Pounding The Rock:Duncan 2nd best basketball player ever

[Cry Havoc]

Only Jordan and Kareem are ahead of Timmy at this point imo. Magic is a toss-up.

Not one coach or GM would pick Bird ahead of Duncan as a franchise cornerstone. Duncan is better offensively (by a slight margin) and defensively (by a huge margin). Add in consistency and longevity and it's not close. Bird's trash talking persona might garner him more public attention, but Duncan has arguably similar intangibles (leadership, unselfishness, bonding with teammates/coach, raising his game for the playoffs, etc).

Chamberlain is difficult to rate, since he was a physical phenom, but didn't have the mindset of other all-time greats. I think some GMs would pick Wilt because of the unlimited raw potential, but I bet more GMs would pick Duncan because of his almost guaranteed positive impact on the franchise's trajectory.

Russell is all intagibles and defense, his offense is too far behind for him to be comparable to Timmy

I'm a huge fan of Duncan, but to say he's a better offensive player than Bird is highly questionable. Larry was an all-court threat just like Tim. Dude was a monster and could burn you from anywhere. If Bird hadn't had a bad back, I think he would be an EASY choice for the 3rd greatest player of all-time, and he still has a real case to be made for it even as short of a career as he had.

That said, Duncan can definitely be considered 3rd. Not sure about 2nd yet. Kareem's longevity was incredible just like Duncan.

[ajh18]

Jordan is 1, Kareem is 2 right now. Then:

There's the modern-era next two: Duncan and Magic, who are pretty close (no problem with anyone putting Magic ahead, but I'd probably put Duncan first).

And the old-school next two: Russell and Wilt,

I see no way you can put Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Lebron, or Kobe ahead of Duncan. So Duncan then falls between 3 and 6, depending on whether you prefer him or Magic and how much you value the old-school accomplishments.

[Cry Havoc]

He's not better than Kareem, no way, and this is coming from a huge Timmy homer.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Timmy
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Hakeem
8. Russell
9. Wilt
10. Kobe/Oscar/Lebron (case can be made for any of the 3)

That's a great ing list. My only caveats:

I'd have Wilt higher and LeBron higher. I think there's also a case to swap Bird and Magic. I might even bump Hakeem up at the expense of Shaq.

LeBron is clearly going to be top 6 when he's done. That's going to boot Kobe out of any potential top 10 conversations.

[Blake]

Only Jordan and Kareem are ahead of Timmy at this point imo. Magic is a toss-up.

Not one coach or GM would pick Bird ahead of Duncan as a franchise cornerstone. Duncan is better offensively (by a slight margin) and defensively (by a huge margin).

Bird is better offensively by a moderate margin and Duncan is better defensively by a moderate margin.

People really underestimate Bird's defense because of a couple of YouTube moments.

[8FOR!3]

I don't think you can really measure greatness. Tim Duncan is the greatest player I've ever lived to see. I'd put him above Jordan. But I'm also going by what I remember of Duncan as a person, as a teammate, his longevity, his loyalty. I don't think anybody's come close to topping all that. I also remember Hakeem Olajuwon being a little on the greedy for money side at 38 years old turning down 13 million dollars from the Rockets and leaving for Toronto. I think I should be allowed to bring that into a greatness debate.

[weebo]

Most that put bird over Duncan do so because bird is a honky. The rest are just plain stupid.

[ajh18]

Bird is better offensively by a moderate margin and Duncan is better defensively by a moderate margin.

People really underestimate Bird's defense because of a couple of YouTube moments.

Bird was awesome. But in terms of both achievements and longevity, Duncan has had the better career (and I don't think it's that close).

Similar per-36 numbers, but:
les: Duncan 5, Bird 3
MVPs: Duncan 2, Bird 3
PER: Duncan 24.5, Bird 23.5
Defensive Rating: Duncan 95.6, Bird 101.4
Win Shares: Duncan 201.2, Bird 145.8

and perhaps most importantly:
Games: Duncan 1331, Bird 897

You are basically picking between two players of very similar production, but Duncan edges Bird in most categories and has done it for 48% more games than Bird did. So if picking between the two, I don't think it's really even close.

[Mikeanaro]

Lol Bird over Duncan, only a white guy can say such a nonsense and dont get me that back injury excuse, Brandon Roy GOAT then.

[Blake]

Bird was awesome. But in terms of both achievements and longevity, Duncan has had the better career (and I don't think it's that close).

Similar per-36 numbers, but:
les: Duncan 5, Bird 3
MVPs: Duncan 2, Bird 3
PER: Duncan 24.5, Bird 23.5
Defensive Rating: Duncan 95.6, Bird 101.4
Win Shares: Duncan 201.2, Bird 145.8

and perhaps most importantly:
Games: Duncan 1331, Bird 897

You are basically picking between two players of very similar production, but Duncan edges Bird in most categories and has done it for 48% more games than Bird did. So if picking between the two, I don't think it's really even close.

Yeah I've had Duncan> Bird for years tbh

[Warlord23]

Bird is better offensively by a moderate margin and Duncan is better defensively by a moderate margin.

People really underestimate Bird's defense because of a couple of YouTube moments.

How do you figure Bird being better on offense? Sure he was an all-around threat, but his advanced stats are somewhat worse than TD's, and his playoff stats are worse than his regular season stats. Duncan's playoff stats are significantly better. Duncan's offensive peak (2001-07) and his longevity both compare favorably with Bird's.

Bird was no doubt a capable defender, but Duncan is a top 3-5 defender of his era.

[Richie]

Well you add more teams and the argument is that the league gets watered down.

I've seen plenty of people point to Wilt's 100 point game and say "aw it was just the era" but Kobe's 80 point game pretty much nullifies that.

don't have any problem including Wilt and Russell in goat discussions

I'm not sure about scoring, but I was mainly talking about rebounding numbers. During the '60s the league average was around 5500 rebounds per team per year, since the mid '70s it's gone to around 3500. It's undeniable that there simply were more rebounds up for grabs.

Wilt's career per 36 number was 18 rebounds per game, Timmy is 11.5 for his career. Factor in the 33% more available rebounds, that'd put Timmy around 15 per game per 36 in the same era. I'm not saying Timmy is a better rebounder than Wilt or Russell were, but the gap is closer than the pure numbers suggest.

The most impressive thing about Wilt is the fact that he managed to play 45 minutes/game for his career. Of course that's probably why he retired after only 14 years and Timmy is still going strong after 18.

[Blake]

How do you figure Bird being better on offense? Sure he was an all-around threat, but his advanced stats are somewhat worse than TD's

Just using simple ppg, assists and fg% stats.

And imo eyeball test.

[Warlord23]

Just using simple ppg, assists and fg% stats.

And imo eyeball test.

Raw PPG doesn't factor in pace though. Per 100 possessions, Bird scored 0.2 PPG more than Duncan in the regular season. In the playoffs, Duncan has scored 2.1 PPG more than Bird per 100 possessions.

Bird has more assists, but Duncan has more rebounds including offensive rebounds - a reflection of their positions more than anything. Also I'd wager that Duncan had to be double-teamed more frequently than Bird.

Duncan has the better FG% in both regular season and playoffs, while Bird has the edge in TS%.

[Galileo]

Duncan is 2nd all time in playoff win shares:

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Tim Duncan 37.14
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
4. LeBron James 34.39
5. Magic Johnson* 32.63
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
7. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
8. Kobe Bryant 28.26
9. Bill Russell* 27.76
10. Julius Erving* 26.89
11. Jerry West* 26.75
12. Larry Bird* 24.83
13. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
14. Dirk Nowitzki 23.01
15. Karl Malone* 22.99
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22.60
17. John Stockton* 21.35
18. Kevin McHale* 20.67
19. Chauncey Billups 20.60
20. Horace Grant 20.00
21. Reggie Miller* 19.90
22. Dwyane Wade 19.84
23. Charles Barkley* 19.52
24. John Havlicek* 19.27
25. Manu Ginobili 19.26
26. Robert Horry 18.23
27. Ray Allen 18.04
28. David Robinson* 17.52
29. George Mikan* 16.97
30. Kevin Garnett 16.42
31. Walt Frazier* 15.92
32. Dan Issel* 15.85
33. Paul Pierce 15.75
34. Robert Parish* 15.57
35. Clyde Drexler* 15.50
36. Ben Wallace 15.41
37. Elgin Baylor* 15.36
38. Rasheed Wallace 15.27
39. Sam Jones* 15.23
40. James Worthy* 14.84
41. Moses Malone* 14.80
42. Roger Brown* 14.80
43. Zelmo Beaty 14.57
44. Derek Fisher 14.55
45. Jason Kidd 14.45
46. Jeff Hornacek 14.44
47. Pau Gasol 14.13
48. Patrick Ewing* 14.06
49. Dolph Schayes* 13.95
50. Oscar Robertson* 13.65
51. Bobby Jones 13.36
52. Artis Gilmore* 13.19
53. Dennis Johnson* 13.16
54. Rick Barry* 13.15
55. Maurice Cheeks 13.14
56. Tony Parker 12.82
57. Wes Unseld* 12.71
58. Isiah Thomas* 12.55
59. Kevin Durant 12.14
60. Steve Nash 11.87
61. Byron Scott 11.81
62. Bob Pet * 11.74
63. Dennis Rodman* 11.74
64. Elvin Hayes* 11.71
65. Richard Hamilton 11.66
66. Terry Porter 11.60
67. Michael Cooper 11.54
68. Don Nelson* 11.25
69. Jimmy Jones 11.20
70. Charles Oakley 11.15
71. Tayshaun Prince 11.15
72. Gary Payton* 11.13
73. Bob Dandridge 11.04
74. Mel Daniels* 10.95
75. Dwight Howard 10.77
76. Cliff Hagan* 10.74
77. Bill Laimbeer 10.70
78. Sam Perkins 10.49
79. Chet Walker* 10.25
80. Joe Dumars* 10.07
81. Gus Williams 10.06
82. Dikembe Mutombo* 9.91
83. A.C. Green 9.76
84. Cedric Maxwell 9.75
85. George Gervin* 9.72
86. Rajon Rondo 9.68
87. Danny Ainge 9.62
88. Frank Ramsey* 9.49
89. Shawn Kemp 9.47
90. Dan Majerle 9.46
91. Kevin Johnson 9.44
92. Dave Cowens* 9.38
93. Chris Bosh 9.37
94. Bill Sharman* 9.32
95. Freddie Lewis 9.25
96. Vern Mikkelsen* 9.16
97. Tom Heinsohn* 9.13
98. Bob Cousy* 9.07
99. Shawn Marion 9.07
100. Adrian Dantley* 8.99
101. Chris Paul 8.95
102. Lamar Odom 8.85
103. Dale Davis 8.83
104. George McGinnis 8.80
105. Jerome Kersey 8.75
106. Bob Lanier* 8.63
107. Vlade Divac 8.57
108. John Salley 8.57
109. Bryon Russell 8.44
110. Paul Silas 8.33
111. Louie Dampier 8.32
112. Mark Jackson 8.30
113. Ron Harper 8.14
114. Kawhi Leonard 8.11
115. Willie Wise 8.02
116. Buck Williams 7.96
117. Sidney Moncrief 7.95
118. Willis Reed* 7.95
119. Jack Sikma 7.90
120. John Starks 7.76
121. Anfernee Hardaway 7.70
122. Steve Smith 7.69
123. Jason Terry 7.64
124. Toni Kukoc 7.64
125. Maurice Lucas 7.63
126. Hersey Hawkins 7.60
127. Billy Paultz 7.54
128. Alonzo Mourning* 7.50
129. Amar'e Stoudemire 7.46
130. Rik Smits 7.42
131. Paul Arizin* 7.38
132. Larry Nance 7.37
133. Eddie Jones 7.31
134. Kenyon Martin 7.30
135. P.J. Brown 7.30
136. Jo Jo White* 7.30
137. Allen Iverson 7.26
138. Deron Williams 7.25
139. Hal Greer* 7.25
140. Bailey Howell* 7.23
141. Jamaal Wilkes* 7.19
142. James Harden 7.16
143. Vince Carter 7.05
144. Terry mings 7.04
145. Udonis Haslem 7.04
146. Richard Jefferson 7.02
147. Darryl Dawkins 6.98
148. Caldwell Jones 6.97
149. Michael Finley 6.95
150. Barnett 6.94
151. Russell Westbrook 6.91
152. Antonio Davis 6.86
153. Sam Cassell 6.86
154. Gail Goodrich* 6.85
155. Mack Calvin 6.83
156. Baron Davis 6.79
157. Marques Johnson 6.71
158. Anthony Mason 6.70
159. Derrick McKey 6.69
160. Rashard Lewis 6.67
161. Peja Stojakovic 6.66
162. Bob Netolicky 6.66
163. Detlef Schrempf 6.66
164. Mark Aguirre 6.66
165. Bobby Wanzer* 6.55
166. Tom Sanders* 6.55
167. Kurt Rambis 6.52
168. Alex English* 6.52
169. Mario Elie 6.47
170. Derek Harper 6.46
171. Tyson Chandler 6.38
172. Max Zaslofsky 6.35
173. Boris Diaw 6.35
174. Bruce Bowen 6.33
175. Doc Rivers 6.30
176. Avery Johnson 6.27
177. Bob McAdoo* 6.22
178. Ron Boone 6.21
179. Serge Ibaka 6.15
180. George Yardley* 6.12
181. Marc Gasol 6.12
182. Earl Monroe* 6.09
183. Arnie Risen* 6.07
184. Sean Elliott 6.03
185. Antonio McDyess 5.97
186. Bill Keller 5.95
187. Larry Johnson 5.95
188. B.J. Armstrong 5.83
189. Connie Simmons 5.81
190. George Hill 5.72
191. Carmelo Anthony 5.70
192. Slater Martin* 5.68
193. David West 5.64
194. Dave DeBusschere* 5.64
195. Red Robbins 5.63
196. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 5.63
197. Jim Eakins 5.62
198. Carlos Boozer 5.62
199. Walter Davis 5.62
200. John Paxson 5.50
201. Paul George 5.50
202. Otis Thorpe 5.47
203. Chris Webber 5.45
204. Bill Bridges 5.44
205. Vinnie Johnson 5.44
206. Larry Foust 5.42
207. Bill Cartwright 5.41
208. Nate Thurmond* 5.41
209. Marcus Camby 5.41
210. Paul Westphal 5.38
211. Joakim Noah 5.35
212. Jim Pollard* 5.30
213. Steve Kerr 5.29
214. Harry Gallatin* 5.26
215. Mario Chalmers 5.24
216. Antonio Daniels 5.19
217. Andrew Bynum 5.18
218. Connie Hawkins* 5.16
219. Mike Bibby 5.12
220. Clifford Ray 5.09
221. Shane Battier 5.08
222. Brad Daugherty 5.05
223. Fred Brown 4.99
224. Chris Andersen 4.95
225. Kenny Smith 4.95
226. Lou Hudson 4.94
227. Roy Hibbert 4.94
228. Mychal Thompson 4.92
229. Jerry Lucas* 4.92
230. Derrick Coleman 4.88
231. Kerry Kittles 4.87
232. Norm Nixon 4.86
233. Metta World Peace 4.84
234. James Posey 4.82
235. K.C. Jones* 4.73
236. Bill Bradley* 4.70
237. Larry Brown* 4.70
238. Ricky Pierce 4.69
239. Walt Bellamy* 4.69
240. Alvan Adams 4.67
241. Jim McMillian 4.65
242. Trooper Washington 4.63
243. Anderson Varejao 4.60
244. Allan Houston 4.60
245. Jermaine O'Neal 4.54
246. Rick Fox 4.53
247. Rudy LaRusso 4.53
248. Danny Green 4.51
249. Tracy McGrady 4.49
250. Clyde Lovellette* 4.48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html

[barbacoataco]

Comparing players at different positions is kind of a waste.

[barbacoataco]

Also, you all seem to be discussing "career" value as opposed to "peak" value. Duncan's peak value is already established by his best years in 1999, 2002-5. That value is not changing or growing by his continued success. Fans who value peak value often rate Olajuwon high, even though he had a somewhat uneven career with mixed results some seasons. Shaquille O'Neal also has a high peak value. For big men the only challenge to Duncan in career value is Kareem.

A good question is Duncan vs Shaq in peak value. At first I lean to Shaq, but Dunacan at his best in 2002-2003 didn't have Kobe Bryant. Dunacan was a better defender, and passer, and better at defending the pick and roll. But Shaq had a great low post game. On the other hand he often didn't play at crunch time because of hack a Shaq. Maybe Duncan has the edge but it's close. Also depends on the refs and whether Shaq is allowed to bulldoze the defender or they call offensive foul.

[Blake]

Raw PPG doesn't factor in pace though. Per 100 possessions, Bird scored 0.2 PPG more than Duncan in the regular season. In the playoffs, Duncan has scored 2.1 PPG more than Bird per 100 possessions.

Bird has more assists, but Duncan has more rebounds including offensive rebounds - a reflection of their positions more than anything. Also I'd wager that Duncan had to be double-teamed more frequently than Bird.

Duncan has the better FG% in both regular season and playoffs, while Bird has the edge in TS%.

Bird right under 50%, Duncan right under 51%, but Bird shot 1700+ more threes that brought his overall percentage down, so I'm personally giving FG edge to Bird.

i know this, if I needed someone to score 60, between Bird and Tim, I'm taking Bird

[ffadicted]

I'm lol'in hard at these "case against Jordan" ppl cmon

[Galileo]

Jordan is a guard.

[Skull-1]

Most that put bird over Duncan do so because bird is a honky. The rest are just plain stupid.

Care to back that bull up with a survey or some statistical analysis?

[Kidd K]

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Hakeem
Oscar
West

I think with 6 Duncan moves past Russell (wouldn't argue with anyone who says he already has) and if he somehow wins A 4th FMVP, I think he moves past Kareem. Heck, he already has a case over Jordan IMO.

Very nice list imo. Not often I see someone with a list that doesn't suck.

I don't have Kobe as high as you (below Hakeem and LBJ imo), and I have Hakeem just above LeBron still though I'm a little biased there perhaps since I witnessed him and DRob play in their primes, putting up similar/better numbers than LeBron is now.

This whole discussion bothers me a bit though. If we won in 2013 too (aka won game 6), Duncan would've had Finals MVP with that great game he had. So he'd have 6 already and 4 FMVPs :\

[weebo]

Care to back that bull up with a survey or some statistical analysis?

stfu honky