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You lower Kareem which is fine but it's kind of funny you replace him with another one who is overrated in Magic Johnson
I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.
So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?
Let's unpack his achievements.
The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.
Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0and Duncan's are 3.8 and 6.5.
"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"
As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his le teams. And during his 6th le run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the le, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.
Now, I'm not one to diminish les, but Kareem's first le came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A le the very next season and 3 more to follow.
So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.
Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.
Last edited by midnightpulp; 05-03-2015 at 07:32 PM.
You lower Kareem which is fine but it's kind of funny you replace him with another one who is overrated in Magic Johnson
You're not that great if you don't repeat. He never repeated in his prime, needed Magic to come do it for him a year before he retired.
Hush, now.
Realistically speaking prime Hakeem is number 2, but if you weigh heavily on longevity then I dunno. I can't really include guys pre 80s in all time great discussions.
Magic is like mayweather, blacks nominate him as the representative of all African Americans and overrate him ridiculously.
He couldn't play d and he couldn't shoot or score at an elite level
I recall watching those games when Kareem was the corpse out there on the floor. You were like " ing retire already". That slow ass sky hook, watching them pound it in low to him and all that sloppy they did back then, it was painful to watch. It's like watching Moses Malone or Bill Cartwright with the ball... boring as .
needed a skyhook to take advantage of 6'9 white stiffs
got some extra times on your hand Mid, but you choose to spend it on this bull ? I missed Kareem's prime. So I don't have issues with your premise but any judgment of Kareem by dudes under say 45 is a waste of effort and words tbh ...I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.
So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?
Let's unpack his achievements.
The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.
Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0
"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"
As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his le teams. And during his 6th le run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the le, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.
Now, I'm not one to diminish les, but Kareem's first le came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A le the very next season and 3 more to follow.
So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.
Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.
f
^anyone can look at the advanced metrics, numbers don't lie. Of course Kobe fan doesn't want to talk about efficiency and numbers.
I don't think Magic is overrated. He averaged 15, 7, and 6 on 46% shooting during the 96 season after a 4 year layoff. He was 36, HIV infected, with bad wheels, and still put up pretty strong numbers in a defensive oriented era. I think a prime Magic would have no problem being an absolute beast today, especially in this new space-and-pace era.
^but now you're speculating. "Would be," "if we put him in a different era," etc none of those count. All we can look at is what actually happened. I though tim Thomas was going to be a perrinneal all star once upon a time. He wasn't motivated and it didn't happen.
How is this "bull ?"
We should just take a bunch of old fogey's word for it? Besides, it's not like I'm ting on Kareem. I still have him 4th, and have actually seen him lower on various other lists, but we shouldn't just automatically grant him top 2 status because he scored a bunch of points and won 5 rings with one of the most stacked teams in NBA history.
And Duncan at 38 is more impressive than magic at 36. I'm not really sure how 15 and 7 off subpar shooting and defense is supposed to add strength to your argument.
Its gonna be ok mid...l know you going through some ..if I introduce you to Galaxia would that help?
It is, but that doesn't discount Magic's "accomplishments" during that season. He also wasn't subpar defensively, and was actually a net positive defensive player. And a lot of teams would love to have 15, 7, 6 from the power forward position (which Magic played that year, since he didn't have the stamina to run point) in today's league. That said, neither of us have any concrete evidence of how Magic would perform today, so we're both speculating.
It's gonna be ok Mid....you got spanked by our re ed brother
Not saying that but I always prefer when people say Jordan was the best player I ever saw versus just saying he is the GOAT. But either way I dont have a issue With Kareem at 4th heck even if some say Duncan is better than Kareem because by the time I saw KAJ he was still good even great but I never saw him at his best.
As for just looking at stats even advanced metrics is just as ty as eye-test alone ... any good evaluator would use both to make a real evaluation of great players.
Doesnt Eye-test and both raw and advanced stats show that TD is a greater player at this age than Kareem? Obviously I wasnt alive yet during his time...
I dont know. Based on Kareem at his absolute peak (via NBA greatest games) I would argue Kareem is better. But honestly I dont care all that much. I do know Tim played better at age 39 then Kareem no arguments here. But at his best I think Kareem was better.
When exactly? Mid already exposed his first years were in possibly the worst eras in ball and he never got another until Magic held his hands.
Duncan, as great as his metrics are, is even a better eye-test player. He's one of the best pick setters of all-time, outlet passers of all-time, and shot alterers of all-time, things that don't show up in the box.
Kobe always failed my eye-test (per his status as "Jordan's heir" and all that bull ), even before the age of advanced metrics, which just confirmed what I saw.
That and the records that Tim holds both in regular season and especially, in the playoffs which is of course more special.
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