Do the Spurs need to change the starting back court?

[Obstructed_View]

Anderson should be the starting point guard, and everyone knows it.

[ElNono]

I'd say the starting two is the spot the Spurs feel most comfortable starting an inexperienced player. Before Danny locked it down five years ago, it was like public bathroom in Tokyo with how much traffic (and how much crap) came through. The reason why that position was so dynamic is because it was just a place-holder for Ginobili. Even though the player was a starter, they weren't a closer, and they usually trailed far behind the second unit in terms of MPG. The same thing would be true in this case, except Anderson would be losing minutes to Green in addition to Manu. In fact, the Spurs could probably better regulate Manu's minutes by letting Green be the sixth man and having Ginobili come in when Leonard sits.

That's because back in the day, both Tony and Tim, the focal point of the offense and the guys that brought all the attention, were guys that generally make good decisions with the ball (passing, etc).

But that's an old story now. Our focal point guys now are either too new (LMA) or have not developed that yet (Kawhi) and so the surrounding cast needs to be quicker and smarter, especially offensively.

I would've agreed with your assessment up until last season. This thread actually investigates the notion that such assumptions might not be the same due to the change of offensive focus.

[ElNono]

Or Pop needs to stagger lineups more and take Parker out sooner and give him more minutes w/ 2nd unit and Patty more minutes w/ 1st unit. Don't necessarily have to start Patty to accommodate OP's notion.. tbh

That would work too. The point isn't really about starters vs bench, but how we make the starting unit work better offensively.

[Chinook]

If there is to be a change in the starting backcourt (and I'm not in favor of it at this point), I would think you would have to replace Parker with Manu. Then put Parker in with the second unit along with Green and Diaw. Problem then is that you use too many Manu minutes, and we all know what happens when Manu gets used more minutes than his aging body accommodates.

There's a lot of good ideas in your post. I'll just focus on this part, as I really agree with most of the rest. I think the issue is that Green and Parker really don't fit as well together as they used to. I don't see that pairs as Parker/Green and Mills/Ginobili anymore. Parker is kinda on an island, and Green really is a better fit without Kawhi and Aldridge trying to score.

[ElNono]

Yeah, I've noticed the Parker-Green pairing this season leaves a lot to be desired. Partly what got me thinking into this whole thing.

[Brazil]

I don't think Spurs should change anything right now... I'm maybe a half full glass dude but Spurs debut are fine considering the context.

We lost against Wizards because of a TOV feast, this was due to happen at one point. Kawhi is carrying the load, defensively he did not lose anything, offensively he has to adapt a bit to his usage rate increase, clean turnovers, improve 3 pts shooting... but nothing you can complain about tbh... Green is struggling a bit but no way he lost his bb during the offseason, he will catch up. LMA is getting more comfortable but it takes a bit of time and Parker is playing his new role, he also needs a bit of time. When those obvious adjustments are made, Pop will have the elements he needs to evaluate a change of the starting 5 imo.

[Brazil]

Yeah, I've noticed the Parker-Green pairing this season leaves a lot to be desired. Partly what got me thinking into this whole thing.

there is no reason the fit between those 2 be worst now than last year tbh... Green is having a rough start, Parker is trying to play a new role... Green will catch up and Parker will improve in that regard... once we are there let's review the fit issue

[RD2191]

Brazil just had to this thread up.

[Brazil]

I can't see Manu starting because of the reasons people have indicated in the posts here: 1) the second unit needs his leadership (Diaw can create plays but lacks the leadership that Manu brings), and 2) Manu can't match Green's defensive abilities.

In terms of Mills starting, I think it would be worse. Presumably the point would be to use him to spread the floor. Problem with that is that, similar to Manu, Patty would be a defensive liability compared to Green, and his strength is in 'letting it fly", but the first string is a bit too orchestrated for that.

If there is to be a change in the starting backcourt (and I'm not in favor of it at this point), I would think you would have to replace Parker with Manu. Then put Parker in with the second unit along with Green and Diaw. Problem then is that you use too many Manu minutes, and we all know what happens when Manu gets used more minutes than his aging body accommodates.

The only real problems I see with the starting unit is that the team is not accustomed to Kawhi and LA being the first and second scoring options. They are all trying very hard to make that happen, but it takes Green out of his rhythm (as someone else pointed out), and we very often end up with crowded spacing when Duncan and Aldridge are near the paint and Kawhi is trying to iso with his back to the paint. It is just too crowded. As Kawhi improves at passing out of double teams to the right shooter (he is learning this skill but it is taking a bit), and as Aldridge gets more comfortable with where he needs to be in general, and as Kawhi and Aldridge become more comfortable in an offensive set that involves either or both of them going one-on-one, I think things will improve.

Remember last year when the beginning of the season was a mess of watching four of our starters watch Kawhi try to iso while standing and waiting to see if it would work? It was not pretty.

This year is not pretty.

I think the call for a line-up change in the backcourt is premature, but I don't expect it to get very pretty any time soon.

The bajillion turnovers last night was a combined function of Washington turning up the speed and us being too dumb not to fall for it, and the (too) frequent unforced errors by not being sufficiently focused.

We'll get there I think...

give 'em time.

I share your analysis, it is a bit premature...

[GreggPopAsnitch]

If Lma's trash ass doesn't get his fat ass rolling , nothing is going to work.

[elbamba]

Neither move addresses my biggest concern which is true three point shooting. Spurs have Danny, who can't throw a stone in the ocean right now, and Patty. KL has not shot well and will never be a legitimate three point threat. Manu's numbers show that he is more of a streak three point shooter than a true one. I think the Spurs are going to need to address this if they want to beat teams like Golden State. Spurs won't be able to score enough points to win.

[RD2191]

If Lma's trash ass doesn't get his fat ass rolling , nothing is going to work.

I agree with this statement.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's alarming that none of the players in the 1st unit have been drawing double-teams or getting penetration to force the opposing defense to rotate, tbh..

Kawhi has fully taken advantage of the 1 on 1 coverage, but the team isn't going to win by having a single player shoot 20+ per game without any offensive structure..

Aldridge post-ups have been relatively poor, and it appears that every opponent is content with allowing him to play his matchup without sending help, nor should they..

Parker has played his role well, but it's very evident that he's slow and doesn't have a first step vs. his opponent anymore, which kills any chance of penetration..his role is mostly running the offense and scoring vs. mismatches now, which is fine, but it's a tough fit in a unit that doesn't have playmaking..

Green suffers most from these cir stances, as he obviously relies on others to create shots for him in rhythm..he has missed some of his open 3s, but just from the eye test(I'm going to make a thread that examines the numbers soon to verify), he's getting far fewer quality looks than he has in previous seasons..

If we're being honest, only Parker-Duncan and Duncan-Aldridge in the high-low have any chemistry in the starting unit, right now..Parker-Aldridge has looked bad, Kawhi-Aldridge are naturally a weird fit, and Green has fit poorly because none of the other starters are natural playmakers(other than Parker, who no longer has the speed, and Duncan from the key)..

[apalisoc_9]

Anderson not cutting with the starting unit on the court seems like random speculation. Remember that Kyle is likely going to draw the worst perimeter defender if he starts. So he's going to be open. I agree that letting Anderson iso on his man may lead to bad offense, but that's not going to be much different from LMA and Kawhi doing the same thing. Right now, Danny is drowning on the floor due to not getting looks in rhythm. I don't think surrounding Kawhi and LMA with shooters is going to generate a ton of good looks, because as you said, they aren't play-makers.

Obviously, I agree on the defensive issue. But Parker is going to keep starting, so if anything is going to change, it's Green.

You act like misdirections isnt dependent on offensive gravity. Im just going to ignore that you said LMA and Kawhi posts ups are the same as kyle.

One play that i havent seen pop do at all this year is the hammer with kawhi passing to danny. Seen it once. ..I dont understand why they hatdly run plays for danny...

[Kawhitstorm]

Porker's game isn't conducive to being an effective bench player & Danny has to play w/ the big boys to get open looks when the defense cheats. The solution is to bench Porker in the 4th quarter. Heeeeeroooooooo Ball (c) Enirique

[Kawhitstorm]

It's alarming that none of the players in the 1st unit have been drawing double-teams or getting penetration to force the opposing defense to rotate, tbh..

The solution is to run a Kawhi/LMA high PnR, if the defense switches & the mismatch on LMA will force a double team. Kawhi playing ISO ball like Melo or calling 4-down plays for LMA isn't going to force the defense to send double teams. The Mavs basically run a high PnR set w/ Dirk/Terry when the Mavs were contenders b/c both players were deadly mid-range shooters ala Kawhi/LMA.

[apalisoc_9]

Porker's game isn't conducive to being an effective bench player & Danny has to play w/ the big boys to get open looks when the defense cheats. The solution is to bench Porker in the 4th quarter. Heeeeeroooooooo Ball (c) Enirique

I said this at the first page. Who starts isnt that big of an issue. Who ends is..

Manu-Green-Leonard-LMA-TD is perfect..pop is just concerned with tony ego..

Hes basically dragging us down from a perfect closing unit.

[ElNono]

I don't think Spurs should change anything right now... I'm maybe a half full glass dude but Spurs debut are fine considering the context.

We lost against Wizards because of a TOV feast, this was due to happen at one point. Kawhi is carrying the load, defensively he did not lose anything, offensively he has to adapt a bit to his usage rate increase, clean turnovers, improve 3 pts shooting... but nothing you can complain about tbh... Green is struggling a bit but no way he lost his bb during the offseason, he will catch up. LMA is getting more comfortable but it takes a bit of time and Parker is playing his new role, he also needs a bit of time. When those obvious adjustments are made, Pop will have the elements he needs to evaluate a change of the starting 5 imo.

I respect the opinion that nothing should change and we just might need to wait it out, but this thread isn't a reaction to the last game. Even in the games we won, it's been clear that the starter's offense has been extremely reliant on jumpers and the lack of ball movement and playmaking has been pretty glaring, tbh...

I don't know if changes in the backcourt will fix anything or not, just an idea to discuss...

[MaNu4Tres]

One thing I'd like to see is LMA lose about 10-15 pounds tbh..

Right now he has heavy legs. Those heavy legs will prevent him from reaching his optimal effectiveness.

Reasons why:

A) If he's going to shoot a lot of jumpers, he needs his legs and weight to be right to reach optimal efficiency. Even if he's more a set shooter it's still a relevant issue -- his legs need to carry less weight and at the same time be in better shape. If not, the inconsistent jumper will remain a problem for the overall offense. (those who have actually played basketball can understand this)
B) At same time, he needs to be lighter on his feet to be able to beat his man off the dribble from pump fakes when his defender over commits w their contests. Would help his effectiveness/efficiency when attacking the basket from 10-15 feet out.
C) Lastly, he needs to lose some weight in order to be able to defend PnR's more effectively since most points are being scored off perimeter play now days. Lighter legs will help his hedges, and the team's overall defense.

Losing the extra weight will help him become a much better player on both ends of the floor imo...

By the way, it's okay for Spurs fans to point out sensitive issues like weight gain. Last year many posters pointed out Parkers weight gain and they were right to a degree. They may have went a little overboard w/ funny photoshops ect, but they weren't wrong in their opinion. Even Parker recently said he had to lose 8-10 pounds this offseason -- which he did and you can tell Parker is lighter on his feet and has his feet under him in his jumpers and floaters this year.

[milkyway21]

Something I just mentioned in another thread, but I think it's worth discussing on it's own.

When the focal point of the starters' offense was Tony and Tim, it made sense to have Danny and Kawhi spacing the floor and a relative non-factor offensively like Tiago doing blue collar work.

But now that the offense will be largely focused on LMA and Kawhi, would the Spurs be better served starting somebody like Patty to space the floor instead of a ball dominant PG? or perhaps go the other way, starting Manu next to TP and have more playmaking?

I know it's early, but the starters have really struggled creating offense, and I thought this might be something worth discussing.

(and playerfan krews please keep this civil, thx)

Might be a good idea.

How about more Mills minutes. Not actually starting but give him more minutes for a change edp when LMA is on the floor.

[Brazil]

I respect the opinion that nothing should change and we just might need to wait it out, but this thread isn't a reaction to the last game. Even in the games we won, it's been clear that the starter's offense has been extremely reliant on jumpers and the lack of ball movement and playmaking has been pretty glaring, tbh...

I don't know if changes in the backcourt will fix anything or not, just an idea to discuss...

Don't get me wrong it's a good discussion... Last game starting 5 has been quite awful tbh, it is clearly a work in progress... all the points you made are valid, just saying a bit premature at this stage, still something to look at for sure.

Question is to know if one can fix the lack of spacing that mostly is the cause of lack of ball movement and a lot of isos / jumpers or not.

Arguments in favor should be:

- The famous 3 pts shoot LMA is supposed to use more,
- Kawhi/Green shooting again at a decent clip from 3s,
- LMA and Tim getting used to play together thus better position off the ball,
- Kawhi improving his playmaking and using more penetration and dish out so that the team relies less on Parker to create open looks to shoot the 3s,
- Parker shooting a bit more of 3s too if he has the legs and getting better at finding his team mates

all those "conditions" are not unreachable tbh... that's why I'm on the wait and see camp

[Brazil]

One thing I'd like to see is LMA lose about 10-15 pounds tbh..

Right now he has heavy legs. Those heavy legs will prevent him from reaching his optimal effectiveness.

Reasons why:

A) If he's going to shoot a lot of jumpers, he needs his legs and weight to be right to reach optimal efficiency. Even if he's more a set shooter it's still a relevant issue -- his legs need to carry less weight and at the same time be in better shape. If not, the inconsistent jumper will remain a problem for the overall offense. (those who have actually played basketball can understand this)
B) At same time, he needs to be lighter on his feet to be able to beat his man off the dribble from pump fakes when his defender over commits w their contests. Would help his effectiveness/efficiency when attacking the basket from 10-15 feet out.
C) Lastly, he needs to lose some weight in order to be able to defend PnR's more effectively since most points are being scored off perimeter play now days. Lighter legs will help his hedges, and the team's overall defense.

Losing the extra weight will help him become a much better player on both ends of the floor imo...

By the way, it's okay for Spurs fans to point out sensitive issues like weight gain. Last year many posters pointed out Parkers weight gain and they were right to a degree. They may have went a little overboard w/ funny photoshops ect, but they weren't wrong in their opinion. Even Parker recently said he had to lose 8-10 pounds this offseason -- which he did and you can tell Parker is lighter on his feet and has his feet under him in his jumpers and floaters this year.

that's a very valid point tbh

[UNT Eagles 2016]

This is like Bads City, USA.

Butler is like Green by worse in every way.

Who's going to trade for Green using essentially a cheaper Green and a rotation big?

I assume you were joking about the under the table money. But Green doesn't have any trade exemption. In fact, he's never had one his whole career.

Anyone in the first-year of a contract has a player-option trade exemption via bird rights.

[coachmac87]

The problem is Tony Parker. He's holding or dribbling waaaay too much and doesn't play with the right pace or tempo. It's like sometimes he penetrate to score waaaaay too much compared to driving and kicking or passing to start the ball movement. I feel like Parker is the one struggling most to the adjustment needed to be made. He must become a playmaker and he needs to average career high in assist. He needs to get LMA and Green easy looks...

[SAGirl]

Anderson just lacks the experience to start right now, IMO. That's a non-option at this stage.

I think the workable options would be: Patty-Green, Tony-Manu, Manu-Green and not much else, taking also into account the defensive side.

I would completely discount Manu starting. Pop is going to limit him more than he ever has. He is scheduled to not play many B2B and he should be around 20 minutes ideally. Patty has an increased role, at which he has struggled. Him and Tony have had ballhandling issues. His court vision is not better than Tony's, he's just more unlikely to dribble/dribble and would rather pass to cut for a shot and a better 3 pt shooter, but in terms of setting others up, and court vision you have a tough case in favor of Patty. Danny can run the simplest side PnR and has improved in passing, but I feel that as it concerns to Danny, he's prone to klutzy plays, that means that he really needs chemistry and familiarity more so than others to know what he needs to do and who he can set up for shots how. Otherwise, he will be prone to wild chaotic play.

Slowly but surely, Pop has to give a chance to Kyle. He was subbed as SG for a few minutes I believe. As much as everyone says he's redundant, our PG/SG combos lack in playmaking except for Ginobili, the one man you don't want to run to the ground this early.

I saw some PnR between Kyle and LMA in preseason that I have not seen anyone else run except Ginobili. Flame me, but we need some Anderson here or there. We are not getting enough playmaking in the starting unit. I know Pop wants Kawhi to be this point forward type, but honestly, he's not. Pop has said himself that elite passing can't really be coached. Do you notice how Manu just makes everyone play better??? Diaw??? No one else in our starting unit has that except TD, and him and Lamarcus are getting in each others' ways a whole lot. Tony and Danny are not these elite passers. Tony has been good bc of his uncanny chemistry with TD, and finding Danny for 3s, but what they are doing right now is something else.

You have to let Kawhi do his thing, because he is awesome, but he can't do it alone, and how do you fit everyone else? I don't know.

Not sure how this is going to turn out. I believe Kyle can help, just because he is an unselfish player in the Diaw mold. He will be fine finishing with 5/6 assist and 2 shots quite honestly. I believe he is the kind of guy who improves ball movement. He's also able to finish a possession if they get stuck and nothing comes out of what they were doing, we have seen him take shots at the end of the shot clock or draw fouls. The Spurs have been developing his decision making, but also his ability to get his own shot under duress if the ball ends up in his hands and he has to create. At this point, its up to Pop. He's being the tough coach that is making him earn it. That SAC game in preseason, Kyle was the best player in that game. He had some high assist games in low minutes with the bench in preseason and was a positive in several games. He was awesome next to Boban in the Rockets game. I mean, the guy is a terrific passer and we are stuck. If someone can run PnR with Boban, I wouldn't say that is easy!!! I mean we have talent but he's in the tough love/doghouse.