KD's starting 5- TD at Pf

[$pursDynasty]

My 5: Magic, Jordan, LBJ, TD, Kareem. Not a Lebron fan, but I can't logically put any other 3 in over him, the rest I don't even feel required to justify.

[Phenomanul]

You might want to go back & check on how bad Larry was on defense after his back injury. He couldn't even guard Jordan for a single possession.

That's how badly Larry's back injury degenerated his body. Bird played on that injury for at least 8 years (initially hurt his back shoveling his driveway in 1985) [and broke it again during a scrimmage in 1989].

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about, given that again more than half of those highlights were AFTER Bird hurt his back (most of those highlights were from 86, 87, 88, 89, and 90). Defensively, I'm pretty sure that was Bird blocking and stealing from Jordan on several plays.

As a 36 year old with a broken back, Bird still averaged 20/10/7 in his last season, including torching one of the most athletic teams in the league for 49/14/12... Do you know how many players would kill to get those averages in a season? Yet Bird did it when he could barely jog on the court and would be locked in a body suit after games. He couldn't even sit on the bench anymore, and would have to lie down during games to suppress the pain. Had he not been hampered halfway through his career, there is no doubt in my mind he would have led the Celtics to more championships.

IMO Bird is arguably the best small forward to ever play the game of basketball.

[Kawhitstorm]

That's how badly Larry's back injury degenerated his body. Bird played on that injury for at least 8 years (initially hurt his back shoveling his driveway in 1985) [and broke it again during a scrimmage in 1989].

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about, given that again more than half of those highlights were AFTER Bird hurt his back (most of those highlights were from 86, 87, 88, 89, and 90). Defensively, I'm pretty sure that was Bird blocking and stealing from Jordan on several plays.

As a 36 year old with a broken back, Bird still averaged 20/10/7 in his last season, including torching one of the most athletic teams in the league for 49/14/12... Do you know how many players would kill to get those averages in a season? Yet Bird did it when he could barely jog on the court and would be locked in a body suit after games. He couldn't even sit on the bench anymore, and would have to lie down during games to suppress the pain. Had he not been hampered halfway through his career, there is no doubt in my mind he would have led the Celtics to more championships.

IMO Bird is arguably the best small forward to ever play the game of basketball.

LeBron's prime has outlasted Larry's prime & Bird never won a single le without MULTIPLE HOFers on his squad thus the Miami "Heatles" thing (esp. considering Wade was hobbled & Bosh isn't a legit HOFer) is irrelevant. The numbers LeBron put up in the Finals for an ENTIRE series against two elite defenders (Iggy/Draymond) while carrying a bunch of bums is more impressive than Bird's single game outburst of 49/14/12 while playing w/ MULTIPLE HOFers. Let's not forget that Larry never defended a le despite playing on a loaded team & Larry came up small against Magic in college when he wasn't surrounded by MULTIPLE HOFers.

Larry is the second best SF & probably the best offensive machine in his prime. LeBron is a freak of nature (ala Wilt/Shaq/Jordan) that no amount acquired skill can match it.

[Kawhitstorm]

? Steve Nash is highly regarded as the best shooting PG.

Being the best shooter doesn't equate to being the best scorer. He is the best PnR point guard of his era b/c he can kill you w/ a shot or pass but he wasn't a 1-on-1 scorer. He struggled against Bowen b/c of his size & he did fare well in Dallas when he had to play half-court b/c he couldn't get separation w/o the PnR. Maravich & Curry can get separation at will & murder single coverages. Nash meanwhile mostly exploited mismatches against bigs & never got to the line much. Mark Price was actually a better scorer than Nash while being just as good a shooter.

[lefty]

Bird = GOAT

[Kawhitstorm]

Bird = GOAT

We all saw Bird was the GOAT after Magic slapped him in the NCAA Finals when they both couldn't hide behind HOF teammates.

[SquawkinHawkBigCock]

LeBron's prime has outlasted Larry's prime & Bird never won a single le without MULTIPLE HOFers on his squad thus the Miami "Heatles" thing (esp. considering Wade was hobbled & Bosh isn't a legit HOFer) is irrelevant. The numbers LeBron put up in the Finals for an ENTIRE series against two elite defenders (Iggy/Draymond) while carrying a bunch of bums is more impressive than Bird's single game outburst of 49/14/12 while playing w/ MULTIPLE HOFers. Let's not forget that Larry never defended a le despite playing on a loaded team & Larry came up small against Magic in college when he wasn't surrounded by MULTIPLE HOFers.

Larry is the second best SF & probably the best offensive machine in his prime. LeBron is a freak of nature (ala Wilt/Shaq/Jordan) that no amount acquired skill can match it.

None of those guys would be HOFers without Larry

[SPURt]

What about a small ball line up where you put Duncan at the 5 and have Magic/MJ/Bird/Lebron? That may be my all time starting 5, especially with today's game.

[Kawhitstorm]

None of those guys would be HOFers without Larry

You are right, Nique wouldn't be a HOFer if it wasn't for his duels with Larry which for the most part were a draw but yet Nique isn't even a 1st ballot HOFer b/c he didn't have McHale/Parish. We all saw Larry in the NCAA Finals when he didn't have McHale/Parish by his side.

[lefty]

You are right, Nique wouldn't be a HOFer if it wasn't for his duels with Larry which for the most part were a draw but yet Nique isn't even a 1st ballot HOFer b/c he didn't have McHale/Parish. We all saw Larry in the NCAA Finals when he didn't have McHale/Parish by his side.

We are talking NBA in this thread

Not NCAA with the zone D .... Bird had horrible teammates in college, AIDS State zoned him out with 4 guys everytime he had the ball

what was he supposed to do?

[Spurtacular]

maravich "great passing"

he made flashy passes that made highlight reels but is considered by his peers a ballhog and chucker

A prime (pre knee injury) Pistol could've averaged 40 in the modern era. And he shot so much cos he was on terrible teams. He would've passed more than enough on a team of greats.

[Russo21]

What about a small ball line up where you put Duncan at the 5 and have Magic/MJ/Bird/Lebron? That may be my all time starting 5, especially with today's game.

Sounds pretty damn good with how the game has evolved. I was thinking of that exact line-up to but went with the traditional 2 bigs in the starting 5 instead. Love this starting 5 to, nasty.

[Kawhitstorm]

Payton
Jorn
Bird (surround by 4 first ballot HOFer so he should be Dynomite!)
Tim
Hakeem

Run a PnR w/ Jorn-Hakeem & have Bird spotting up on the strong side. Have Tim cutting/crashing the boards & Payton spotting up on the weakside.

Oh, good luck getting a bucket on this squad.

[Brazil]

Magic
MJ
Lebron.. tbh
Tim
KAJ

[Kawhitstorm]

Magic
MJ
Lebron.. tbh
Tim
KAJ

Playing zone against that team & daring them to make jumpers.

[Phenomanul]

LeBron's prime has outlasted Larry's prime & Bird never won a single le without MULTIPLE HOFers on his squad thus the Miami "Heatles" thing (esp. considering Wade was hobbled & Bosh isn't a legit HOFer) is irrelevant. The numbers LeBron put up in the Finals for an ENTIRE series against two elite defenders (Iggy/Draymond) while carrying a bunch of bums is more impressive than Bird's single game outburst of 49/14/12 while playing w/ MULTIPLE HOFers. Let's not forget that Larry never defended a le despite playing on a loaded team & Larry came up small against Magic in college when he wasn't surrounded by MULTIPLE HOFers.

Larry is the second best SF & probably the best offensive machine in his prime. LeBron is a freak of nature (ala Wilt/Shaq/Jordan) that no amount acquired skill can match it.

1) I said Larry was "ARGUABLY" the best SF... I wasn't trying to diminish LeBron's talents. In fact, I never mentioned LeBron.

2) You tried to belittle Larry's game, and then specifically honed in on suggesting a) that he wasn't a great shooter () and b) that he couldn't defend.

a) ummm apparently you don't realize that Larry was one of the clutchest shooters ever. He can shoot. His 3pt shooting display at some of the earlier 3pt compe ions can attest to that (waaaaaay before the 3pt shot was a staple of NBA offenses).

b) Larry was a smart and pesky defender despite his "athletic" limitations. He always knew where to be on the floor. The context of my previous post was to highlight your mischaracterization of Larry AFTER you suggested that Larry couldn't defend after his back injury. I simply pointed out that the bulk of the highlights from that video clip where he is shown holding his own against Michael Jordan ARE from after his back injury. In other words, your comment was highly misleading.

[Kawhitstorm]

1) I brought up Lebron b/c you brought up the "best SF" argument which is the same position LeBron plays.

2) Where did I state "Larry wasn't a great shooter"? I specifically stated he was the best offensive machine from the SF position.

3) Being a clutch shooter is only a single attribute, if you look at their ENTIRE body of work then LeBron is at least Larry's equal & will eventually no doubt surpass him before it's all said & done.

4) It doesn't matter how pesky he was, Larry wasn't a shut down 1-on-1 defender (he used to get murdered by Worthy/Nique) but he was a great help defender b/c he had an unmatch Bball IQ.

FYI: I picked Larry (not LeBron) as the starting SF on my starting 5.

[myhc]

PG: Magic
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Tim
C: Hakeem

[SnakeBoy]

What does he say? Well I'm not mad?

I think it's "Well he's not fat"

[SAGirl]

Very lively and enjoyable discussion. I would never put Lebron over Larry. Lebron does seem weak minded and can fold at times when you most need him. That would never be Larry. He was an assassin. If games are close you better have a Ray Allen on a Lebron team. That was never a problem for Larry. In fact, per Magic's own words, when he playe "Larry was the only guy he ever feared." He also was so smart and had such hand/eye coordination that he didn't need to rely on freakish athleticism to dominate. He was clearly a BB assassin. Lebron has been great in his own right, but for a dream team, I am taking Larry. Lebron folded against the Mavericks in 2011 and could not conquer his demons until 2012 in a stacked team. His mental weakness almost cost him the le in 2013 and was saved by Allen. There is a chance he may not ever win a le again after his physical advantage diminishes. He's gotten tougher with experience, but the knock on him is that a guy as skilled and physically dominant as he is should have done better.