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Agreed. For the record, 5/7 >>>>>> 2/6.
Case closed.
Agreed. For the record, 5/7 >>>>>> 2/6.
It was never in doubt, even if Jordan killed his dad due to his insatiable appe e for gambling.
I wont lie, I thought he still had a SMALL chance at GOAT status ...but NOPE. That ship has sailed. Just like Kobe, Shaq, Duncan none can topple MJ. It will happen someday but not sure there is anyone in the league yet that can do it. And he won't be in this draft either.
chosen one. Someone needs to edit LeBrons head on Anakin's body.
I've seen Jordan play. No one will convince me James is better. That's just my honest take on it.
LeBron was getting there though with analytics gaining a lot of popularity in the sports field, but even that has abandoned James.
LeBron shot 40% in this series and has lost in the Finals four times. Those are unforgivable stats for someone who's making a claim at the GOAT status.
Lebron wasn't going to surpass MJ even if he bullied his way to a finals win. In fact, this finals showed how good Lebron is and how crappy the team he played for is, and should forever quash the rings argument as it perfectly illustrates that winning is purely a team accomplishment with contributions from individuals. The failure of management shouldn't fall on the shoulders of Lebron.
That said, I am not sure about >>>>, MJ is about >> Lebron.
Now if Lebron wins the next 6 championships averaging 40/12/12 in the playoffs, shooting 60% from the field, and put in 4 blks and 3 stls, he would be the GOAT, but that's not likely to happen.
Precisely.
Team accomplishments do matter because the object is winning and matter even more when you separate the best of the best. So does Malone, Barkley, Miller all great players do they deserve GOAT consideration? No, They did not ring. LeBron's two may be enough to surpass Bird but tough to put him in the top 5 without at least two more.
Malone does not deserve GOAT considerations because he failed to ring with strong supporting casts. You give Stockton, Hornacek, Eaton, Bailey, Jeff Malone (at different times) and a coach like Jerry Sloan to a player like Robinson, Garnett, Dirk, Barkley, or McHale over a few years, and they win a ring.
Similar to Barkley, he had Kevin Johnson, Richard Dumas (man, that guy was good before he got all coked up), Majerle, Miller, but failed to ring. Not as bad as Malone, but he had a decently strong team, and he had huge flaws in his defense (doesn't really play that much of it) and offense (ball stopper).
Miller was a shooter, he doesn't really create that much for his teammates, his defense was mediocre, he's like a combination of Kyle Korver and Robert Horry, to a degree (and obviously much better). That team wasn't going to ring with Miller as the centrepiece.
As for Lebron over Bird, not yet for me. People really did not remember how dominant Bird was back in the day.
He'll secure a 4-5 spot unless he wins multiple times more.
This. Tbh....real s know their
He's arguably top 5. Most likely and hands down top 10.
I would put him in my all-time 5, tbh. Because I think he is the GOAT SF ... and as much as I love Magic but it's hard to argue that he was a better player at his best than LEbron. However rings will ALWAYS matter to me. And if he had won his ring this year it would be as good as any Magic or MJ won ...but it did not happen and if he does not ring again Im sorry it DOES matter in the GOAT covo and not only keeps him below MJ but a case can be made for Kareem, Magic, Duncan etc. over him. I am not talking peak but career wise. IF we only judge peaks LeBron,Shaq and Hakeem would rate higher than Magic, Duncan Kobe.
As for Malone so he gets penalized for playing with Stockton but no credit he lost to MJ and Magic who are top 5 Players and GOAT at their positions When MJ had Pippen and PJ and Magic had Worthy, Kareem and riles? Again I dont care fact is he is a great player who did not ring but it's funny how you qualify his failure to ring.
Truly, I dont care about all the factors ....bottom line when you are a GOAT you ring. Maybe not right away but you do. And as much credit as Bron would have got for a win this year he still did not ring and that is part of his story. Same as Magic, Kobe, shaq and even duncan who have finals loss or losses on their resume.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 06-18-2015 at 09:23 AM.
My alltime squads:
Center - KAreem
PF - Tim
SF - Lebron
SG - MJ
PG - Magic
2nd Team
C - Shaq
PF - KG (case can be made for Dirk here)
SF - Bird
SG - Kobe
PG - Isiah Thomas
C - Hakeem
PF - Dirk
SF - Pippen
SG - Drexler (a case can be made for Dumars, Manu, Ray went with drexler who led a Finals team and helped Dream repeat)
PG - Steph (I know he just rung and a case can be made for DJ who rang with sonics and Celts but Steph ethered the "PG" and small ball theory so I went there.
Notes:
1. No players I never saw (no russell, West, Baylor)
2. Rings matter: So no Malone, chuck, Stockton.
3. End of the career coat-tailing doesnt count (otherwise GP/Kidd would have case for Steph's spot)
Top Tier:
Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Next Tier:
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Third Tier:
Garnett
Dirk
Barkley
Robinson
Stockton
Kobe
Isiah
Dr. J
West
Rick Barry
Fourth Tier:
Gilmore
Pierce
Drexler
Malone
McHale
Pippen
Havlicek
Payton
Kidd
Chris Paul
Ewing
Mullin
MVPau
Nique
Carter
TMac
Too early:
Durant
Too injured:
Walton - Easily in top 15 if not for injuries
Yao - would have been 3rd or 4th tier if healthy
Hill - would have been 3rd or 4th tier if healthy
Kevin Johnson - would have been 4th tier if healthy for longer
Old Timers:
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Pet
Some pretty lazy analysis here.
Was Lebron really suppose to win the le in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?
He won two NBA finals games on his own.
Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.
It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.
2007 and probably not 2015. Doesnt matter. In the end it's all part of the narrative. I actually WANTED Lebron to surpass MJ. Look at my posts after Game 3 ...if he won this series I was ready to bear witness ...but he did not. He is great. No one that watches hoops and not a hater can deny his greatness. Rings still matter he is a couple short if he can get two more he secures #2 right now he is probably top 5 ...
Also lot's of players including Prime Grant Hill or even Iguadola are better all around players than Shaq. Better, shooters dribblers, etc. doesnt mean they are greater or more dominant.
I get your point that Lebron is a better all around player than MJ but it doesnt make him greater than Mj.
The fact that it was even a series and basically every game was close is amazing in itself.
Most people thought Warriors in 5 and they would win their home games by 30+. And that was before Irving got hurt.
That didn't win on his own...he won a ring on a locked out season...asterisk outta the gate....then he piggy backed Wade..... cant win without a HOF player or 2....J ames doesnt have to face no where near the level of defensive players or teams that MJ and Kobe did...nugga is a loser spin it how you want
I don't think there is a single Pantheon-level player, outside of maybe the super-dominant big men like KAJ or Hakeem, that could have won either the '07 or '15 Finals with LeBron's supporting cast. MJ wouldn't have been able to do it, IMO.
Then again, I don't really care if people think LeBron is at MJ's level or not. Doesn't matter.
2-4.....33% finalz win %
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