Jimmer Fredette to the Spurs (Update: Mostly Non-Guaranteed Training Camp Deal)

[Nathan89]

Let's say Tim is resting & Diaw starts, in that case Kyle could play backup 4. There are also times when Diaw looks out of it & disinterested in the regular season thus Kyle would be an option if Pop decides to bench Diaw. Not to mention Pop playing mad scientist & throwing out weird lineups when the team is struggling.

If you look at the Warriors, even though he's a point guard, they essentially play Shaun Livingston multiple positions b/c Iggy plays point forward & handles the ball. Last season they also had D-Lee playing as another point forward thus you can mix & match through out the game. Kyle isn't as good a defender as Livingston but he knows how to use his length & is a high IQ player so he can get by as a backup if Re /Korver can hold their own against starting perimeter players.

In that case Boban would play unless he's not useful and even then Bonner is likely to get the spot. My discussion was mostly regarding situations with full line-ups.

The defense is a big factor. He also more athletic. He's better in the post and he probably gets more favorable matchups against pgs than KA will be getting.

[Nathan89]

Take away KA's fts and you inefficient offensive player tbh.

[Nathan89]

Only major weakness with livingston is his 3's. He can take defenders off the dribble, post, and play off the ball via cuts and running the court quickly. KA doesn't do any of those things as well as him.

[Kawhitstorm]

Only major weakness with livingston is his 3's. He can take defenders off the dribble, post, and play off the ball via cuts and running the court quickly. KA doesn't do any of those things as well as him.

KA can shoot 3 & draw fouls better than Livingston plus he can post-up just a well except he doesn't have a fade-away (KA instead has a hookshot). Livingston is for sure quicker/faster but he's one of the best backup guards in the league for a reason.....nobody is asking KA to be an elite backup player just competent enough to get minutes.

If KA can ever become a 40% 3 point shooter even w/ his slow ass release (Diaw shot 40% in 2013-14) then it will be a game changer since he can put the ball on the floor & draw fouls, drive-and-kick or score w/ his floaters if defender run him off the line. Draymond Green for example became an offensive weapon once he became a threat from the 3 point line before that he was a liability on offense.

[SAGirl]

Aspects of Simmons game that can translate are his "motor" & finishing ability. If you look at Patrick Beverly the guy basically became a starter by being a high motor guy who can irritate opposing guards other than that he really didn't have any quantifiable skill to be a starter. Simmons isn't as much of a fake tough guy as Beverly to become an irritant but he is actually lankier & more versatile on the defensive end. Besides, Simmons is already a better finisher than Danny & a better shooter than Tony Allen so he can get by as a 3rd string backup guard/wing.

Kyle would struggle defensively against starting forwards but he can hold his own against backup. On offense, he already might be the best at drawing fouls on the team b/c he's so crafty.

I agree with you on his potential as 3rd string backup guard/wing. He does have tools to give you some quality minutes. I think he does have potential as a defender and have stated that repeatedly, but I will note he is not as long as Danny, nor has his famous quick feet. He will be adequate for a backup defender though and I am satisfied with that. What I have questions about are the same as Chinook mentions. I saw him in Austin a lot and I know for a fact you do not want him to dribble under pressure. He will be an adequate SG, but not PG. He turned the ball over at a ridiculously high rate in Austin when they lost Cotton and if you notice in SL, they always had him with a ball caretaker PG. You also doubt about his creation for himself and others out the PnR. Etched in my mind is how he ran past Tavares, but Tavares was all the way out almost in 3 pt land territory. PnR coverage in SL was just atrocious. His 3 pt. shooting is also a huge question mark. CoJo for example famously shot very well the 3 ball in Austin and was very reluctant to shoot in NBA, and didn't have the best % (and yes this year he was 36% but he took less 3's than he has ever taken in his career while playing the most minutes. No one who saw him play will mistake him for a 3 pt shooter. Simmons played the same in SL, a very reluctant 3 pt shooter) Again, I like him. I think he has some tools. I am eager to see him play and I think some things will translate, the things that characterize him as a wing for the most part. Cutting to the basket, catching on the move. I like that he finishes strong and will be able to do so through contact as well. He's a prototypical wing and will be better playing off others, as lanes will open up for drives to the basket. I think Manu can find him on passes the same as Kyle, if not better. I stated he has potential, just not the passing and creating for others. That aspect is the one that is very risky to assume.

I am assuming Kyle's foul draw rate will decline because of the Daye/Ayers factor: a lot of guys in SL are foul prone. It is just a reality. However, he does have a lot of craftiness and changes speed, throws fakes, changes direction, throws hesitations, has a crossover, will fake left and go right, will catch guys in the air, can finish with either hand, dribble with either hand, and even pass accurately with either hand. The guy is incredibly skilled in that respect. I even think he's better in post ups when he doesn't try to back down a defender as he's not the strongest guy, like a Leonard. He's at his best when he dribbles around them. He is so crafty, that if he was more athletic, for sure he would have been a lottery pick. Even as a defender he has potential, just not in isolation. As a help defender he's very good, bc he has good instincts. He's also picked pockets plenty even in the NBA. Picked the pocket of Rudy Gay in preseason, and Monta Ellis in that Mavericks game. He gets a lot of deflections and will block shots without fouling because he has incredible length and good timing. I am really high on his potential quite honestly. My one question about him is his 3 pt. shooting. Pop's too apparently, therefore here we are pondering the wisdom of Jimmer vs. Butler vs. Williams vs. Thomas et. al.

[SAGirl]

Only major weakness with livingston is his 3's. He can take defenders off the dribble, post, and play off the ball via cuts and running the court quickly. KA doesn't do any of those things as well as him.

Well Kyle has only just turned 22 and when you saw him this past year was a rookie that was not counted on. Give him a chance this year and we will see. I will be very excited when he kicks Livingston's behind... lol

[Kawhitstorm]

I agree with you on his potential as 3rd string backup guard/wing. He does have tools to give you some quality minutes. I think he does have potential as a defender and have stated that repeatedly, but I will note he is not as long as Danny, nor has his famous quick feet. He will be adequate for a backup defender though and I am satisfied with that. What I have questions about are the same as Chinook mentions. I saw him in Austin a lot and I know for a fact you do not want him to dribble under pressure. He will be an adequate SG, but not PG. He turned the ball over at a ridiculously high rate in Austin when they lost Cotton and if you notice in SL, they always had him with a ball caretaker PG. You also doubt about his creation for himself and others out the PnR. Etched in my mind is how he ran past Tavares, but Tavares was all the way out almost in 3 pt land territory. PnR coverage in SL was just atrocious. His 3 pt. shooting is also a huge question mark. CoJo for example famously shot very well the 3 ball in Austin and was very reluctant to shoot in NBA, and didn't have the best % (and yes this year he was 36% but he took less 3's than he has ever taken in his career while playing the most minutes. No one who saw him play will mistake him for a 3 pt shooter. Simmons played the same in SL, a very reluctant 3 pt shooter) Again, I like him. I think he has some tools. I am eager to see him play and I think some things will translate, the things that characterize him as a wing for the most part. Cutting to the basket, catching on the move. I like that he finishes strong and will be able to do so through contact as well. He's a prototypical wing and will be better playing off others, as lanes will open up for drives to the basket. I think Manu can find him on passes the same as Kyle, if not better. I stated he has potential, just not the passing and creating for others. That aspect is the one that is very risky to assume.

I am assuming Kyle's foul draw rate will decline because of the Daye/Ayers factor: a lot of guys in SL are foul prone. It is just a reality. However, he does have a lot of craftiness and changes speed, throws fakes, changes direction, throws hesitations, has a crossover, will fake left and go right, will catch guys in the air, can finish with either hand, dribble with either hand, and even pass accurately with either hand. The guy is incredibly skilled in that respect. I even think he's better in post ups when he doesn't try to back down a defender as he's not the strongest guy, like a Leonard. He's at his best when he dribbles around them. He is so crafty, that if he was more athletic, for sure he would have been a lottery pick. Even as a defender he has potential, just not in isolation. As a help defender he's very good, bc he has good instincts. He's also picked pockets plenty even in the NBA. Picked the pocket of Rudy Gay in preseason, and Monta Ellis in that Mavericks game. He gets a lot of deflections and will block shots without fouling because he has incredible length and good timing. I am really high on his potential quite honestly. My one question about him is his 3 pt. shooting. Pop's too apparently, therefore here we are pondering the wisdom of Jimmer vs. Butler vs. Williams vs. Thomas et. al.

I would compare Simmons to Iman Shumpert; both are somewhat of a combo guard but they aren't that great of a ball-handler/decision maker or shooter to be a point guard or shooting guard. They are both super athletic w/ size which makes them an asset on defense & although their jump shot is suspect they both can drive/slash & finish at the rim.

As far as Kyle, on his post up he tends to use a spin move to get to the rim or use his length to shoot over defenders after he gets to his sweet spot rather than backing defenders down all the way into the restricted area like Diaw.

[tholdren]

Pop still inked Jeff for $4 Million guaranteed. That's eight times what he guaranteed Jimmer. I'm sure Pop had an idea of what of role Ayres was going to play, and Jeff just couldn't do it. There are objective data out there that demonstrate that Jimmer has NOT been a floor-spacer in the NBA. So frankly, if Pop is expecting that to change, we already know how it's going to fail. Now, if Pop is expecting him to be Beli lite, then we also know how it would succeed.

I find it odd that people would think that Jimmer would be signed to stand in a corner, but his ability to create and take his own shot will ultimately lead to spacing, and/or the inability to double/help. It's too bad NO didnt use Jimmer effectively with Davis, but they had a very similar gunner type in Evans/Holliday.

The other portion is - Decisions like Jeff is baffling. He couldn't do it in HS, he couldn't do it in college, he couldn't do it in the NBA, why sign him?

[tholdren]

The offense doesn't need speed, per se. It needs someone who can drive. Anderson can indeed drive -- in fact, that's probably his best offensive feature. Just like there are more ways for a WR to get open than speed, there are more ways to beat your man to the rim than being fast. Anderson's length and finesse do wonders against perimeter players, and he would certainly force a rotation if he gets into the paint, especially with Kyle having the length to finish over weak rim protection.

Simmons' driving was better in the SL, but it also comes with more red flags. The angles he took relied on him being far more athletic than the guys he was facing, and that's not as likely in the pros. Jonathon's passing for sure looks shaky once you adjust the windows for big-league compe ion. Nothing about what Anderson did is mitigated against better defense. He's not going to go up against 6-10 SFs on the bench. He'll still have his advantages. And playing with a better supporting cast will only help him, as teams won't be keying in on him.

Simmons, Fredette and Butler each has a chance to get that last rotation spot, but it's Kyle's too lose. He just has more upside than the other players, and his rebounding would be a nice bonus given that the second-unit front court is rather small.

I agree with most of what you are saying. I would take "what SA needs" one step further. SA needs a player that can create their own shot, not just "drive."

The point about athleticism is also solid, but on the flip side, I feel like what makes KA successful in SL/DL is his IQ. The players he is playing against are not necessarily athletic, nor intelligent. When he gets to the real floor, the players still aren't too intelligent, but the athleticism might get him. KA does have a higher ceiling than all listed. I just hope he gets some big minutes this year. He's been around long enough to know what he is, and what he isn't. Now, he just needs time.

[Birn]

I'm convinced that Simmons will have some positive impact this season. He stood out in SL due to his athleticism and playmaking ability. He's definitely an NBA player in my view. He's also very smart and knows how to use his teammates. In SL, he could easily slash and get to the basket. In the NBA, he's going against better athletes but he's also playing alongside better players. If he can't get into the lane because of good help defense, he knows he has several elite shooters on the floor that he can pass to for a better shot. He knows not to force anything and is a willing passer which will make him a solid contributer in time.

[SAGirl]

I agree with most of what you are saying. I would take "what SA needs" one step further. SA needs a player that can create their own shot, not just "drive."

The point about athleticism is also solid, but on the flip side, I feel like what makes KA successful in SL/DL is his IQ. The players he is playing against are not necessarily athletic, nor intelligent. When he gets to the real floor, the players still aren't too intelligent, but the athleticism might get him. KA does have a higher ceiling than all listed. I just hope he gets some big minutes this year. He's been around long enough to know what he is, and what he isn't. Now, he just needs time.

I am at a disadvantage when talking about Jimmer because he's polarizing and I have not watched him play on my own. Of Simmons and Kyle I have strong grasp and opinions because I have watched them both play whole games (not just highlights) in Austin and SL and in Kyle's case, also the NBA. Neither guy is a knockdown 3 pt. shooter, but they are versatile and can do different things. Hopefully, they can add the 3 pt shot to their arsenal to be more complete players. Jimmer is a versatile player by all accounts. Even Chinook, who has been critical of his slow shooting as a spot up guy, has admitted that he could be useful in different ways. I wish him the best. He has as good a shot as any of the other wings being discussed of making it.

I think a little bit of whether he makes it or not is not entirely on him, but on the roster needs. If Kyle and Simmons really cannot buy a 3 in practice it would be concerning, to where you might feel you need to pick a wing with size in case there are injuries. Thankfully for Jimmer, I think these two guys are terrific options TBH and I think they will shoot it well enough to where you feel ok rolling with them and picking up an energizer scorer of small size like Jimmer.

[DPG21920]

The offense doesn't need speed, per se. It needs someone who can drive. Anderson can indeed drive -- in fact, that's probably his best offensive feature. Just like there are more ways for a WR to get open than speed, there are more ways to beat your man to the rim than being fast. Anderson's length and finesse do wonders against perimeter players, and he would certainly force a rotation if he gets into the paint, especially with Kyle having the length to finish over weak rim protection.

Simmons' driving was better in the SL, but it also comes with more red flags. The angles he took relied on him being far more athletic than the guys he was facing, and that's not as likely in the pros. Jonathon's passing for sure looks shaky once you adjust the windows for big-league compe ion. Nothing about what Anderson did is mitigated against better defense. He's not going to go up against 6-10 SFs on the bench. He'll still have his advantages. And playing with a better supporting cast will only help him, as teams won't be keying in on him.

Simmons, Fredette and Butler each has a chance to get that last rotation spot, but it's Kyle's too lose. He just has more upside than the other players, and his rebounding would be a nice bonus given that the second-unit front court is rather small.

Disagree about Kyle's upside being greater. IMO, Simmons ability to be a legit defensive option means more to the team than Kyle's upside offensively. Especially since Simmons has shown enough all around offensive game slashing to be really helpful.

I agree with what you're saying overall, I just think Simmons skillset (even though it has more questionmarks than Kyle) is the skillset with the most upside. Having someone legit defensively to give DG a breather is massive.

[DPG21920]

Also with regards to Simmons I don't think SA would put him in a spot to be a "PG". I think the importance of Simmons ball handling comes from what Pop was saying in the videos with Kawhi; People have to be willing to put the ball on the floor when there is an opportunity which Simmons should be fine with.

[Kawhitstorm]

I find it odd that people would think that Jimmer would be signed to stand in a corner, but his ability to create and take his own shot will ultimately lead to spacing, and/or the inability to double/help. It's too bad NO didnt use Jimmer effectively with Davis, but they had a very similar gunner type in Evans/Holliday.

The other portion is - Decisions like Jeff is baffling. He couldn't do it in HS, he couldn't do it in college, he couldn't do it in the NBA, why sign him?

Idiot, Jimmer lost his backup PG spot to Norris Cole after Holliday got injured & eventually lost garbage time minutes to Tony Douglas. #NoExcuses

[tholdren]

Idiot, Jimmer lost his backup PG spot to Norris Cole after Holliday got injured & eventually lost garbage time minutes to Tony Douglas. #NoExcuses

what you wrote has nothing to do with the quote you responded. can you read?

[Kawhitstorm]

what you wrote has nothing to do with the quote you responded. can you read?

"It's too bad NO didnt use Jimmer effectively with Davis, but they had a very similar gunner type in Evans/Holliday."....Idiot, Holliday was injured & the Pelicans TRADED for Norris Cole b/c Jimmer wasn't cutting it. He LOST his minutes b/c he was an incompetent backup PG.

[Nathan89]

Didn't NO fire their coach?

[Nathan89]

Also it has been mentioned it is easier to make 3's in dleague in regards to Simmons but KA shot significantly worse from 3 in dleague.

[Kawhitstorm]

Didn't NO fire their coach?

It was clearly b/c he didn't play Jimmer just like every coach that Jimmer played under as a pro.

[Nathan89]

Just looking at the pre-draft measurements and Simmons bombed the agility test big time. Not sure how many attempts you get but that seemed odd to me. In summer league his reach around defense was a bothering and it happened too often for my liking.

[Kawhitstorm]

Also it has been mentioned it is easier to make 3's in dleague in regards to Simmons but KA shot significantly worse from 3 in dleague.

Nobody is expecting Simmons to come off screen & launch 3s off the curl. The question is whether he can make spot up corner 3s. Last I checked CoJo (the guy Simmons is replacing defensively) wasn't a shooter but he was still in the regular season rotation.

[Kawhitstorm]

Just looking at the pre-draft measurements and Simmons bombed the agility test big time. Not sure how many attempts you get but that seemed odd to me. In summer league his reach around defense was a bothering and it happened too often for my liking.

Are you really using pre-draft measurements to judge a players on-court performance? Simmons has a habit of reaching but so do guys such as Tony Allen/Russell Westbrook otherwise he's an above average defender & one of the best shot blockers from a guard position.

[Chinook]

Disagree about Kyle's upside being greater. IMO, Simmons ability to be a legit defensive option means more to the team than Kyle's upside offensively. Especially since Simmons has shown enough all around offensive game slashing to be really helpful.

I agree with what you're saying overall, I just think Simmons skillset (even though it has more questionmarks than Kyle) is the skillset with the most upside. Having someone legit defensively to give DG a breather is massive.

Simmons' defense and defensive potential especially are getting massively overrated. I didn't think he was anything more than competent in the summer league, and that was just one-on-one. Anderson showed a lot defensively off the ball and surprisingly in transition. Obviously, Simmons is a better option to defend quick players, but the idea that Anderson is some liability as a bench SF is untrue. He can do a lot of help a defense, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him post an elite DRtg next season (even with all of the issues with that stat).

[Nathan89]

Are you really using pre-draft measurements to judge a players on-court performance? Simmons has a habit of reaching but so do guys such as Tony Allen/Russell Westbrook otherwise he's an above average defender & one of the best shot blockers from a guard position.

Pre-draft measurements aren't meaningless that's why they do them. Also was wondering how many attempts they get because the measurement was off the charts terrible. On top of that I was connecting what he frequently does on the court to a specific measurement. I'm still higher on him than KA. So no, I'm not using one thing that seems unlikely to be representative of his athletic ability to judge Simmons.

[ceperez]

Simmons' defense and defensive potential especially are getting massively overrated. I didn't think he was anything more than competent in the summer league, and that was just one-on-one. Anderson showed a lot defensively off the ball and surprisingly in transition. Obviously, Simmons is a better option to defend quick players, but the idea that Anderson is some liability as a bench SF is untrue. He can do a lot of help a defense, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him post an elite DRtg next season (even with all of the issues with that stat).

Any opponent will have difficulty hiding their weak defensive player by having him guard either Simmons or Anderson.

I think Simmons can be a good defensive player (he's got Tony Allen athleticism if not better). Anderson will need help from TV defense, but his length does help him in situations.