely dribble the ball in the NBA

And all those Euros are using "Eastern Bloc Training" methods, as well. So what's the excuse now?

The overall talent pool of the old NBA also pales in comparison to the modern era. Based on that you will get more genetic freaks, more athletic players, higher quality of players. Add in Eastern bloc training methods allowing ANY guy to become athletic, you're going to get even better athletes.

Of course. But that doesn't automatically equate to top players of the past not being able to compete at a high level today. Wilt, Russell, Oscar were all "freaks," even by today's standards. And no, a training method, no matter which, will not turn "anyone into an athlete." Athleticism is determined by genetics. Sure, training will maximize a person's innate athletic ability, and yes, modern training methods are superior to past methods, but not so superior that modern athletes are supermen in comparison. This is, again, the point you fail to understand.

[apalisoc_9]

using robertson as an argument?

The dude can't even dribble with his left hand...Some guy named Justin in our loxal High school can dribble the ball better than that .

[midnightpulp]

using robertson as an argument?

The dude can't even dribble with his left hand...Some guy named Justin in our loxal High school can dribble the ball better than that .

You obviously didn't read past the first sentence of my argument:

And I didn't post that video, since I know Oscar's skillset is raw by today's standards, but that doesn't mean he couldn't learn them during an off-season or two.

Skills can be learned and massively improved on over a relatively limited time frame. Athletic ability is something you're pretty much born with. Yeah, you can improve it marginally through training and PEDs, but humans have essentially plateaued on this end.

Skills (and strategy), though, will continue to be refined as knowledge and technology (see SportVU tracking) advances.

[apalisoc_9]

You obviously didn't read past the first sentence of my argument:



Skills can be learned and massively improved on over a relatively limited time frame. Athletic ability is something you're pretty much born with. Yeah, you can improve it marginally through training and PEDs, but humans have essentially plateaued on this end.

Skills (and strategy), though, will continue to be refined as knowledge and technology (see SportVU tracking) advances.

So lets say I let you win the argument that Athletes today are only marginally better in terms of athletic ability, there is no denying in terms of skills..players today are a universe better.

If you take that two things in consideration...robertson wouldn't even make it to college ball in today's game.

[midnightpulp]

So lets say I let you win the argument that Athletes today are only marginally better in terms of athletic ability, there is no denying in terms of skills..players today are a universe better.

If you take that two things in consideration...robertson wouldn't even make it to college ball in today's game.

Yes he would. College players have terrible skillsets, the development of which has actually regressed over the past 3 decades because of AAU ball.

Kawhi's offensive skillset was in' atrocious when he was drafted. Yet he's developed a versatile offensive game in 3 seasons. Oscar would progress likewise. It's not hard to learn how to dribble with your off hand, be more efficient in your movements (think Rocker Step in lieu of overdribbling), proper defensive positioning, shooting mechanics, etc.

Oh, and you don't have "to let me win" any argument. All the data has clearly shown there has only been a very, very marginal improvement (fractions of a percent each year) to no improvement at all in human athleticism over the past century.

But technique and strategy has improved in all areas, across all sports. Usain Bolt is indeed a once-in-a-generation athlete, but a big reason he's so fast is because his sprint mechanics are near-perfect, which have been definitely aided by modern technology like computer analysis and such.

[apalisoc_9]

Yes he would. College players have terrible skillsets, the development of which has actually regressed over the past 3 decades because of AAU ball.

Kawhi's offensive skillset was in' atrocious when he was drafted. Yet he's developed a versatile offensive game in 3 seasons. Oscar would progress likewise. It's not hard to learn how to dribble with your off hand, be more efficient in your movements (think Rocker Step in lieu of overdribbling), proper defensive positioning, shooting mechanics, etc.

Oh, and you don't have "to let me win" any argument. All the data has clearly shown there has only been a very, very marginal improvement (fractions of a percent each year) to no improvement at all in human athleticism over the past century.

But technique and strategy has improved in all areas, across all sports. Usain Bolt is indeed a once-in-a-generation athlete, but a big reason he's so fast is because his sprint mechanics are near-perfect, which have been definitely aided by modern technology like computer analysis and such.

i showed you data that my friend who now works in a bank would have been a Pro 100 meter runner 50 years ago...

but you continue to deny.

[midnightpulp]

i showed you data that my friend who now works in a bank would have been a Pro 100 meter runner 50 years ago...

but you continue to deny.

Your friend's ty time wouldn't even hack it 100 years ago.

Also citing your friend's time does nothing for your counterargument. Like I said, sprinting technique has improved massively since the first Olympics, and your friend would have access to better coaching even at the youth level than Olympic athletes of a century ago.

You also showed me no data, since your argument is a pure anecdote.

[apalisoc_9]

Your friend's ty time wouldn't even hack it 100 years ago.

Also citing your friend's time does nothing for your counterargument. Like I said, sprinting technique has improved massively since the first Olympics, and your friend would have access to better coaching even at the youth level than Olympic athletes of a century ago.

You also showed me no data, since you're argument is a pure anecdote.

in 1958 the record for 100 meter was 10.1..if you think the difference between 10.1 and 9.5 is marginal in 100, then I just don't know what to say to you.

in 2014 trentavis friday run at 9.98..He's just in High school btw.

a 17 year old running better than a Pro and world record holder in the the 60...

60...

[midnightpulp]

in 1958 the record for 100 meter was 10.1..if you think the difference between 10.1 and 9.5 is marginal in 100, then I just don't know what to say to you.

in 2014 trentavis friday run at 9.98..He's just in High school btw.

a 17 year old running better than a Pro and world record holder in the the 60...

60...

Friday's best time is 10 flat.

The best time a high schooler ran in 1980?

10.00

No improvement in 35 years.

http://elitetrack.com/blogs-details-2882/

And like I said, technique continues to get better, so of course times would improve over 60 years.

And yes, 10.1 to 9.5 is marginal from a percent point-of-view, especially when you consider that improvement took over 50 years to materialize (0.1 percent each year). A massive improvement would be from 10.1 to 5.00, which would never happen.

And the long jump, high jump, hurdles, shot put, and javelin world records have stagnated.

[KL2]

Dedicated his entire life.

Ray Ewry, the man who set the world record all the way back in 1904, had polio as a child (meaning he wasn't athletically active as a child) and then as an adolescent, went to college and got a degree in engineering. He didn't become serious about athletics until after.

Here's a picture of Ewry:



While he's in good shape, his physical stature doesn't really resemble that of a "modern athlete reared on Eastern Bloc training methods" and yet, a modern athlete with presumably better genetics (let's be real, African Americans are naturally better leapers than Caucasians) bested the mark by less than 10%, meaning we've only seen very marginal improvement over 110 years, despite every athlete supposedly becoming athletic superheroes because "Eastern Bloc Training." And no, Jones does not outweigh Ewry by 50lb. He's 199lb. Ewry weighed in at 175.

The point that keeps going over your head that I'm trying to make is that human athletic ability is pretty much hard coded and no training method(s) are going to exponentially improve athleticism, which means that your modern superhero athletes wouldn't render past athletes ineffective, like your re ed claim that an 80's basketball player wouldn't be able to get his shot off.

On the other hand, we've seen massive leaps on the skill side on things, everything from off hand dribbling to defensive positioning. This is how a modern player would dominate his counterpart from the past.

It was an Olympic record set by a very skinny guy that used proper jumping technique lmao. It was broken by a young 200lb man that didn't use proper technique, that built his muscle through different methods and has much different reflexes.

[apalisoc_9]

It was an Olympic record set by a very skinny guy that used proper jumping technique lmao. It was broken by a young 200lb man that didn't use proper technique, that built his muscle through different methods and has much different reflexes.

[KL2]

No, you don't. You do realize that takes an extraordinary amount of flexibility (something very important for an athlete to have) to do the splits in midair? And "he's not that high off the ground" (I'd estimate about 2 and half feet) because he's coming down with ball after a rebound.

Any pro NBA athlete can do that lmfao, any athlete should be able to do that.

Yes. You're finally getting it. Skills.

And I didn't post that video, since I know Oscar's skillset is raw by today's standards, but that doesn't mean he couldn't learn them during an off-season or two.

The overall quality of the NBA has increased 10 fold, the depth pool has increased to BILLIONS, it's not even comparable. The amount of youth development programs that use modern training methods, collegiate basketball programs, overseas basketball clubs, it's ridiculous. There are millions of children right now playing youth basketball, developing their games from a young age. There are all sorts of guys out there that master the fundamentals, but their skills are overruled by sheer athleticism, speed, and size.

Not only that but thanks to Eastern bloc training methods guys like Duncan have been able to increase the span of their career and the level at which they play at while staying healthy. That right there has increased the overall strength of the NBA alone, keeping players healthy, not wearing out their Central Nervous system with improper workouts.

And all those Euros are using "Eastern Bloc Training" methods, as well. So what's the excuse now?

They're all over the place lmao, the USSR dominated us in the Olympics with them. All the Euro league players you see in the NBA are the result of these methods.

However, their depth pool and training techniques are behind the USA's, because in the US, sports is god. We have the biggest youth sports program by far, we build million dollar stadiums just to watch high school sports lmao. We pump a large amount of money into sports science. The Euros created it, we helped perfect it by applying it to our sports.

Of course. But that doesn't automatically equate to top players of the past not being able to compete at a high level today. Wilt, Russell, Oscar were all "freaks," even by today's standards. And no, a training method, no matter which, will not turn "anyone into an athlete." Athleticism is determined by genetics. Sure, training will maximize a person's innate athletic ability, and yes, modern training methods are superior to past methods, but not so superior that modern athletes are supermen in comparison. This is, again, the point you fail to understand.

You still didn't read about Eastern bloc training methods, part of it is improving your CNS, Central Nervous System, which affects your reflexes, overall muscle fatigue, coordination, explosive ability etc.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/cent...ormance-40836#

It also mentions a study between the jumping techniques used between football players and track and field jumpers, and and array of different athletes and the relation of the CNS.


Players are far more explosive, they increase their weight, while improving coordination, quickness, explosiveness, reflexes both conscious and unconscious, overall endurance, they do not sacrifice anything and that is why they are bigger and they stay healthier as well.

That's why players of the past were so small, the bigger they were, the more quickness/agility they sacrificed, and if you did lift you had to avoid injury by not exhausting your CNS. Now you can have a 270lb Lebron James moving like a guard, a 6'10 Blake Griffin dribbling like a guard, a 240lb SF Kawhi Leonard out on the perimeter guarding guards. 6'4 225lb guards exploding to the rim making insane plays, 7'0 250lb guys like Splitter guard the pick and roll etc.

Most guys that were 6'5 200lbs or 6'10 250lbs got into the NBA by default , now days there are hundreds of them competing for a spot in the NBA, all benefiting from modern training techniques.

Jordan used these techniques to increase his overall endurance, size, health, reflexes etc.

[KL2]

Anyone saying athletes haven't gotten much more explosive and athletic is also saying the NFL hasn't gotten more athletic as well lmfao.

The NFL first applied these techniques in the 70's with the Raiders, everyone saw how bad ass they were working, started hiring strength and conditioning coaches. Now after 40+ years you're seeing animals out there, now every pro sports team employs these coaches.

6'5 240lb WR's like Johnson lmao, 6'3 200lb CB's, etc. it's ridiculous.

The NBA didn't benefit until the 90's, some guys may have used them before, but the use wasn't wide spread, nor were the techniques for bball fully developed like they are now. Jordan was one of the first, he went on to dominate and said himself how they transformed him.

Kids these days are learning these techniques and exercises, the NBA is insanely athletic right now.