Jimmer Fredette to the Spurs (Update: Mostly Non-Guaranteed Training Camp Deal)

[I. Hustle]

Oh... and you misspelled Chocha.

[Chucho]

You're reaching, fella. Probably for scrotums. You lost. Neal with it.

[I. Hustle]

What exactly was I reaching for? Weren't you the one that first brought up dudes jerking off? Then you jumped right into eroticism. Not a big stretch there. You dove in head first. Now you are talking about reaching for scrotums.

[tholdren]

Look, we can all post gobbledygook and think that makes us sound smart. Again, I'm not saying stats are predictive or prescriptive. But they are descriptive. Martin has been limited by his release (not its speed, since it's fast, but its release point, which is low and off the the side). You can act like it's somehow a trick of numbers that his game favors one side of the floor, but it's just silly to anyone who's not trying to buoy their view that they know what their eyes saw.



Yeah. You haven't demonstrated the ability the analyze a player's game at all. So I don't care if you say you've watched him more. That's even more true because there's no way to verify how much you've watched him. Anyway, yeah, if the numbers say Martin has been biased to the left side of floor, and you eyes and experience seem to think he hasn't, I have no problem claiming your eyes and experience is wrong. No issue at all.



You mean like when the Kings selected Jimmer in the mid lottery? And no one's proven to be a good bet by data. Data explains the past. So it can tell teams who played well in college just fine, and those players can end up being poor pros for a number of reasons. Jimmer is a prime example of this.



I think you misunderstand the timbre of my disagreement with you. It's not, "OMG, I'm so smart that I understand all this stuff you can't because you're just a normal guy." It's, "This stuff is really obvious to anyone who looks, and if you weren't acting so foolish, you could absorb this basic info too." I'm not doing anything hard. You're just trying hard to downplay very easy to see things.



First, why bring Leonard into this? It's like you are a different person in this thread. You know I know Leonard has shooting issues. He's hardly a gold standard to compare floor-spacers. Second, Martin's release isn't slow. It's low, but the dude is 6-7, so it's still much higher than Jimmer's. Finally, I'm confused as to why you think Martin has better advanced stats than Kawhi at all. A quick glance at the stats show that's not true.

See that's your problem, you think that stats can only play one side of the "description" unfortunately your stats being used have about a billion other variables, so to make a conclusion, especially based on release or versatility based on a ridiculous info graphic means nothing, there is no "analysis" of the stat at all. It's baffling really.

Almost as intriguing is the spurs letting tiago go, wasn't he a defensive stat king?

Additionally I tried to type similar but put better. For as "versatile" as you have claimed martin isn't they share similar per. And martin gets to the line 2x as much as kl. Release has nothing to do with versatility. Oh wait the info graphic shows it does. Lol unreal

[Chinook]

See that's your problem, you think that stats can only play one side of the "description" unfortunately your stats being used have about a billion other variables, so to make a conclusion, especially based on release or versatility based on a ridiculous info graphic means nothing, there is no "analysis" of the stat at all. It's baffling really.

Dude, ALL of his seasons look like that. There was a website to show his shot charts for multiple seasons. Are you questioning the validity of the charts? If you're not, then you can't say him not being versatile is a myth. There's literally half of the court where he shoots below average. And not just non-elite. Like he hurts the offense if he's not on the left side.

Almost as intriguing is the spurs letting tiago go, wasn't he a defensive stat king?

Listen, I know you have no idea how stats work. I know that. So I'm not going to go into why you comparing advanced stats to a shot chart is stupid. Anyway, they let Splitter go because he was hurt and they wanted more offense. Pop bench Green for Beli. Did that invalidate Danny's elite defensive metrics?

Additionally I tried to type similar but put better. For as "versatile" as you have claimed martin isn't they share similar per.

PER is a misleading stat (like for real) first off, but that is just one stat. They aren't really all that close in other stats.

For as "versatile" as you have claimed martin isn't they share similar per. And martin gets to the line 2x as much as kl

Nothing to do with advanced stats. And yeah, he gets to the line more. So? Again with the Kawhi comparisons.

Release has nothing to do with versatility.

Of course it does. You act like he gets to the line because he release sucks. If he had a straight and high release, he could do everything he does but FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE COURT. That he would go from an almost exclusively left-side player to a player who could play on both sides would double his versatility, especially as a floor-spacer, which is what my comment was talking about.

Again, seems obvious you haven't watch Martin much at all if you didn't know he was left-dependent. It would be like you trying to say Tim were a three-point shooter. Just horrendous.

[tholdren]

Lol. Don't take into account martin plays on the left wing. Super analysis bro. Are you still in college?

[Spurtacular]

Yeah, slow releases are killers, as are lower release points. Martin has indeed "made it work" with his release, but there are very noticeable side effects to his game.

Like Jimmer, Martin is accurate on corner-threes, but he can't attempt many (only 26 percent of his threes come from the easiest spot along the arch) because people are able to close out on him. His rate of assisted threes is .867 for his career. That might seem like a lot (and it is compared to Jimmer's .615), but it's actually pretty low compared to elite shooters (Green and Korver are at .940 and .962, while Ray Allen in his best years with Boston and Miami was at .916-- though Curry is an obvious exception at .621 and Mills is closer to Martin at .820). Martin's ability to space the floor is definitely affected by his release point, and I also want to say that Martin is extremely side-dominate due to fling-shot form.



From his Thunder days. And this site (http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/pl...tin/shotchart/) for last season. He's not nearly as versatile as he would be if he shot with better technique. Just like Jimmer, his shot locations are affected by his release, but at least Kevin is in the normal playing field.

When people assume that Jimmer can learn to play with his release being so awful, they fail to release that his game HAS ALREADY been modified to account for it. That's why he takes so many more shots off the dribble than he does spotting up, shoots from farther away from the basket and takes almost no corner shots. No one should wonder Jimmer can individually compensate for his limitations. He's done that already. He can do his thing one-on-one, which Kawhi found out when they were in school together.

The question has always been this: Does the way he compensates work in a team context? The answer for him is that it only really works on when a team lets him hold the ball and make his own offense. The more people try to get him into a normal spot-up situation, the harder it is for him to help the team. The more a coach wants him to stand in a corner, the fewer shots he'll be able to get off.

I can see how you would convince yourself of such things; and your thought process (albeit severely biased) is fair in many respects. But the reality is no team has ever committed to finding Jimmer consistently for the open looks on the corner threes. That drive and kick that Kawhi had to Jimmer; it just was not happening everywhere else Jimmer has played.

[apalisoc_9]

Yeah, slow releases are killers, as are lower release points. Martin has indeed "made it work" with his release, but there are very noticeable side effects to his game.

Like Jimmer, Martin is accurate on corner-threes, but he can't attempt many (only 26 percent of his threes come from the easiest spot along the arch) because people are able to close out on him. His rate of assisted threes is .867 for his career. That might seem like a lot (and it is compared to Jimmer's .615), but it's actually pretty low compared to elite shooters (Green and Korver are at .940 and .962, while Ray Allen in his best years with Boston and Miami was at .916-- though Curry is an obvious exception at .621 and Mills is closer to Martin at .820). Martin's ability to space the floor is definitely affected by his release point, and I also want to say that Martin is extremely side-dominate due to fling-shot form.



From his Thunder days. And this site (http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/pl...tin/shotchart/) for last season. He's not nearly as versatile as he would be if he shot with better technique. Just like Jimmer, his shot locations are affected by his release, but at least Kevin is in the normal playing field.

When people assume that Jimmer can learn to play with his release being so awful, they fail to release that his game HAS ALREADY been modified to account for it. That's why he takes so many more shots off the dribble than he does spotting up, shoots from farther away from the basket and takes almost no corner shots. No one should wonder Jimmer can individually compensate for his limitations. He's done that already. He can do his thing one-on-one, which Kawhi found out when they were in school together.

The question has always been this: Does the way he compensates work in a team context? The answer for him is that it only really works on when a team lets him hold the ball and make his own offense. The more people try to get him into a normal spot-up situation, the harder it is for him to help the team. The more a coach wants him to stand in a corner, the fewer shots he'll be able to get off.

Great Post

Also 188

Spurtacular

[apalisoc_9]

Why is the jimmer fanboy comparing a ty offensive player to a high end offensive player who was the james harden of basketball before james harden in terms of drawing fouls and just an overall brilliant scorer and savy off the ball player?

[benfti]

But remember Jimmer = Patty Mills



the same.

[Spurtacular]

Why is the jimmer fanboy comparing a ty offensive player to a high end offensive player who was the james harden of basketball before james harden in terms of drawing fouls and just an overall brilliant scorer and savy off the ball player?

Ariza?

[tholdren]

Why is the jimmer fanboy comparing a ty offensive player to a high end offensive player who was the james harden of basketball before james harden in terms of drawing fouls and just an overall brilliant scorer and savy off the ball player?

I don't think anyone is. Conversation is on release. It would be great if Leonard could get to the line like martin

[Nathan89]

Should just start Jimmer now that Parker is out.

[spursistan]

the news about him getting cut should fall in the next 48 hours, no? Pop said regular rotation will the focus next few home games..

[Chinook]

I can see how you would convince yourself of such things; and your thought process (albeit severely biased) is fair in many respects. But the reality is no team has ever committed to finding Jimmer consistently for the open looks on the corner threes. That drive and kick that Kawhi had to Jimmer; it just was not happening everywhere else Jimmer has played.

Do you think the Spurs are going to commit to finding JIMMER looks? Meaning are the Spurs going to treat him differently than any other shooter? I don't think so. Fredette hasn't been spotting up at his usual distance, which is why he's gotten like two spot-up shots off so far in the pre-season. It's one thing for him to be able to shot off broken coverage (like that Kawhi play you keep mentioning). It's another for him to shoot out of the half-court with normal rotations.

[Spurtacular]

Do you think the Spurs are going to commit to finding JIMMER looks? Meaning are the Spurs going to treat him differently than any other shooter? I don't think so. Fredette hasn't been spotting up at his usual distance, which is why he's gotten like two spot-up shots off so far in the pre-season. It's one thing for him to be able to shot off broken coverage (like that Kawhi play you keep mentioning). It's another for him to shoot out of the half-court with normal rotations.

Spurs will want to find Jimmer for the open looks just like they do with Green and Mills.

[Chinook]

Spurs will want to find Jimmer for the open looks just like they do with Green and Mills.

And you don't think that the Pelicans gave him the same looks they gave to Gordon, Anderson and Pondexter? Or Chicago that gave him the same looks that Dunlevy and Snell got? Why did those guys have the ability to spot up in their offenses but Jimmer struggled?

[SAGirl]

What should be alarming to Jimmer fans is that he's bricked open shots he's gotten and has had to put the ball on the floor a whole lot bc he's unable to take some looks thAt even shooters like Reggie Williams have attempted. He does have a slow shot and he is a small guard with short arms. It's a problem.

I think he's got a chance to be cut just simply bc he hasn't done what you thought he could do well and all the other things he does someone else can do better. However, in his favor, there is a chance he stays bc Tony is brittle. He's already got guaranteed money and the situation with Tony could be a regular occurrence.

[Spurtacular]

And you don't think that the Pelicans gave him the same looks they gave to Gordon, Anderson and Pondexter? Or Chicago that gave him the same looks that Dunlevy and Snell got? Why did those guys have the ability to spot up in their offenses but Jimmer struggled?

Do you think the Spurs won't be looking to give Jimmer the type of looks they are trying to get for Green and Mills?

[Chinook]

Do you think the Spurs won't be looking to give Jimmer the type of looks they are trying to get for Green and Mills?

For Jimmer's sake, I hope not. They have to find a way to create extra openings for Fredette if they want him to shoot anywhere near what Mills and Green are expected to.

[Chinook]

What should be alarming to Jimmer fans is that he's bricked open shots he's gotten and has had to put the ball on the floor a whole lot bc he's unable to take some looks thAt even shooters like Reggie Williams have attempted. He does have a slow shot and he is a small guard with short arms. It's a problem.

I think he's got a chance to be cut just simply bc he hasn't done what you thought he could do well and all the other things he does someone else can do better. However, in his favor, there is a chance he stays bc Tony is brittle. He's already got guaranteed money and the situation with Tony could be a regular occurrence.

What also works in his favor is that Butler may be competing with Bonner as much as he's competing with Jimmer. Fredette has been mainly useless so far in the pre-season, but he hasn't been a bad as Bonner. If the team thinks Butler can play stretch-four better than Matt, then maybe Jimmer hangs on as the sixth wing.

[Spurtacular]

For Jimmer's sake, I hope not. They have to find a way to create extra openings for Fredette if they want him to shoot anywhere near what Mills and Green are expected to.

That's nonsense.

[Chinook]

That's nonsense.

I'm curious how you're planning on explaining why these same offenses that are too bad to give Jimmer open looks have multiple players who took and made spot-up threes at an elite rate. How are Holliday and Davis passes to Eric Gordon or Quincy Pondexter money but the same passes to Jimmer are sub-par?

[SAGirl]

What also works in his favor is that Butler may be competing with Bonner as much as he's competing with Jimmer. Fredette has been mainly useless so far in the pre-season, but he hasn't been a bad as Bonner. If the team thinks Butler can play stretch-four better than Matt, then maybe Jimmer hangs on as the sixth wing.

I have also been very intrigued by this development, Pop could just be experimenting to see how well Butler does. MAtt has rarely played and always in the best lineups and those lineups with him have not done well. In comparison BUtler has been in less favourable lineups and has contributed enough to be a plus with those guys. If you switch one with the other in Butler's lineups I am nit sure Bonner would have done as well.

The other guys have been sent to the wolves to sink or swim in whatever lineup, Bonner has not. It leads me to believe he's safe bc he is so beloved that he will only be cut if they really need his spot. Does anyone in the motley crew bump Bonner out?

[Sean Cagney]

jimmer is done

Yep, that didn't take long. Good riddance.