Yeah, that's the reason why I feel your evaluation is flawed. Paul's performance when Green was on him and when other players were on him was night and day except for Game Four I think. It was even more stark with Ellis. I think Monta scored two baskets on Green that whole series. The Spurs lost Game Six because Pop inexplicably switched Leonard on Ellis in the fourth. Monta scored most of his points in the closing minutes of that game. There's a reason why people won't "stop with the shutting down opposing PGs stuff", and it's because Green actually does do that better than another else in the league. And unlike Beverly, for example, he does it without getting into foul trouble.
If you go back and watch the games, you would see that Paul and Ellis did their damage against lesser defenders than DG. Any time Pop actually let Green guard those guys, they became less effective. I especially remember this in the Clippers series as many on here were calling for Pop's head any time he let Green guard other players than CP.
Who knows what's going through Pops head at times. I know he likes to switched defenders on guys throughout the game. Green was on Paul the last possession of G7 though I believe. He knows how well he plays on smaller guards even if he doesn't decide to go to it all game for whatever reasons he has.
- Among wing players(3000+ poss or more, so excluding end of bench guys), there were only 5 of them with a DRAPM of 2+, Green being one of them..
Of those 5, Green was the only player to shoot 40%+ from 3-point range..
- Among all rotation wing players, Green was #6 in the NBA in ISO defense, and had the best 3-point % of anybody in the top percentile of the list..
- Only 6 perimeter players had a DBPM over 2, this year: Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Allen, Nic Batum, Antetokoumpo and Russell Westbrook
- Only 1 player in the NBA(eligible, statistically, Pau Gasol and Zeller did it too on limited 3 attempts) shot 40% from 3 and had a DBPM over 2: Danny Green
- 6 players in the NBA averaged 1 BPG and 1 SPG last season: Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Nerlens Noel, Josh Smith and Danny Green..only 1 of those guys is a wing player, and only 1 of those guys shot 40% from 3
- Danny Green was the 8th player in NBA history to average 1 BPG/SPG and >150 3s in a season
- Players in the NBA that had a VORP over 4, this year: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Paul, Lebron, Anthony Davis, Lillard, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Draymond Green, Jimmy Butler, Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green
Among those players, only Curry, Chris Paul and Danny Green shot 40% from 3
Not sure in what universe that's replaceable with somebody on a lesser salary, tbh..only Kawhi and Duncan are more irreplaceable on this team..you can find a Parker on virtually every team in the NBA, Manu is tough to replicate but he's going to be on a minutes restriction, and while Splitter would be tough to replace, his injury history is troublesome..
Pop likes to rotate defenders as much as he can to keep the other guy guessing. And some nights, other players may be more effective. Like you had the Houston RS series where Game 2 Leonard was the most effective on Harden, Game 3 Joseph was the most effective and Game 4 Green.
But Green is historically the best guy the Spurs have to throw at Paul, though. If Pierce goes to LAC, the Spurs are going to have to be able to check three of Paul, Crawford, Lance and Truth at once. While Kawhi is going to do a good job on one and Parker is going to do a bad job on another, you want to be able to have that third guy covered.
I, I think we're done here.- Among wing players(3000+ poss or more, so excluding end of bench guys), there were only 5 of them with a DRAPM of 2+, Green being one of them..
Of those 5, Green was the only player to shoot 40%+ from 3-point range..
- Among all rotation wing players, Green was #6 in the NBA in ISO defense, and had the best 3-point % of anybody in the top percentile of the list..
- Only 6 perimeter players had a DBPM over 2, this year: Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Allen, Nic Batum, Antetokoumpo and Russell Westbrook
- Only 1 player in the NBA(eligible, statistically, Pau Gasol and Zeller did it too on limited 3 attempts) shot 40% from 3 and had a DBPM over 2: Danny Green
- 6 players in the NBA averaged 1 BPG and 1 SPG last season: Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Nerlens Noel, Josh Smith and Danny Green..only 1 of those guys is a wing player, and only 1 of those guys shot 40% from 3
- Danny Green was the 8th player in NBA history to average 1 BPG/SPG and >150 3s in a season
- Players in the NBA that had a VORP over 4, this year: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Paul, Lebron, Anthony Davis, Lillard, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Draymond Green, Jimmy Butler, Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green
Among those players, only Curry, Chris Paul and Danny Green shot 40% from 3
Not sure in what universe that's replaceable with somebody on a lesser salary, tbh..only Kawhi and Duncan are more irreplaceable on this team..you can find a Parker on virtually every team in the NBA, Manu is tough to replicate but he's going to be on a minutes restriction, and while Splitter would be tough to replace, his injury history is troublesome..
Kawhi definitely deserves as much credit for the improved defense but he can't do it by himself. We need at least 2 wing defenders we can drop on the top players and expect them to do a good job in single coverage. There's just a handful of players in the league like that and they're mostly on the all-defensive teams.
People forget that TD did some real work to extend his career and elevate his play.
I agree Splitter's durability makes it tough. The Spurs should have been looking for another backup PF/C that can bring what TS brings to the table defensively. The Spurs have sucked in player development. Ideally you should always be developing guys so that they can replace you're starters. If they get good enough they can replace the starter or you can use them in a trade.
Green's limited skill set is masked in the Spurs motion offense where there are so many moving parts that defenses are forced to switch and recover. This creates open looks for players like Green to get off 3's. In a situation where Green has to create a shot his offensive production would decrease since he cannot put the ball on the floor.
His defensive strength of ball pressure on the perimeter are heightened because of the teams ability to rotate and recover. Often times Spurs players have already rotated to the correct man before the ball is even passed. On a team where players are not quite sure where to rotate he wouldn't be as productive. Green takes a lot of defensive risks (as does Kawhi) which would be frowned upon by other coaches as his risk taking would lead to open layups to basket if a team is not well disciplined as the Spurs.
Also, I don't understand why people seem to want Kawhi to be the only wing defender on the team..half this forum(myself included) has complained about his offensive role, yet some of you want him to exert all his energy on defense, next season(which would be the case if Green is gone)?
It's 2015, having 2 capable wing defenders is more important than ever..the Warriors have 2 of them and also have Draymond Green that can cover some wing players, too..
The Spurs already saw a huge defensive drop-off in all their 5-man units that didn't feature Kawhi and/or Green, their bench wings have struggled on defense for the past 2-3 years, I don't know why the team would make it even more difficult on themselves by losing one of the only 2 reliable wing defenders on the roster..
Not to mention the team will already be minus Splitter if Aldridge is really coming over. Might as well be the 2011 Spurs again.Also, I don't understand why people seem to want Kawhi to be the only wing defender on the team
It's 2015, having 2 capable wing defenders is more important than ever..the Warriors have 2 of them and also have Draymond Green that can cover some wing players, too..
The Spurs already saw a huge defensive drop-off in all their 5-man units that didn't feature Kawhi and/or Green, their bench wings have struggled on defense for the past 2-3 years, I don't know why the team would make it even more difficult on themselves by losing one of the only 2 reliable wing defenders on the roster..
2011: 11th
2012: 10th
That system, though..
- Among wing players(3000+ poss or more, so excluding end of bench guys), there were only 5 of them with a DRAPM of 2+, Green being one of them..
Of those 5, Green was the only player to shoot 40%+ from 3-point range..
- Among all rotation wing players, Green was #6 in the NBA in ISO defense, and had the best 3-point % of anybody in the top percentile of the list..
- Only 6 perimeter players had a DBPM over 2, this year: Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Allen, Nic Batum, Antetokoumpo and Russell Westbrook
- Only 1 player in the NBA(eligible, statistically, Pau Gasol and Zeller did it too on limited 3 attempts) shot 40% from 3 and had a DBPM over 2: Danny Green
- 6 players in the NBA averaged 1 BPG and 1 SPG last season: Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Nerlens Noel, Josh Smith and Danny Green..only 1 of those guys is a wing player, and only 1 of those guys shot 40% from 3
- Danny Green was the 8th player in NBA history to average 1 BPG/SPG and >150 3s in a season
- Players in the NBA that had a VORP over 4, this year: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Paul, Lebron, Anthony Davis, Lillard, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Draymond Green, Jimmy Butler, Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green
Among those players, only Curry, Chris Paul and Danny Green shot 40% from 3
Not sure in what universe that's replaceable with somebody on a lesser salary, tbh..only Kawhi and Duncan are more irreplaceable on this team..you can find a Parker on virtually every team in the NBA, Manu is tough to replicate but he's going to be on a minutes restriction, and while Splitter would be tough to replace, his injury history is troublesome..
I have to admit, I must seriously underrate Green, cause I do not think he is worth 12+. Not with his skill-set. I get the 3 and D, but he's not Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson etc. If it came down to it I'd rather have Wesely Mathews or Arron Afflalo for that money. Maybe even cheaper and these guys can post. Danny can't post. He is a niche player. Post Manu and Duncan, we need players that can be versatile on offense, cause if we don't get Aldridge or some threat on offense, how's Danny gonna get a look. Are we gonna rely on Tony's penetration? Or Kawhi's post ups? I think if he signs with the Spurs it will be for around 9 million, any more than that and I think they let him walk. He's a role player. They are replaceable. Not easily replaced for him, but can you imagine the hate if we are paying him more than anyone on the team other than Tony and Kawhi? We are not gonna do that. It's not worth it. We limit ourselves financially for a niche player. I don't think so.
I don't think the Spurs want to move away from either Splitter or Green, but if it comes down to it, I say Splitter stays. He's a quality big on a good contract and he would be an excellent pairing with LA should he come. Better that than to have a limited two-guard with a bloated contract. Like others have said, I trust the front office to find a suitable replacement. I'm sure they have plenty of "contingency" plans. I mean, it's debatable what's harder to find: a 3 and D wing or a starting Center. They both fit the Spurs need really well. So let's leave off with that what's harder to find?
The Spurs might have already answered this already. They were reportedly shopping Splitter and they drafted two bigs. So I think the Spurs do want Danny, I'm just interested to see if are willing to pay up cause I wouldn't. My guess is he signs a four year deal at 9 per. He sacrifices and proves he's a Spur just like Duncan and Manu. Then some crazy team like the Knicks offers him what we are guessing and he goes. LoL Goes home to New York.
B-B-But the system.....
You were on a roll until this. Lets not overstate his importance by suggesting he is most responsible for the resurgence of the Spurs D. It has just as much to do with a Leonard, Splitter, Duncan weight loss, etc. Impossible to quantify.
2011: 11th
2012: 10th
That system, though..
- Among wing players(3000+ poss or more, so excluding end of bench guys), there were only 5 of them with a DRAPM of 2+, Green being one of them..
Of those 5, Green was the only player to shoot 40%+ from 3-point range..
- Among all rotation wing players, Green was #6 in the NBA in ISO defense, and had the best 3-point % of anybody in the top percentile of the list..
- Only 6 perimeter players had a DBPM over 2, this year: Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Allen, Nic Batum, Antetokoumpo and Russell Westbrook
- Only 1 player in the NBA(eligible, statistically, Pau Gasol and Zeller did it too on limited 3 attempts) shot 40% from 3 and had a DBPM over 2: Danny Green
- 6 players in the NBA averaged 1 BPG and 1 SPG last season: Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Nerlens Noel, Josh Smith and Danny Green..only 1 of those guys is a wing player, and only 1 of those guys shot 40% from 3
- Danny Green was the 8th player in NBA history to average 1 BPG/SPG and >150 3s in a season
- Players in the NBA that had a VORP over 4, this year: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Paul, Lebron, Anthony Davis, Lillard, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Draymond Green, Jimmy Butler, Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green
Among those players, only Curry, Chris Paul and Danny Green shot 40% from 3
Not sure in what universe that's replaceable with somebody on a lesser salary, tbh..only Kawhi and Duncan are more irreplaceable on this team..you can find a Parker on virtually every team in the NBA, Manu is tough to replicate but he's going to be on a minutes restriction, and while Splitter would be tough to replace, his injury history is troublesome..
Are there any stats to show how many times he fumbled the ball trying to complete a layup or how many times Pop took him out because of a defensive mistake or how many times he attempted a pass that didn't reach its target or how many times he was run off the three point line and jacked up a leaning three pointer or how many times he drove to the lane and couldn't complete the layup because of his inability to finish or how about being on the floor in the last minutes of the game instead of a 37 year old back up SG?
Brilliant addition!
Bogans was very much a part of the 2009 Spurs when Tim and Tony were All-Stars.
Saying he isn't as good as Finals MVP Iguodala and max contract Klay Thompson isn't really an insult, tbh
And I agree that Matthews was better, but he was projected to receive near-max prior to his injury, an even bigger payday than Green..players with Matthews' injury don't recover well, though, based on past examples, he's probably finished as a high-level role player IMO..
Afflalo hasn't been a good defender since his 1st year in Denver, I'd rather have Beli, tbh..
Re: Splitter, the question isn't whether a 3&D guy is more valuable than a starting C IMO, since Aldridge would be here, if they have to lose one..it's a matter of a starting SG(the worst position in today's league) vs. the 4th big on the team(which is what Splitter would probably be if Aldridge joins) on a team where Kawhi can even play the 4, too..
That's my issue with green. As good as he can look sometimes on defense he makes big mistakes as well. I feel his defense is overrated by some here.
His lack of ability in dribbling and making a lap is so frustrating. I just don't remember when green became apart of of or big 3?
I'm talking about 2008 - 2009. You could have been talking about the next season.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2009.html
No Keith Bogans there.
2011: 11th
2012: 10th
That system, though..
Aron Afflalo
Why does that ty name keep popping up as a Green replacement?
I agree, I'm not crediting Green entirely for the improvement..Kawhi is the best defender on the team, and Splitter has been massive..however, saying the Spurs system is more important than defensive talent(which is what that poster was implying and has implied in his past posting history by downplaying both Green and Leonard) is false IMO..you can't plug in anybody and succeed, especially when we're discussing a Spurs' defense that has finished 2nd, 3rd and 2nd since the Leonard/Green/Splitter trio was inserted into the SL..
Contrary to the perception that was created because of the Spurs' beautiful brand of basketball in 2013 and 2014, this is a defense-first team..their D has been far better than their offense for the past 3 years..
That all sounds nice, but it's pretty much all slanted incorrectly.
First, the Spurs have the space to run a motion offense because of their shooting, not the other way around. It's Green's gravity that opens driving lanes and clears the paint for post-ups. Having a non-shooter out there would mean that the Spurs would never be able to drive and kick like they do now. No one doubts Danny mainly shoots when he's open (almost everyone who plays on a good team does), but his quick release and smart movement changes what conditions cons ute being open in the first place.
Second, there are plenty of ways to get shooters open that don't require having a complex offense. Having post players or just stars in general will open up looks because those players force doubles. OKC ran a terrible offense under Brooks, but they had no issues getting open looks for their role-players.
Third, Green and Leonard aren't taking risk with their man defense. They funnel guys to Duncan almost perfectly every time. Duncan makes the rotation he's supposed to because that's how the defense is supposed to work. But setting up their men like they do, Danny and Kawhi let Duncan work in a phone booth, where he's still arguably the best defender in the league. When you don't have those guys defending, when the opposing players are actually beating the Spurs wings, Duncan has to play in space, which is usually a disaster nowadays. That's what was happening for most of the Dallas series. You're right that Green will look worse on a team with a less development defensive iden y, but he will still look better than the players around him.
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