If David Robinson and Tim Duncan Switched...

[RoyerReptiles]

I don't want to take anything away from the admiral but I would say that the 2003 team was weaker on paper than some of the 90s teams (before duncan obv.).
And when exactly were the rule changes implemented?

From NBA.com, as far as the rule changes go:

"In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help"

These rules hinder the athletically challenged basketball player, creating the small-ball bonanza we see today. David was an oddity: A 7 foot, one inch super athlete who was generally the best athlete on the floor every night. He is arguably the most athletically gifted (size, strength and speed) player we've ever seen in the NBA besides Lebron James.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...idge.defenses/

To address the point of the 2003 team.....I have to disagree. I mean, seriously, call it what you want, but that 2003 team went through the three time defending champs and a SOLID Dallas Mavericks team to win the le. That was no fluke. Duncan lovers like to give him the bulk of the credit....and while he had an all time great playoff performance, that team played great in the playoffs. Role players stepped up when they needed to, time and time again, unlike the role players from the 90's teams with Robinson. THAT'S been the main difference between the two eras (Robinson led and Duncan led)....the "others", as Shaq likes to call them.

Just take a look at the role players on the Duncan led 2003 le team:

Robinson (yes, aged, but probably still better than any big man Robinson ever teamed up with in his prime, including a headcase Rodman or an older version of Terry mings
Bruce Bowen: As good as Sean ****** was, he was NOT the defender that Bruce was
Manu Ginobili: Young version, but was already considered the best player in Europe at the time. Very good backup shooting guard, and already better than Del Negro.
Stephen Jackson: clutch. Seriously. Very. Clutch. He thrived in the clutch.
Steve Kerr: older, no doubt, but did you see that game six in the 2003 WCF against Dallas?
Tony Parker: young version, but man, this guy was fast, fast, FAST. Even at this stage he had his moments. He miffed in the finals against a superior point guard in Kidd, but then we had....
Speedy Claxton: probably better than every point guard David had in his prime, besides Avery and Rod Strickland. And he was the backup. Remember, there were times when Del Negro ran the point for San Antonio. Ugh.
Malik Rose: I actually miss Rose. This guy was a work horse.
Steve Smith: tail end of his career, but a great vet for the bench
Kevin Willis: Even though he was 40, this guy was a GREAT backup center. He was necessary against those Shaq led Lakers in the semi-finals.

I take that team over every single 90's team, especially with Pop as the coach.

[tholdren]

Lol. OP is a got.

Rob, do you yell "Odoyle Rules!" when riding away on your scooter?

[Russ]

The bigs Mount Rushmore is:

Wilt, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Duncan.

[SPURt]

Lol. OP is a got.

Hey boo!

[RoyerReptiles]

Duncan, no question. Better career, better stats, more jewelry. Next. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem had 2 seasons where he was awesome and borderline unstoppable but lets not get things twisted. Duncan has had sustained success at a very high level for the entirety of his career.

When you say jewelry, are you using championships as your guide? For whatever reason, and I believe it's people getting caught up in the ESPN pundit rating system that puts so much emphasis on 'chips, people just seem to put that category at the top of the list when comparing NBA superstars. If this was tennis or golf, I could see it, but this is a team game. The performance of an individual in a championship or playoff situation is important, but I really believe people need to be careful when using the 'chip as the ultimate guideline for ranking players.

But let's get down to brass tacks on Olajuwon vs. Duncan. You said better career. I can lean that way, but only slightly because of Duncan's longevity and the better teams/coaching he's had. Duncan has him beat in regular season MVPs at 2 to 1, but Olajuwon has what Duncan never got....and that's a defensive player of the year award. He got two of them, actually. , he won MVP AND Defensive player of the year during the same year....along with Final's MVP. Only player to do that. If he had better teams over his career, like Duncan, he probably would have more final's MVPs. Olajuwon was about as good as a two way player as you're gonna get in the NBA, on a similar level to Jordan.

Olajuwon led the league in rebounding twice: '89, '90
led the league in blocks three times: '90, '91, '93
all time leader in blocks over a career at 3,830.
all time leading center in steals.
His career averages over his 18 year career are: 22.5 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.7 spg and 3.1 bpg.
Duncan's career averages (so far) over 18 years are: 19.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.7 spg and 2.2 bpg.

Duncan gets the Assists per game le over Olajuwon, but the other 4 categories per game belong to the Dream.

Duncan finished his 18th season and Olajuwon played 18, so comparing careers is actually a bit more doable than a lot of other comparisons. After 18 seasons they compare like this:

Duncan games played: 1,331 Olajuwon: 1,238
Duncan points: 25,974 Olajuwon: 26,946
Duncan rebounds: 14,644 Olajuwon: 13,748
Duncan assists: 4,062 Olajuwon: 3,058
Duncan steals: 978 Olajuwon: 2,162
Duncan blocks: 2942 Olajuwon: 3,830

Duncan has him in total assists and rebounds, but not by a lot considering he played roughly 100 more games so far. Olajuwon's block and steal totals are STAGGERING!!! He outscored Duncan as well. Being a follower of the NBA since the late 80's and seeing the stat machines that Big Dave and Hakeem were for fantasy bball teams, I had to call out your "better stats" comment. Olajuwon's stats over an 18 year career were mind boggling. I can't imagine what they'd be like if he didn't play those last two years.

Duncan definitely has him on longevity, but man, don't discount arguably the greatest center of all time (arguably....he's top 3 or 4 for sure.)

[Russ]

Duncan definitely has him on longevity, but man, don't discount arguably the greatest center of all time (arguably....he's top 3 or 4 for sure.)

He couldn't even win March Madness (college) with a first ballot NBA Hall-of-Famer (Clyde Drexler) beside him.

[SPURt]

I take that team over every single 90's team, especially with Pop as the coach.

I forgot, 2003 had five HOF's, two in their prime. Some bad takes in this thread, but RoyerReptiles bringing the goods. Duncan has had a better career than every center except arguably Kareem and Russell. I still have a hard time picking against Duncan, one more chip and he and Jordan have had the two best modern careers. So much is still cir stance. Even Jordan needed Phil and Pippen.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I forgot, 2003 had five HOF's, two in their prime. Some bad takes in this thread, but RoyerReptiles bringing the goods. Duncan has had a better career than every center except arguably Kareem and Russell. I still have a hard time picking against Duncan, one more chip and he and Jordan have had the two best modern careers. So much is still cir stance. Even Jordan needed Phil and Pippen.

What?

[SPURt]

What?

Pop and Duncan, though Pop just keeps getting better.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Pop and Duncan, though Pop just keeps getting better.

Pop of 2003 was in his prime? Don't be ridiculous. Spurs of 2003 had no system, had the ups and downs of a rebuilding team, which they were. They just had an incredible Duncan to drag them to a le while having 7 of their top 9 playoff performers shoot 40% or less throughout the playoffs. 2003 was all Duncan, Pop was just there like everyone else.

[SPURt]

Pop of 2003 was in his prime? Don't be ridiculous. Spurs of 2003 had no system, had the ups and downs of a rebuilding team, which they were. They just had an incredible Duncan to drag them to a le while having 7 of their top 9 playoff performers shoot 40% or less throughout the playoffs. 2003 was all Duncan, Pop was just there like everyone else.

Good thing Tim benched Tony, good thing Tim drafted Tony and Manu, good thing Tim inserted a veteran on his last leg and Tim hit all those threes to get the Spurs past the Mavs. You're right Tim was totally alone. After six years of coaching, Pop was totally inept as a coach, good thing Tim was there to bail him out! Lol!

[Silver&Black Warrior]

I find it mildly comical that certain "fans" can critique a player they never saw play (especially during his pre-injury prime). Been a fan of the Spurs since Robinson entered the league... There are games where Robinson outplayed a certain Michael Jordan in his respective prime. That's how great he was. Jordan had a hand in selecting the Dream Team and personally lobbied for Robinson to be the starting center --> Respect. Unfortunately David never had the consistency in coaching, or the continuity of talent and chemistry that Duncan has been blessed with his entire career. For that matter, the ownership transfer to Peter Holt also makes a big difference - previous owners failed to surround David with the players he needed to make the Spurs a championship squad - simply because they didn't want to spend.

Talk of David not being as good a teammate as Duncan obviously have no clue about what they're talking about.

I was just curious as to how you found out that Jordan lobbied for Robinson to be on the Dream Team. Thanks for the info.

[tholdren]

I forgot, 2003 had five HOF's, two in their prime. Some bad takes in this thread, but RoyerReptiles bringing the goods. Duncan has had a better career than every center except arguably Kareem and Russell. I still have a hard time picking against Duncan, one more chip and he and Jordan have had the two best modern careers. So much is still cir stance. Even Jordan needed Phil and Pippen.

even though robinson has better individual stats?

[SPURt]

even though robinson has better individual stats?

Are you stating that in your voice or misunderstanding my position?

[tholdren]

Are you stating that in your voice or misunderstanding my position?

I have no idea what you were saying in that last post

[SPURt]

I have no idea what you were saying in that last post

I was chiming in on the Dream versus Duncan debate (confusingly, my bad). I was making a comment that cir stance contributes to career success.

the first sentence was a defense of the 2003 champs. People saying Avery/Del Negro backcourt led teams were better with the likes of Bob Hill on the sideline.

[Phenomanul]

I was just curious as to how you found out that Jordan lobbied for Robinson to be on the Dream Team. Thanks for the info.

In one of the interviews when both of them were inducted into the HOF.

[CosmicCowboy]

David Robinson was soft.

[ambchang]

I don't think anyone is implying that Robinson wasn't a great teammate or leader; he just wasn't the leader Duncan is.

Tim, along with Russell and Magic, elevated the play of his teammates more than anyone else ever has.

It's much easier to elevate the play of Ginobili, Parker, Kerr, Elie, Leonard, Green, Bowen than it is to elevate the play of Elliott (loved him, but he is no Ginobili), Johnson, Del Negro and Daniels.

[Hyperhypo]

I think The Spurs would have beaten the Rockets. Not sure if Drob would have won in the 2000s but If Drob was in today's NBA mannnnnn the fast game Drob would dominate

[bic50]

F op and F anyone disrespecting DROB. We owe everything we have right now to that dude. Real talk

[Aztecfan03]

haveen't been reading this thread, but if they switched duncan would have still been here in 2004 and 2005 and they would have 3-peated.

[capek]

Drob would murder the league playing with the teammates Timmy has had. And as all time great as Timmy is, there's not a player in existence that could have dragged those 90s Spurs teams much further in the playoffs than Drob was able to manage.

I don't necessarily think that a Drob 2000s+ era Spurs team would have won more les than Timmy managed, but there's definitely no reason to think they would have won less.

[Aztecfan03]

Drob would murder the league playing with the teammates Timmy has had. And as all time great as Timmy is, there's not a player in existence that could have dragged those 90s Spurs teams much further in the playoffs than Drob was able to manage.

I don't necessarily think that a Drob 2000s+ era Spurs team would have won more les than Timmy managed, but there's definitely no reason to think they would have won less.

they probably win 2004 because timmy would be here and maybe more overall in the early 2000s. Probably don't win in 2014 though.

[G-Dawgg]

I followed Robinson since his rookie year when I was in junior high, and I must say he was the better overall player. He was like the ultimate fantasy basketball pick. He was the best overall player in the NBA for a long time as far as total overall stats. In his prime, he won the IBM award 5 times. Robinson was easily the best all-around player in the league during his prime. He did literally EVERYTHING well. There were other centers that were good scorers, rebounders, defenders, playmakers, shotblockers etc, but Robinson was awesome at everything. He was like a Dwight Howard/Anthony Davis hybrid. Too bad he didn't get much of a supporting cast of players to play around him...

"The IBM Award, created to honor the player who contributes most to his team's overall success, utilizes a computer evaluation of key offensive and defensive statistics to determine an overall leader. The formula is as follows: Player Pts. -- FGA+REB+AST+STL+BL-PF-TO+(team wins x 10)x250
Team Pts. -- FGA+REB+AST+STL+BL-PF-TO"

IBM AWARD WINNERS
Season, Player, Team
1983-84 Magic Johnson, L.A. Lakers
1984-85 Michael Jordan, Chicago
1985-86 Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1986-87 Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1987-88 Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1988-89 Michael Jordan, Chicago
1989-90 David Robinson, San Antonio
1990-91 David Robinson, San Antonio
1991-92 Dennis Rodman, Detroit
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
1993-94 David Robinson, San Antonio
1994-95 David Robinson, San Antonio
1995-96 David Robinson, San Antonio
1996-97 Grant Hill, Detroit
1997-98 Karl Malone, Utah
1998-99 Dikembe Mutombo, Atlanta
1999-2000 Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
2001-02 Tim Duncan, San Antonio