:lol Hip-Hop

[DAF86]

Idiot, classic hip-hop is beats & dope rhyme meanwhile punk is a whole lot of screaming & electric guitar.

And yet, punk rock requires more musical depth than hip-hop.

[Kawhitstorm]

And yet, punk rock requires more musical depth than hip-hop.

If your definition of "musical depth" is just acoustics then beat boxing is probably at the bottom of the barrel but hip-hop is beats & rhymes. Otherwise, according to your definition everything outside of classical music is garbage b/c nothing requires more musical depth than classical music. Wack ass Limp Bizkit could yell all day but they are never coming close making a classic hip-hop album. Beastie Boys had wack ass party lyrics but got a pass b/c they were white. Nothing was mind blowing about either bands production whatsoever compared to the J. Dillas of the world......Why? Because hip-hop isn't rock if you call that then stop.

[Spurminator]

And yet, punk rock requires more musical depth than hip-hop.

You seem to have a limited definition of musical depth. You like chords, some melody, verse-chorus-verse structure. That's cool. But that doesn't represent the entire range of what music is.

Hip Hop has been the most influential genre in music the last 35 years, and it has evolved more than any other genre in that time as well.

[DAF86]

If your definition of "musical depth" is just acoustics then beat boxing is probably at the bottom of the barrel but hip-hop is beats & rhymes. Otherwise, according to your definition everything outside of classical music is garbage b/c nothing requires more musical depth than classical music. Wack ass Limp Bizkit could yell all day but they are never coming close making a classic hip-hop album. Beastie Boys had wack ass party lyrics but got a pass b/c they were white. Nothing was mind blowing about either bands production whatsoever compared to the J. Dillas of the world......Why? Because hip-hop isn't rock if you call that then stop.

You seem to have a limited definition of musical depth. You like chords, some melody, verse-chorus-verse structure. That's cool. But that doesn't represent the entire range of what music is.

Hip Hop has been the most influential genre in music the last 35 years, and it has evolved more than any other genre in that time as well.

When I'm talking about depth I'm talking about actually knowing how to play and instrument to make music, Maybe depth isn't the word, maybe it's "degree of difficult", maybe is "musical knowledge", I don't know. What I'm saying is that everybody can make a beat with some keyboards and talk over it while using words that rhyme, whether it's bad or good it's besides the point. Meanwhile, not everybody can play an instrument or sing.

[Spurminator]

When I'm talking about depth I'm talking about actually knowing how to play and instrument to make music, Maybe depth isn't the word, maybe it's "degree of difficult", maybe is "musical knowledge", I don't know. What I'm saying is that everybody can make a beat with some keyboards and talk over it while using words that rhyme, whether it's bad or good it's besides the point. Meanwhile, not everybody can play an instrument or sing.

Everybody CAN play an instrument or sing, not everybody is very good at it. Just like there is a wide range of skill in instrument proficiency, there is a wide range of skill in making beats and writing verses that go along with those beats. Good hip hop is not easy.

[SpursforSix]

Everybody CAN play an instrument or sing, not everybody is very good at it. Just like there is a wide range of skill in instrument proficiency, there is a wide range of skill in making beats and writing verses that go along with those beats. Good hip hop is not easy.

I'm not disputing that there might be a wide range in proficiency in making hip hop. But it's not even close to the same as playing a musical instrument. It's much easier for someone untrained to play a beat machine and come up with something decent as opposed to picking up a guitar or sitting at the piano.

Totally different skill sets and parts of the brain.

[DAF86]

Everybody CAN play an instrument or sing, not everybody is very good at it. Just like there is a wide range of skill in instrument proficiency, there is a wide range of skill in making beats and writing verses that go along with those beats. Good hip hop is not easy.

That's not true. If you give my dad a guitar, he wouldn't know what to do with it but if you give him some keyboards he could probably come up with some beats and some rhymes to rap over them.

[DAF86]

I don't know what's the problem with admitting reality, tbh.

I like hip-hop but if it's basic, it's basic. Nothing we can do about it.

[Kawhitstorm]

When I'm talking about depth I'm talking about actually knowing how to play and instrument to make music, Maybe depth isn't the word, maybe it's "degree of difficult", maybe is "musical knowledge", I don't know. What I'm saying is that everybody can make a beat with some keyboards and talk over it while using words that rhyme, whether it's bad or good it's besides the point. Meanwhile, not everybody can play an instrument or sing.

The issue here is you are throwing blanket statements & are comparing apples to oranges. There is no point in arguing basterdized hip-hop is garbage b/c it is supposed to be garbage marketed to suburban white kids. It's more of a hustle than an actual art form. It's like throwing blanket statements about metal & applying it to all forms/genres of rock.

[Spurminator]

That's not true. If you give my dad a guitar, he wouldn't know what to do with it but if you give him some keyboards he could probably come up with some beats and some rhymes to rap over them.

He would have to learn how to make the beats on the keyboard. Software, sound optimization... not to mention fundamental rhythms. And writing good rhymes isn't that easy.

Your dad could be taught a three power-chord punk song on guitar in 15 minutes and he could play it. And he doesn't need to be able to sing to sing punk.

[DAF86]

He would have to learn how to make the beats on the keyboard. Software, sound optimization... not to mention fundamental rhythms. And writing good rhymes isn't that easy.

Your dad could be taught a three power-chord punk song on guitar in 15 minutes and he could play it. And he doesn't need to be able to sing to sing punk.

Well, learning all those things you mentioned above is a lot easier than learning to play an instrument.

[Spurminator]

I'm not sure what the point of comparing their relative ease is. If it sounds easy to you, then I recommend choosing hip hop as a career path because there's a lot of money to be made if you get signed.

My point is it's easy to make bad music regardless of what form. Just because the tools necessary to make hip hop are more readily available and more naturally learned than the tools necessary to make bad rock, country, folk, punk, metal, or any other form of music, that's not a bad thing. Making good music takes skill, including hip hop.

[Quetzal-X]

ANYONE can play power chords. Most beginners will not learn 3 real chords in 15min much less know when to use them very well. What do you guys make your beats with?

[DJR210]

What do you guys make your beats with?

FL Studio 11 is pretty nice IMO

[resistanze]

playing power chords and growling into a mic = difficult

I can play 2 instruments well since elementary school (alto sax and guitar) and keyboards a bit but I can't rap; you're overestimating what it takes to play an instrument.

[DAF86]

playing power chords and growling into a mic = difficult

I can play 2 instruments well since elementary school (alto sax and guitar) and keyboards a bit but I can't rap; you're overestimating what it takes to play an instrument.

Not really difficult but more difficult and skillful than coming up with beats on keyboards or machines, tbh.

This is like the baseball thread on the NBA forum, why do people have to defend something indefensible just becuase you like that thing?

I like hip-hop and I absolutely hate punk-rock but not because of that I'm gonna pretend like coming up with beats on machines is more difficult and complex than actually playing instruments or that rapping takes more skill than singing. I just take hip-hop for what it is and appreciate that it can produce way cooler sounding stuff than other music styles (like for example punk-rock) in a much simpler way.

[resistanze]

Not really difficult but more difficult and skillful than coming up with beats on keyboards or machines, tbh.

This is like the baseball thread on the NBA forum, why do people have to defend something indefensible just becuase you like that thing?

I like hip-hop and I absolutely hate punk-rock but not because of that I'm gonna pretend like coming up with beats on machines is more difficult and complex than actually playing instruments or that rapping takes more skill than singing. I just take hip-hop for what it is and appreciate that it can produce way cooler sounding stuff than other music styles (like for example punk-rock) in a much simpler way.

Eh, it has little to do with my liking o the genre and more of having enough musical understanding to determine what is more 'difficult'. People who typically can't even play any instruments seem to fall back on that lazy argument on what is 'musical' tbh. Can you play any instruments? Can you rap?

The reality is you can't rap, and the fact you used an old man making a terrible parody of a rap song as your proof that it's easy just points to that lack of understanding on what would make a good rap song. You could never make a rap song with the technical delivery, rhyme scheme and lyrical content of Eminem, Black though, Mos Def, Nas and so on. Again, I could make a song playing three power chords while screaming as say ' see! rock is so basic!' using the same logic you're using.

It's funny you bring up singing, since most rock lead singers ability could never hold a candle from a technical standpoint to actual singers like Ella Fitzgerald, Sinatra, Marvin Gaye, Lena Horne, Mariah, etc. But I don't think you've ever had the need to arbitrarily call out those singers for being basic.

[DAF86]

Eh, it has little to do with my liking o the genre and more of having enough musical understanding to determine what is more 'difficult'. People who typically can't even play any instruments seem to fall back on that lazy argument on what is 'musical' tbh. Can you play any instruments? Can you rap?

The reality is you can't rap, and the fact you used an old man making a terrible parody of a rap song as your proof that it's easy just points to that lack of understanding on what would make a good rap song. You could never make a rap song with the technical delivery, rhyme scheme and lyrical content of Eminem, Black though, Mos Def, Nas and so on. Again, I could make a song playing three power chords while screaming as say ' see! rock is so basic!' using the same logic you're using.

It's funny you bring up singing, since most rock lead singers ability could never hold a candle from a technical standpoint to actual singers like Ella Fitzgerald, Sinatra, Marvin Gaye, Lena Horne, Mariah, etc. But I don't think you've ever had the need to arbitrarily call out those singers for being basic.

Yeah, I play guitar, drums and keyboards. I'm very bad at all those things but I know the basics. As a teenager I had a phase where I would write and rap and on my very biased opinion I was actually somewhat good at it.

I can't sing though.

I'm not going to adress the other stuff you're bringing up 'cause it's clear you're not getting the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that is a lot easier to come up with decent sounding hip-hop tracks than decent sounding songs on other types of styles.

Unless you have no sense of rhythm at all is usually easier to rhyme words with a somewhat decent delivery than actually having the ability to sing.

You need a lot more musical knowledge to make a group of instruments sound good and armonic than coming-up with decent sounding beats on a machine.

I think most reasonable people would agree that is a lot more feasible for rock (or any other style of music) artists to fool around with keyboards, machines and lyrics and come up with decent raps than is for most rap artists to fool around with guitars, drums, basses, pianos, etc. and come up with decent songs where they actually have to sing.

If you don't think that then you either wrong or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[SpursforSix]

You need a lot more musical knowledge to make a group of instruments sound good and armonic than coming-up with decent sounding beats on a machine.

I agree with much of what you're saying in this thread but this statement isn't true. You need zero musical knowledge to make an instrument sound good. You just need the manual dexterity to play the chords or notes. There are tens of thousands of kids who just learn the tabs to their favorite song and with practice, a large part of them can play the song flawlessly. Back in the day, I knew 2 or 3 kids that could play Eruption just like Eddie Van Halen. But didn't know anything about music.

It's even more prevalent today with the internet and the availability of tabs. Kids just learn the tabs without any understanding of the chords or musical theory behind why it may or may not sound good.

That being said, a musician that has put in the time to understand the theory as well as proficiently play the instrument has done something far more difficult and used more intelligence than someone putting down beats and rapping.

[resistanze]

Yeah, I play guitar, drums and keyboards. I'm very bad at all those things but I know the basics. As a teenager I had a phase where I would write and rap and on my very biased opinion I was actually somewhat good at it.

I can't sing though.

I'm not going to adress the other stuff you're bringing up 'cause it's clear you're not getting the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that is a lot easier to come up with decent sounding hip-hop tracks than decent sounding songs on other types of styles.

Unless you have no sense of rhythm at all is usually easier to rhyme words with a somewhat decent delivery than actually having the ability to sing.

You need a lot more musical knowledge to make a group of instruments sound good and armonic than coming-up with decent sounding beats on a machine.

I think most reasonable people would agree that is a lot more feasible for rock (or any other style of music) artists to fool around with keyboards, machines and lyrics and come up with decent raps than is for most rap artists to fool around with guitars, drums, basses, pianos, etc. and come up with decent songs where they actually have to sing.

If you don't think that then you either wrong or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

No, I just don't see you making a point tbh
You've just arbitrarily said it's easier to make a rap song because you can fool around with a keyboard. Youre really overestimating your musical ability, otherwise you should be making millions now. Considering you considered that old mans video an example of something that sounded remotely decent, then I don't put too much stock in that opinion. To each his own.

[Quetzal-X]

I dont know, if you take 3 people with no musical exp and give them a bass, drum kit and guitar and give them 1hr to come up with a song more than likely it would result in cruddy muddled . 3 same people with these beat and music making tools would make somethin more appealing imo. hits anyway, i'm sayin just something good.

Keeping time, for random people off the street is no piece o pie. It is for a beat makin machine though. I wish i knew more about these types of tools that hip hop music makers use.

[SpursforSix]

I dont know, if you take 3 people with no musical exp and give them a bass, drum kit and guitar and give them 1hr to come up with a song more than likely it would result in cruddy muddled . 3 same people with these beat and music making tools would make somethin more appealing imo. hits anyway, i'm sayin just something good.

Keeping time, for random people off the street is no piece o pie. It is for a beat makin machine though. I wish i knew more about these types of tools that hip hop music makers use.

that's a bad analogy to your main point. Sure it's much easier to press a button than play a chord. But that has nothing to do with the mental aspect.

[DAF86]

Sure it's much easier to press a button than play a chord.

That's basically my point. I don't know why people can argue such an evident fact, tbh.

[Kawhitstorm]

That's basically my point. I don't know why people can argue such an evident fact, tbh.

The issue was you didn't specify that you were referring to bas ized hip-hop when you made your original statement. What is so impressive about making garbage music & slapping a "hip-hop" label on it b/c there are no standards in hip-hop? It's the equivalent of a Chinese knockoff being sold as authentic so you might as well put a horn on your dog & call it a cow. Otherwise, I would pit the highest quality of hip-hop production against any punk rock production whether or not they use instrument or drum machine is irrelevant, it's the final product that matters. There are many folks who claim to be a DJ but most a garbage, it takes skills to made a product worth listening.

If you want what a hip-hop band that plays multiple instruments live instead of using a DJ then check out "The Roots":

[Quetzal-X]

that's a bad analogy to your main point. Sure it's much easier to press a button than play a chord. But that has nothing to do with the mental aspect.

How can a song work if the beat is off. A human that can keep time well enough for studio is not as easy to find or pay as it is pushing a button. No beat no hip-hop or rap.