The differences between then and now is, the masses have caught on to the value of legit 3 and D wings, plus the cap is about to skyrocket, so the days of getting those players for the MLE or lower are over.
There's no chance the Spurs could replace 80% of what Green can bring. Not only is he more rare than you're giving him credit for (for example, Matthews is more well rounded, but not quick enough laterally to defend PG's), but if they sign Aldridge and don't re-sign him, they'll be capped out, with limited trade assets.
Maybe Anderson develops into a 3 and D type, but this is a team still trying to contend in the interim. The likelihood of some rookie picked at 26 playing a key role is highly unlikely.
Splitter is not going anywhere unless it's as a cap clearing move to sign Aldridge (I still think Diaw is more likely) or, like almost any player, if someone blows them away.
Splitter is not replaceable. Like Green, he's more rare than you're giving him credit for and again, if they sign Aldridge, they'll be capped out, with limited trade assets. So forget about signing Koufos or Lopez (neither of whom can defend PF's or pass like him anyway).
Splitter and green versus the clippers is replaceable. Splitter is never healthy, and green can slow people down, and has great team help, but with the type of teams you play in the west, they're going to score. You need players who take the burden off your starters On offense as well. Offense has evolved and isn't dominated by defense anymore, unless of course you're Kawhi. You saw it with patty mills. Can't do much on defense, but even as a role player would change the game. You have to be able to create Offense. Tiago and Green struggle with this. For the loss in defense, if you increase the offensive potency, you're just fine. Definitely replaceable. Remember what green and tiago were before the system made their careers. Danny couldn't stay in the NBA. The Spurs developed him.The spurs system can do the same for others.
If Parker would have shown up last game of Clips series, Danny did more than enough that game to get us to the second round.
Lma might not think Spurs would go after him with Duncan
Kawhi came in as a Rookie and filled that role. He was drafted higher up because he had more potential but rookies can come in and make an impact immediately, especially in a limited role like Greens. Don't forget that before 2011 when we signed Green permanently, he had only played 28 NBA games and shot 32% from 3 and 8 of those were in blowouts the year before for us. On our run to the 2012 WCF our wing rotation of Green/Kawhi was basically two rookies. Someone like Anderson or Hollis-Jefferson with an NBA ready body could play right away. I agree that we would be capped out of assets though.
I actually don't think that the league has caught on tbh, defense is still very much an under-drafted skill. We may not be able to find someone else on par with both his shooting and defense, but I think we can find 80% of what he brings through either the draft or free agency.
the way Berger has got some people talking without citing any solid sources is just...fantastic
Getting hits for your articles during the off-season is probably the easiest part of being a sportswriter/reporter, tbh..
That's not the argument. What he did do, is replaceable. I don't put that series on either one of them, just pointing out that what they did provide wasn't "irreplaceable" and we were still one baskst away from walking to the western conference finals again. It's not the doom day expperience losing splitter and green that the majority of people are buying into because a media pundit said So.
That series was definitely on Parker. I don't think anyone can Argue that. He had horrible decision making, rushed bad percentage shots when we had a lead,extending the time for the clippers in two games for them to come back. He also would not feed the hot players or make plays to get them open. All around just a poor series for him. I think he shot around 35% for the series? That's without mentioning his slow pick and roll defense and lazy transition defense where his man was constantly getting a wide open three.
The Spurs would have lost in the first round last year without Splitter. Don't think so? They lost in the first round this season without a healthy Splitter. It wasn't a coincidence, and it certainly wasn't a sign that the Spurs need to trade Tiago, like some folks seem to think it was. Honestly, Splitter is the most irreplaceable defender on the team. I don't know if there's a better one-on-one big defender in the league. Not to mention the PnR defense and rim protection he provides.
Green is pretty much at that level. Obviously, if he played every game like the played that final one, he'd be a max guy. But he doesn't usually get that close, so he won't get max money. But you want Green's man defense and rim protection on D and on O you want his shooting as well as his gravity, which is what's getting overlooked here. I'm pretty sure someone posted earlier in the year that Green was up there with Curry and Korver when it comes to the extent to which their men stick to them. The fact that Green almost always prevents help from coming from his side is really hard to replace, even if the shooting percentage isn't.
Any other team that would be willing to be a trade partner in that range? Looking at the list it would almost HAVE to be Atlanta.
The other team might be Utah at 12. They already have a solid core of young players, but could stand to bring in the right type of vets to help the team take the next step. Spurs could also swap picks.
Moving Mills would mean keeping Belli somehow. Pop values that instant offense / Eddie House kind of guy off the bench. Can't lose them both.
Not like these ideas will come to fruition, but wiping Diaw and Mills out seems like a bad idea, even for a player close to star-level in Aldridge (or there). I hate wiping out your hugely productive bench players. If anything, I'd do away with Splitter. I understand the arguments about how important he is, but he simply is not healthy enough to be dependable. If you want LMA, you have to trust he can cover well enough for Splitter, because he's literally taking his role. You leave Diaw and Mills on your bench. The team isn't the same without them.
I want. I WANT.
But Pop wants him at any cost/any money?. That's my only worry.
We watched Pop played Beli a lot of minutes and if a defensive scrub like Beli can get long minutes over Danny, Pop can think another player could replace Danny?
Don't get me wrong I don't hate Marco, he was good, made big shots and gave his all, I'm just talking about defense.
Sometimes I'd like to imagine Pop thinking...Yeah I was ruthless on him because Danny didn't know how good he could be.
But at other times, it seems like Pop really thinks that Danny isn't that great.
It's necessary because Tim won't play more than next season.
Who'll defend the paint? With Aldridge, rim protection is going to be a real issue against elite teams.
And we watched Diaw trying to guard Griffin...Just imagine him against Davis, Cousins, Gasol...
In this scenario, you are shifting Splitter to the bench though - so now you have a really successful player and anchor on your bench in Tiago (plus the better fit overall for team need - defense). You lose Mills, but that role can be replaced easier IMO.
Good arguments, but it's Not what I was saying again. I believe if we had a healthy team we walk to the finals again. I agree there. Tiago is great at what he's asked to do, so is green. I agree there too. Neither one was before the spurs. In my opinion, people are not giving the spurs developmental group enough Credit.
They are replaceable, doesn't mean they Will be, or it will be easy but if you ask me which is more responsible for their play, the players themselves or the front office, I'd definitely say the front office.
They can do it again. The fact that the spurs were willing to move Parker a couple years ago for a lottery pick let's you know how much confidence they have in thir process as well.
You act as if Green is Roberson on offense. The problem with this team wasn't that Green and Splitter couldn't create their own offense (if that were the case, they don't go to 3 straight WCF, two straight Finals and win a championship), it was that their two best creators both fell off the face of the earth last season. Nobody has creators at every spot.
Leonard was obviously an exception to the rule. Rookies can make an immediate impact obviously, but not often for a team with championship aspirations. The odds of Anderson (forget Hollis-Jefferson, who can't shoot) being able to provide 80% of what Green does, as a rookie, are extremely unlikely.
They league has caught on, which is why Matthews (before tearing his Achilles, at least), Middleton, Carroll and Green, are all in line to get probably at least $10M annually this off season. Some of that is related to the e in the cap, of course, but even under the current cap, they'd all easily exceed mid level money.
Next season you're probably right about Anderson, but I think he could give us most of what Green gave us in 2012. The Spurs have never thought short-term, and over the next 4 years would I rather Anderson on a rookie deal or Green on $45m? I'm not sure the answer is so easy, of course Anderson is still an unknown quan y and may never fulfil his potential, at least with Green we know what we're getting.
As for the league catching on, I'm still not sure I agree. The players you mentioned will absolutely be getting around $10m or more, but that's because they are established already. Just two years ago Atlanta got Carroll for $2.5m, and Middleton was basically a throw in for the Jennings/Knight trade. My position is a difficult one in that I'm saying 'they're out there' without any knowledge of who it will be, because if I could identify NBA talent I'd be a scout, but I am fairly sure that in a couple years there will be a guy doing a good job for a playoff team in a 3&D role who is sitting in the D League or abroad right now. Patrick Beverley is another example, albeit at the point guard position.
MarShon Brooks is an example of someone who could be a steal on a minimum contract if he is willing to accept the role. He has all the tools to be a decent defender and big time player, but he's out of the league because he doesn't do it. Maybe he's matured and is ready to do what it takes to become a role player? But probably not.
Last edited by Richie; 05-23-2015 at 06:28 PM.
if getting rid of Parker isn't one of the things they're doing, I'm not interested.
Even if Anderson could, since Parker and Ginobili (if he returns) aren't nearly as good as they were in '12, that's no longer good enough. This team needs 100% of what Green provides.
The answer is easy: Re-signing Green, along with signing Aldridge, would give them a chance at remaining a contender in the near future. He'll also have strong resale value.
Carroll couldn't shoot threes two years ago (neither could Beverley, until the Rockets brought him in) and though Middleton was thought to be someone who could grow into a 3 and D role, he wasn't thought of as being great at either. The role also wasn't as valued two years ago.
Brooks is a terrible defender and a sub par three-point shooter.
TD21. Da you talking bout? The smiley face argument is hard to counter.
I said they both fit great, but somehow that means I graded them in a small sample size and determined them worthless.
Oye. Reading comprehension is a vital skill To accompany reading.
I have credit to the front office for developing a couple of nobodies. If you want to say that the front office didn't develop them, that's about your only counter argument. Have fun with that.
I think this is where we fundamentally disagree on Green. The reason I would consider letting Green go is because he doesn't do anything to make up for the decline in production from Manu and Parker, he is just a better, more experienced version of the same player from 2012. As Manu retires and Parker ages, we need more and Green won't be able to give us that. Who he is right now is who he will always be, and that's not a bad player by any stretch, but is it enough over the next 4 years? If we're going to have Aldridge/Kawhi/Parker over the next 4-5 years, we can't just be thinking about what's best for us next season, we need a more long term plan.
Again I agree about Carroll, Beverley etc... that's why we need to identify those players who have the ability but haven't showcased it yet for whatever reason. Clearly it's easier said than done otherwise everyone would be doing it, but the Front Office have a great track record in this regard. Someone like Jamaal Franklin or Adonis Thomas could be that guy, honestly I have no idea, but I'm certain there's one out there.
That's exactly what you're saying. Those two are arguably the best players in the league in their roles. That's not "replaceable" at all. Let's not even talk contracts right now. Who could the Spurs bring in to be Splitter or Green?
And no, the Spurs didn't make either one good players. Splitter was considered the best big in Europe before joining the Spurs. He was 2007's Mirotic or Saric. Don't confuse the Spurs benching him for his first year with them making him into an NBA-caliber player. Green played the same role he plays now when he was in college. That Mike Brown and Byron Scott didn't know how to use him in Cleveland isn't really a scathing criticism. He's become a more refined player, especially mentally, and Pop and the Big Three definitely deserve credit for that. But he's pretty much the same player he was in 2012 skill-wise. If anything, he hasn't lived up to the potential he showed that season. Dude played PG for the team a couple games that year for goodness' sake.
Are Danny and Tiago better players than they were when they arrived in SA? Yes. But that's true for all of the Spurs' roster, including the Big Three and Kawhi. That a player has developed doesn't make them replaceable, and saying that implies that there's nothing special about them that led to their development. The Spurs had too many busts at the wing and center spots for me to believe they'll instantly find someone who can play those roles again.
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