Jimmer Fredette to the Spurs (Update: Mostly Non-Guaranteed Training Camp Deal)

[ceperez]

Going back to the subject of this thread, Jimmer Fredette.

Jimmer is a better ball handler and a better shooter than McCallum. The only question is whether his other deficiencies offset these two other areas. This is where PATFO will make a call whether he sticks around or not.

[Spurtacular]

RC says that there is no way they could have afforded Ray McCallum if he was on the free agent open market, and that we were very lucky to be able to trade our second round pick for him. But, you think RC is going to, or should, cut that guy he couldn't have afforded on the open market for a guy in Jimmer that no team wanted.

Seems pretty unlikely, and seems that unless you doubt what RC is telling you about the market, RC and the market both think Ray is better than Jimmer.

I am optimistic about Jimmer as a reclamation project, but I don't think Ray's going to have to be reclaimed to be useful almost immediately.

People say a lot of things at press conferences. RC is on a rookie contract though; so, that is his market if I wanted to get tedious. But sure, maybe a serviceable third string PG would otherwise maybe go for a bit than the rookie contracts. It wasn't a revelation to say something like that.

And no, Buford and the market are not saying that RC is better. For all we know, if Jimmer had been under contract, RC would have made the same deal if it presented itself.

And if we want to talk about who is truly 'better'? Well, check out the per 36 stats; and you'll see that Jimmer blows RC out of the water.

Lastly, people like the DG story and see that Jimmer is down on his luck and they like to use the fashionable term Reclamation Project. That doesn't bother me. But I think you've taken it too literally when you assume that RC is in a position to perform better than Jimmer off the bat. That's just based on nothing substantial from an on court performance perspective whatsoever.

[Spurtacular]

The eye-test tells you McCallum just hast more spring and speed than Joseph.

[ceperez]

The eye test tells me that Ibaka actually thought that CoJo was going much higher but was fooled by his lack of hops!

[will_spurs]

I have no clue who is better or has more upside between CoJo and RayRay, but what is sure is that CoJo isn't worth $7.5MM/y. Not even close. Good for him, though.

[cd98]

The eye-test tells you McCallum just hast more spring and speed than Joseph.

But if you don't believe it, then let's look at the pre-draft measurements:

Joseph

no step vert: 27.5"
max vertical 35"


McCallum

no step vert: 30.5"
max vertical: 40.0"

satisfied? Ray McCallum not being a great athlete? 40" vertical is not athletic? What planet are you from?

Now add that to Bufford's comment that McCallum can handle the offense better than Joseph. That's a comment on a player that hasn't played a single game for the Spurs. What it means is that Bufford has near zero confidence about Joseph's play making ability.

Based on what RC has said about Ray, we should be optimistic. As to COJO, I think his assest was his strength/size combined with his speed. That's what makes him a better defender than Ray, though not necessarily a better all-around PG.

[ceperez]

Based on what RC has said about Ray, we should be optimistic. As to COJO, I think his assest was his strength/size combined with his speed. That's what makes him a better defender than Ray, though not necessarily a better all-around PG.

I'm going to concede the fact that Cojo is a better defender than Ray. CoJo has a bit more size and longer arms, however Cojo defense wasn't elite my any measure. He was the best defender among the PG, but that bar was pretty low when you consider it was Parker and Mills that he beat out.

[littlecoyotecoin]

People say a lot of things at press conferences. RC is on a rookie contract though; so, that is his market if I wanted to get tedious. But sure, maybe a serviceable third string PG would otherwise maybe go for a bit than the rookie contracts. It wasn't a revelation to say something like that.

And no, Buford and the market are not saying that RC is better. For all we know, if Jimmer had been under contract, RC would have made the same deal if it presented itself.

And if we want to talk about who is truly 'better'? Well, check out the per 36 stats; and you'll see that Jimmer blows RC out of the water.

Lastly, people like the DG story and see that Jimmer is down on his luck and they like to use the fashionable term Reclamation Project. That doesn't bother me. But I think you've taken it too literally when you assume that RC is in a position to perform better than Jimmer off the bat. That's just based on nothing substantial from an on court performance perspective whatsoever.

You said RC several times. RC is the GM.

Anyway, so your basis is that you don't believe RC, because anyone can say anything in an interview. I can't argue with that. If you think RC is lying in the interview then I can't very well disprove that. You win.

Jimmer was not on a contract. Because no one wanted him. You can't just suppose a contract for him out of thin air and say "If he was under contract, and McCallum wasn't...McCallum would be in training camp instead of Jimmer!"

Jimmer has been in the league twice as long. He should be getting better. Cojo got better every year. Jimmer got worse. Not saying he can't turn it around, but if he does, it will definitely be a turnaround. He is a perfect candidate for the use of the word "reclamation". He has few NBA opportunities left, apparently. This has nothing to do with Danny Green.

The reason Ray will come in and contribute right away is that he is a point guard, not a combo guard. He will be able to play that position better than a combo guard like Jimmer hopes to be.

I may be too optimistic about Ray, but I think he has a skill set that is going to be able to thrive in San Antonio. If he improves every year like Cojo did (who went from horrible to pretty good in a lot of areas, especially shooting the ball), then Ray is going to be fantastic. I am optimistic about his aggressiveness. It's like the anti-Cojo. Everyone always remembers the Ibaka dunk, but never remembers the times where he dribbled a hole in the ground outside the three point line, or wore a sideways path into the hardwood from sideline to sideline.

He was definitely at his peak when he cashed out and went to Toronto, but I still like today's McCallum over two years ago Cojo, and expect I will like him better than today's Cojo after he gets out of Suckramento, and gets the same opportunity that Cojo had for four years. That can make a world of difference.

Jimmer might be great, in a different role, for similar reasons. But, I believe Mccallum would have had a job in free agency. We know Jimmer did not. And, I believe RC in his interview.

[ceperez]

You said RC several times. RC is the GM.

Anyway, so your basis is that you don't believe RC, because anyone can say anything in an interview. I can't argue with that. If you think RC is lying in the interview then I can't very well disprove that. You win.

Jimmer was not on a contract. Because no one wanted him. You can't just suppose a contract for him out of thin air and say "If he was under contract, and McCallum wasn't...McCallum would be in training camp instead of Jimmer!"

Jimmer has been in the league twice as long. He should be getting better. Cojo got better every year. Jimmer got worse. Not saying he can't turn it around, but if he does, it will definitely be a turnaround. He is a perfect candidate for the use of the word "reclamation". He has few NBA opportunities left, apparently. This has nothing to do with Danny Green.

The reason Ray will come in and contribute right away is that he is a point guard, not a combo guard. He will be able to play that position better than a combo guard like Jimmer hopes to be.

I may be too optimistic about Ray, but I think he has a skill set that is going to be able to thrive in San Antonio. If he improves every year like Cojo did (who went from horrible to pretty good in a lot of areas, especially shooting the ball), then Ray is going to be fantastic. I am optimistic about his aggressiveness. It's like the anti-Cojo. Everyone always remembers the Ibaka dunk, but never remembers the times where he dribbled a hole in the ground outside the three point line, or wore a sideways path into the hardwood from sideline to sideline.

He was definitely at his peak when he cashed out and went to Toronto, but I still like today's McCallum over two years ago Cojo, and expect I will like him better than today's Cojo after he gets out of Suckramento, and gets the same opportunity that Cojo had for four years. That can make a world of difference.

Jimmer might be great, in a different role, for similar reasons. But, I believe Mccallum would have had a job in free agency. We know Jimmer did not. And, I believe RC in his interview.

Two thumbs up! McCallum is 24 years old, Cojo is younger at 23. My expectation is McCallum will be better this year than Cojo was last year with the Spurs. So I like McCallum over today's Cojo and not a Cojo from two years ago. He spent 3 years playing PG in college for his coach dad. He was effective play PG with a dysfunctional Kings team.

Cojo had the luxury of playing with the highest IQ players in the world and despite that, he couldn't orchestrate the offense!!! Think about that for a second, if the PG can't run offense for Spurs then its not the other players who are ineffective, it's the PG!

Jimmer vs Cojo... I will take Jimmer because of higher upside and better PG skills.
Jimmer vs McCallum... I will take McCallum because athleticism gap offsets weaker PG skills.

[ceperez]

BTW... some serious analysis of Jimmer at Project Spurs:

http://projectspurs.com/2015-article...-fredette.html

"If Fredette can learn the Spurs’ team defensive schemes in terms of when to provide help, what to do if you get beat off the dribble, then he could have a chance of trying to earn that 15th roster spot, considering he’s also making the spot-up shots he’s being provided on the offensive end, at a respectable percentage."

[picnroll]

As far as PG is concerned it likely doesn't matter CoJo, McCallum, Fredette. Simmons has the potential to be a better all around backup PG than any of them, particularly when paired with Manu or Anderson.

[ceperez]

As far as PG is concerned it likely doesn't matter CoJo, McCallum, Fredette. Simmons has the potential to be a better all around backup PG than any of them, particularly when paired with Manu or Anderson.

Nice thought... If Simmons ever learns to play PG, he'll be a devastatingly good player. However, realistically, Simmons doesn't have the kind of PG experience as McCallum or Fredette. He barely has any college experience. Did not play PG in the D-league. Nobody is going to trust a rookie for PG duties.

[Mugen]

Damn nigs my bad....23 page thread about a guy who's ceiling is White Gary Neal tbh

[ChumpDumper]

Nice thought... If Simmons ever learns to play PG, he'll be a devastatingly good player. However, realistically, Simmons doesn't have the kind of PG experience as McCallum or Fredette. He barely has any college experience. Did not play PG in the D-league. Nobody is going to trust a rookie for PG duties.

He did play the point in Austin -- mostly whenever Bryce Cotton was called up.

[ceperez]

He did play the point in Austin -- mostly whenever Bryce Cotton was called up.

Does this look like a typical PG play to you?



He's not a PG, otherwise the NBA will have to change the rules of the game!

[ace3g]

He did play the point in Austin -- mostly whenever Bryce Cotton was called up.

This makes a lot of sense along with that article about how Simmons almost called it quits on his career how the Austin Spurs coach told him he would be running the PG spot. Basically changed his perspective on the game, saw things differently, had to read scouting reports, etc.

You could see during the summer league how comfortable he was in the PnR.

Simmons is in the build of a Manu in terms of a SG with PG skills rather than a pure PG.

[ChumpDumper]

This makes a lot of sense along with that article about how Simmons almost called it quits on his career how the Austin Spurs coach told him he would be running the PG spot. Basically changed his perspective on the game, saw things differently, had to read scouting reports, etc.

You could see during the summer league how comfortable he was in the PnR.

PG is the most difficult position to fill in the D-League. Any given year there are a handful of competent point guards in the entire league and they are almost always called up because there is a similar need in the NBA. The D-League might actually be best for shooting guards like Simmons from a pure development standpoint. If a guy has anything resembling an all around game and decent size, it's almost a guarantee he's going to play three positions in the course of a season with all that entails.

[ceperez]

This makes a lot of sense along with that article about how Simmons almost called it quits on his career how the Austin Spurs coach told him he would be running the PG spot. Basically changed his perspective on the game, saw things differently, had to read scouting reports, etc.

You could see during the summer league how comfortable he was in the PnR.

Simmons is in the build of a Manu in terms of a SG with PG skills rather than a pure PG.

Interesting indeed! Spurs should have a rule that they don't sign anyone under 6'5", that way guys like Simmons will be forced to learn how to play point.

If Simmons is forced to play point, then I'll fire McCallum and waive Fredette!

Honestly, Anderson should be playing point and Simmons on the wing. Defensively, they switch players with Simmons on the PG and Anderson on the SG. Anderson pretty much destroyed Batum in one of the regular season games.

[picnroll]

A perimeter defense of Simmons, Green and Leonard would be acious.

Simmons played almost exclusively point in Vegas. Pretty safe to assume the Spurs were testing him out at that position.

[tatteredprince]

Come to think of it:

The current Spurs have 8 players who can play point guard this year:

EIGHT!

1) Parker

2) Mills

3) McCallum

4) Fredette

5) Manu

6) Simmons

7) Diaw

8) Anderson

oh my goodness, embarrassment of riches! This must be the richest collection of playmakers in NBA history!

Incredible!

[ceperez]

Come to think of it:

The current Spurs have 8 players who can play point guard this year:

EIGHT!

1) Parker

2) Mills

3) McCallum

4) Fredette

5) Manu

6) Simmons

7) Diaw

8) Anderson

oh my goodness, embarrassment of riches! This must be the richest collection of playmakers in NBA history!

Incredible!

Yeah... they can all make plays.... but who in this group can defend? Simmons, Diaw is that all?

[tatteredprince]

Basketball is a TEAM game, the Spurs can hide the defensive liabilities of certain players.....

i was just impressed how many playmakers we have this season, thats all

[tholdren]

PG is the most difficult position to fill in the D-League. Any given year there are a handful of competent point guards in the entire league and they are almost always called up because there is a similar need in the NBA. The D-League might actually be best for shooting guards like Simmons from a pure development standpoint. If a guy has anything resembling an all around game and decent size, it's almost a guarantee he's going to play three positions in the course of a season with all that entails.

wholeheartedly agree with this take, but that's just because of how the d-league is comprised. All of these guys in the Dleague were one dimensional scorers, who cannot score effectively, against better, smarter(barely) compe ion. No one is in the dleague to show their stellar defensive skills because there really is no one with that, and nba teams could care less about defense as they could about getting some junk highlight dunk or contested lucky three.

[ceperez]

Basketball is a TEAM game, the Spurs can hide the defensive liabilities of certain players.....

i was just impressed how many playmakers we have this season, thats all

But you forgot to include Tim Duncan, a very good point guard:

[tatteredprince]

hahaha, you are right...

we have a plethora of shooters, we have a plethora of mid-range shooting bigs, we have a plethora of playmakers

how versatile can we get!?

is this enough now to overthrow the Warriors and demolish the Cavs/Hawks?