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He's so in' salty there
We saw that salt emerge in him chucking the Lakers out of the playoffs in '03, and then again when he chucked them out the '04 Finals.
, not just this forum, but all over the Internet. Kobe's has a strange Cult of Personality surrounding him.
He's so in' salty there
We saw that salt emerge in him chucking the Lakers out of the playoffs in '03, and then again when he chucked them out the '04 Finals.
Can't blame Kobe for them losing in 03. They had no one to guard Duncan, Bowen hit his threes, and Fisher trying to guard Parker?He's so in' salty there
We saw that salt emerge in him chucking the Lakers out of the playoffs in '03, and then again when he chucked them out the '04 Finals.
Plus you're discounting Bowen's defensive work on Snitch, and the Spurs had tons of bigs to throw at Shaq.
Horry came one three short of winning the Lakers that series. I think if he hit that, the Lakers come out with better morale in Game 6 and finish off the Spurs in 6.Can't blame Kobe for them losing in 03. They had no one to guard Duncan, Bowen hit his threes, and Fisher trying to guard Parker?
But he didn't, and they got flattened in Game 6
Shaq was still shooting 55%. Yet Kobe took like 60 more shots than Shaq that seriesCan't blame Kobe for them losing in 03. They had no one to guard Duncan, Bowen hit his threes, and Fisher trying to guard Parker?
Plus you're discounting Bowen's defensive work on Snitch, and the Spurs had tons of bigs to throw at Shaq.
It cuts both ways, Horry came one three from killing the Lakers in Game 5 in 04. I still can't ing believe he missed that one wide open from the exact spot he crucified Webber. didn't even hit rim, missed by at least a foot.
It's like Kobeists only prop up teammates of Kobe's that aren't a threat to his legacy: Fisher, Artest, Rick Fox, Horry etc.
I would have preferred losing to the Spurs in 2004 as compared to losing in 2003. The Lakers would have breezed through the Mavs and the
Compare that look to the goat Duncan.He's so in' salty there
We saw that salt emerge in him chucking the Lakers out of the playoffs in '03, and then again when he chucked them out the '04 Finals.
07
14
So ing happy I get to still root for the 5-timer and not some rat face snake snitch Bryant.
I mean really, WTF Rob?I would have preferred losing to the Spurs in 2004 as compared to losing in 2003. The Lakers would have breezed through the Mavs and the
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnfOuPtDRfk&t=4m50s
Pau and Shaq are both great, both were vital instruments for the Lakers to win 5 les in 10 seasons. I think your average Lakers fan wouldn't deny that. Kobe won with the benefit of big men, which is a proven formula in the NBA. Nothing wrong with it, and I don't think both stars should be put down to prop Kobe up. Shaq was a brute force down low and Pau was a graceful llama who posed match-up problems for his counterparts.
Too many people are just sensitive here and they want to prop up Cuckan so they spite Kobe with all stats and .
No myth I watched over a 100 plus games a year during the Shaq era. If you think it's a myth, you may be blind. Idk what to tell you. Not only was his dedication lacking but his refusal to have surgery in the off season was a slap in the face to his teammates. Shaqwwas dominant despite all of that but back to the original point, Shaq has himself to blame for being stuck at 4 ringS and for Duncan being the best big of that era.But not only did he get fat he fought with Penny, Kobe and Nash and even left Miami on bad terms no other all time great I can think of left 4 teams on bad terms. But no one here menttions that because it doesn't fit your agenda ...so carry on, Mid.
AI, T-Mac, Wade, Roy, VC, Manu, Ray Allen...
All 7 of those guys 3-peat with Shaq. AI, VC, Wade and Manu probably 5-peat instead of running him out of town.
Kirby was nothing more than a lucky AI. Volume shooter who depended and won chips only due to dominant big men. It's an easy formula.
What's not an easy formula is the media manipulation he perfected to put him in the top-30 discussion. For that, he deserves credit. Only the world's most committed sociopaths could have pulled that off, and he did.
Fisher didn't have it.
Horry didn't have it.
Kobe has it.
Yes, he got lazy and disinterested during the regular season. A lot of players go through that ennui, not just Shaq.
The reason I call, "If Shaq wasn't so lazy we'd have 6 or 7 les" a myth is because he performed near his 3 peat levels in non- le years (post 3 peat).
'03 Series against the Spurs.
By far the best overall stats on the team (statistically, he played Duncan to a wash):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...S_LAL-SAS.html
'04 Finals.
Again, by far the best overall stats on the team (and this was against one of the best defensive front lines of all-time):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...s_DET-LAL.html
Who else averages those numbers against those front lines (David/Tim and Sheed/Ben)?
Shaq did have a couple of rough series for the Lakers pre-3 peat (against Utah in '97 and the Spurs in '99), but who doesn't?
pre-3 peat Shaq was also a damn handful. I remember all the blame he got when Utah swept the Lakers again in '98, but their demise had little to do with him:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...F_LAL-UTA.html
When Nick the Quick (your all-star PG) is shooting 23%, that's hard for any team to overcome.
You mean like these?
Format: DRTG, ORTG, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP
99-00 season:
Shaq: 115, 95, 0.283, 6.2, 3.5, 9.7, 9.3
Kobe: 110, 98, 0.202, 3.6, 1.7, 5.3, 4.7
00-01 season:
Shaq: 114, 101, 0.245, 5.7, 1.6, 7.3, 6.8
Kobe: 112, 105, 0.196, 5.3, -1.0, 4.2, 4.4
01-02 season:
Shaq: 116, 99, 0.262, 5.5, 1.5, 7.0, 5.5
Kobe: 112, 103, 0.199, 4.4, 0.1, 4.4, 5.0
08-09 season:
MVPau: 126, 105, 0.223, 3.3, 1.7, 5.0, 5.3
Kobe: 115, 106, 0.206, 4.8, -0.2, 4.5, 4.9
09-10 season:
MVPau: 120, 102, 0.220, 2.4, 3.0, 5.4, 4.5
Kobe: 109, 104, 0.160, 3.6, -0.1, 3.6, 4.0
Man, I thought Shaq and MVPau will have better stats, but this is just embarrassing. 3 entire seasons with a negative DBPM, and he was chosen to all-D teams? ORTG and DRTG difference of 9 and 5, when MVPau had differences of 21 and 18? Just crazy.
Compare this to Duncan.
In 99, when he was still a 2nd year player, Robinson was the leader of the team, swept all the major stats, but Duncan stepped up major in the playoffs. Besides, Laker fans, due to extreme sour grapes, don't even care about the season.
03, Duncan swept all the stats, and by significant margins in some of them. His WS/48 was 0.076 over the next closest Spurs (Robinson), his VORP was 7.6, while the rest aren't even putting up anything over 2.3 (Bowen being the closest)
05, Duncan manned the defense, led in rating differential, WS?48, and DBPM
07, Duncan once again manned the defense, leading the team in DBPM by huge margins
14, even in his advanced age, and the team responsibilities being much more distributed, Duncan STILL led the team in DBPM.
Just a phenomenal player.
Why write a novel when it's
Kobe 2
Shaq 1
That's it and that's all...Kobe proved that not only did he not need Shaq to win at the highest levels but he could win back to back as lead....something Duncan could never do...Kobe one up'd Shaq in rings and Duncan who despite having multiple Allstars his entire career could never even come close to defending his le thus deligitimizing all of them
No Kobe no rings
No Kobe no gold
I semi agree with this. Him holding off surgery and generally slacking in the regular season forces his teammates to exert more energy during the regular season, making them tired for the playoffs. Additionally, this unnecessary fatigue will cause increased probability of injuries, which may have what caused Malone to get hurt in 04.
His lack of conditioning likely also caused his massive drop off in performance in the later years. Aside from the wear and tear on his body, his refusal to improve weaknesses in his game (expanded range, lateral movement on defense) didn't allow him to change his game to prolong his career (like what Duncan is doing, or guys like Jordan and Magic did). Shaq has the physical tools, the skills (his footwork and passing gets appreciated because of his enormous size), athleticism, and to an extent, the drive, to be the best the league has ever seen, better than Jordan, better than Lebron, better than everyone, but he is "stuck" at to top 7-10 of all time instead. Him goofing off and still make the top 10 of all time tells you how ridiculous gifted he was. He was a big man version of Lebron in terms of physical gifts.
That said, he always stepped up in the playoffs during his prime, always. He likely could have had at least one in Orlando, or if he dedicated himself, stayed in LA and won a few more.
Shaq was always on the bench during key moments of le games watching Kobe take over games and lead the team to victory...when it counted most Shaq was mostly on the bench due to foul trouble or piss poor free throw shooting
Shaq was in foul trouble a lot? Where did that came from?
Well said. And for me this is not about Kobe. Like you said his lack of dedication ABSOLUTELY affected how he declined. Look at Tim. IF tim treated his body and regular seasons the way Shaq did you guys wouldnt have "5"heck you might not even have "4'. And Amb is right with the proper dedication and diet he wouldnt be compared to Duncan and Kobe he would be compared to MJ and Lebron. He was a underrated passer before he got heavy had a quick first step to go along with the power but he put a lot of weight on his body at first it was muscle but he lacked the drive to keep it to just that a la Karl Malone ...
I also agree that the fact he was still dominant is the bottom line and "4" is still 4 even if he needed Wade and KObe (and Horry, Zo, Fish, HAslem) to get there.
But again no one brings up how destructive he was to teams at the end of each stop ...fighting with coaches, management and fellow star players even though Dwight gets murdered for some of the same things. I know Shaq has won and Dwert has not ... but if you are being fear that is part of the story as well. Penny, Kobe, Nash and even Wade all have had pointed criticism of Shaq at some point ...
He was in foul trouble at key points of series vs. Pacers, Blazers Kings, and even SPurs IIRC ...Some was from flops but a lot was from him plowing over Scott Pollard, Brian Grant etc.
Was he taken out at the end of close games because of his foul troubles? I can't recall any of those.
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