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Amb going HAM
Not exactly sure why I got called out for being a Kareem fanboi, as I am not really a huge Kareem fan.
In fact, I sort of agree with OP, to a degree.
Kareem was undoubtedly one of the greatest of all time, but he is probably one of the most difficult to gauge of all the all-time greats.
He won championships during the 80s, which was the golden age of the NBA, but only with the help of a loaded Lakers team, and some VERY questionable moves by the NBA (banning pretty much the entire Houston roster, banning Tarpley. Not really a coincidence both teams were the primary adversary of the Lakers in the West, aka, the two major roadblocks stopping the very profitable Lakers-Celtics Finals every year). He was underwhelming in at least one le run (88), mediocre in another 1 (87), and pretty good in the third and fourth one (82 and 85). He was only really all-time great good in one le run, and his team won the championship with a rookie PG in his place. To summarize, he won a lot of les, but he was clearly NOT in his prime during the 80s.
The time when he was in his prime though, was in the 70s, and the league was horrible. He put up monster stats during this time (traditional and advanced), but really, who was he really playing against? He won one le with the Big-O next to him. I don't really fault him for not winning more les during this prime, because winning les was a team accomplishment, but he did manage to miss the playoffs, and from my point of view, an all-time great player can drag his team to the playoffs as long as there is a supporting cast around him and he played enough games.
Third, he was absolutely BULLIED h2h against his best opponents. Moses and Hakeem both took him to the woodshed, and it really wasn't that pretty. Sure Hakeem did it to a way over the hill Kareem, and Kareem scored enough points, but his rebounding and defense just wasn't up to par.
Which brings us to the last point, his defense and rebounding was horrible for an all-time great during the last 5 or so years. Just absolutely horrible.
However, he played 20 years, and his peak was higher than or comparable to anyone's peak (just some questions about his compe ion though).
Amb going HAM
I dont think so. he made some good points for both sides of the argument, tbh. Unless the definition of HAM has changed. Someone going HAM would go hard on one side not both I think his post has stuff Ashy and Mid could use ...
BTW, I tried for years to rank players, but have pretty much given up as there are just way too many variables.
Bill Simmons introduced a great way though, and that is to put players in groups. You can make a strong case for anyone of the players better than the other players, and no one really has a clear case of better than any other person.
I don't really think Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, people overlook a lot of factors (he can only win with one type of team, Pippen got way less credit than he deserved, the Bulls always had great interior defense, coaching, insane amounts of FTs), and Magic, Kareem, and Bird all have a case at the top. And I know I would be labeled a crazy Duncan fanboi, but Duncan has a case in that as he is really the easiest player to build a championship around (99, 03, 05/07, and 14 les are at least 4 totally different le teams, and Duncan and right at the centre for all five of them).
Old timers (I agree with a whole bunch of y'alls it difficult to rate old timers, so I am putting them in a separate pile, not necessarily better or worse than any of the tiers):
Russell, Wilt, Oscar
Top tier:
Jordan, Magic, Kareem
Second tier:
Duncan, Bird (I would rank Duncan higher, but Bird's peak was just scary)
Third tier:
Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses
Fourth tier:
Garnett, Dirk, McHale, Barkley, Kobe, Robinson, Stockton, Isiah, West, Dr. J
Fifth tier:
Malone, Ewing, Wade, and probably a whole bunch of guys I am missing.
But if you want a back to back, don't build around Duncan
Not really, you'd have to put him on a relatively stacked team. You saw how Duncan dragged flawed teams to les 5 out of his 19 years in this league, never missing the playoffs and only bumped in the first round twice in his career (both times well after his prime). Imagine what he can do with stacked teams with players like Magic, Pippen, Kobe or McHale as his sidekick.But if you want a back to back, don't build around Duncan
Though Duncan had hall of famers and still couldnt repeat. Along with a HOF coach.
Last edited by KobeOwnsDuncan; 05-04-2015 at 03:04 PM.
And no, Duncan was carried 4 out of 5 les.
I have told Amb his list isnt bad. I think Bird is slightly high and Kobe slightly low but I honestly dont even care anymore. Duncan, Bird, Lebron, over Kobe really it doesnt matter. I just want to keep the pick. At the end of the day does it matter where Kobe ranks on a Spurs board or a Laker one for that matter? Both sites are biased. It's just a format for hoops fans to express themselves. No one is right (though I called durant over ODen) or wrong (well I did argue Dwill over Paul a long time ago) because most things except the extreme cases are subjective even with advanced metrics. some great players are dominate in one category and suck in others. Some have the eye test others not so much.
Amb's list is solid anyone can nit pick a list. I think Amb despite a few flaws (imho) is as good as Simmons or anyone else ...
Hakeem
The rest is
Or Bird.But if you want a back to back, don't build around Duncan
There are a few teams that had only one (or less) HoF, and none of them repeated.
Though Duncan had hall of famers and still couldnt repeat. Along with a HOF coach.
94 Rockets (only repeated by adding Drexler)
04 Pistons, though Ben Wallace and Billups may make it one day
79 Sonics
And it doesn't really matter how many HoFers are on a team. Kidd was on the 11 Mavs, but he was way over the hill. Similarly, Robinson was way over the hill in 03, and Parker and Ginobili weren't that great that year either. In 14, Duncan was over the hill (though still better than most players), and sometimes, teams, such as the Lakers, would even struggle to make the playoffs with 4 HoFers.
Other than the Rockets, every single team that repeated was stacked to the nose:
60's Celtics - 8 HoFers, don't know how much more stacked you can be
87-88 Lakers - Magic, Kareem (greatly diminished), Worthy, Scott, Cooper
Pistons - Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, one of the best benches the league has ever seen. Not coincidentally, it went into free fall after expansion, because it's bench was affected
Bulls - Jordan, Pippen, Rodman/Grant
Lakers - Shaq, Kobe
Lakers - MVPau, Kobe, Bynum, Odom (by far the best frontline in the league), 20+ FTs in the 4th quarter in an elimination game + injuries to the Celtics
Heat - Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Allen
Pray tell.
Thanks buddy. If only you were a woman.
Fact remains... Kobe owns Duncan.
How so? By having less FMVPs, MVPs, ROY? Worse advanced stats? Missing more playoffs? Shooting 37.3%?
LOL, it's all good it's a respect thing. We may have had some arguments here and there but I think your takes especially on guys I missed their prime on is valuable if still only a opinion. I just know you hate Kobe ... and call you out for that but it's your right ... just like I hate Dwight or Kevin McHale ... fine players ...still hate 'em.
I just wanted you to admit it .... but I have even given up on that because again in the end it doesnt mattter you know that I know so we can keep it chill.
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