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Have the starters ever really played the "Beautiful Game", though?
IIRC, the starting unit has been more effective on defense than offense the past few years(excluding the last 2 months of 2015, where Kawhi went off)..
Look at any compilation vid of the Spurs passing, and it will typically involve Manu, Diaw, and Duncan (all elite passers for their position) in some form.
The starting lineup, outside of Duncan, has no real playmakers. Tony can occasionally be a playmaker, but now that his penetration isn't what it used to be, he can't get the defense scrambling and rotating off dribble drive penetration. Tony's penetration was key in initiating the Spurs motion offense. He would kick to the corner, defense would rotate, if the corner 3 wasn't open, the shooter would pass, and the ball would eventually be worked around to an open shooter or find a cutter.
The starting lineup features 3 players who all excel in iso-post up situations (Kawhi, LMA, and Duncan, but he's fallen off in that regard). You're not going to see much motion offense with this group, especially since the lineup has no elite penetrators and finishers and only one (sometimes) elite shooter.
The Triangle (or a modification of it) makes much more sense for the starters than the Beautiful Game offense. Problem is, the Triangle usually needs a 3 point threat at the PG to create spacing for the triple post and uses a great deal of cutting. Though, I could see LMA and Kawhi excelling in the weakside two man game that begins with LMA at the elbow.
And all the variations of that hand off play.
Have the starters ever really played the "Beautiful Game", though?
IIRC, the starting unit has been more effective on defense than offense the past few years(excluding the last 2 months of 2015, where Kawhi went off)..
Last edited by HarlemHeat37; 11-09-2015 at 12:12 AM.
All the more reason to start MVPatty tbh.
Beautiful Game was always with Manu Patty Bobo imho. Starters are too iso-centric, given with the talent though and the lack of time to adjust, it's a given.
The triangle can be a very good option for our starting five. Parker can do what fisher did he is a good 3pt shooter when set and that kind of offense doesn't need much movement from the pg. It would be a really good option to use some of those sets.
Shades of it now and then, when Parker was at the height of his dribble-drive powers where he was able to collapse the defense, but they never centered their offense around it, unless Manu came in.
I think Pop found something last game by running more pin down screens for LMA and hitting him off motion. LMA was on pace for a 25 point game if not for foul trouble. Don't want to see ball sticking post ups unless it's a mismatch.
Kawhi's offense worries me. As pretty as his turnaround jumpers off the post are, I don't think you can run a wing post up offense in today's league and expect to win the post-season. I'm hoping Leonard turns into a better penetrator. He may not have the hops to be an elite finisher, but he has the length and strength.
Our 2 biggest scoring threats are iso players. It reminds me of the Melo/Stoudemire situation in NY a few years back. Grinding out buckets down low every possession isn't a recipe for success unless you have deadly 3PT shooters to space the floor to punish double teams. We really only have DG right now and Kawhi can hit them but he's often the one in iso, which means he doesn't count as much as he should.
Ideally we need a second (ideally third) 3PT shooter on the floor that isn't Kawhi or Aldridge.
Playing more minutes for players like Mills, DG, Manu and Bobo to knockdown 3s is what we need to start the beautiful game. Manu and Bobo are the most common instigators of those sequences as because they're the best playmakers. Combos like Mills+Manu+TD or Mills+Bobo+Green around Kawhaldridge is the best way we'll see the beautiful game imo. I don't think you can do it without taking out at least 2 starters (assuming you're keeping your best 2 scorers on the floor at the same time).
Also not saying to play Manu more, he needs rest. But no reason not to have Mills out there more with the other 4 starters and mix Parker into second unit sometimes. He can still start but at some point you need to force other teams to make the decision between focussing on stoppingt Kawhi and Aldridge and make DG and Mills hit 3s, or force Aldridge and Kawhi to make plays 1on1. Either situation works for us I think, but you can't do it if you're running only 1 legitimate 3PT option in Green.
Unless Parker becomes a legit 3PT spotup threat we have to mix the lineups around better.
Last edited by Neurosis; 11-09-2015 at 12:38 AM.
where does that leave Parker, though?
He's not super fast off the dribble, and when he's had the ball in his hands to create for others and not to score, he's tended to turn it over. It's just not his game TBH. He has evolved into a scorer. He's better scoring than trying to set others up. I made a comment about it in another thread. That I do think the SL needs a glue guy, a passer who will make the right reads to take them to another level offensively. Who that passer is? I imagine in the post season Pop will use combinations of Manu/Boris to bolster passing when needed, but also there will probably be a lot of iso.
Both styles of offenses can co-exist together and be mixed...Sometimes Kawhi/LMA isos will take over and other times they'll move the ball...
Charlotte coach, Clifford said "You can't pigeonhole yourself into one style"
With All-Star caliber players LaMarcus Aldridge and Kawhi Leonard leading the team in touches, the Spurs — in Clifford’s view — should be a big mid-range shooting team.
“I wouldn’t fight it either,” Clifford said. “Aldridge isn’t a normal player. He’s a star-level player. With Leonard, both of them could be superstars.
“If you have someone of that talent, you’re going to play to the strengths of your best players.”
In LMA/Kawhi case that means isos post and mid-range shots
Play him either when you don't have Kawhaldridge on the floor together, OR when Bonner is on the floor with them...but seriously which one would you choose?
Parker isn't horrible but he doesn't have a place in an offense centered around Kawhaldridge (as it should be).
His offense isn't based just on post ups...He can't be too reliant on that post-game since his teammates can't consistently make an entry pass to him...
Anyway, we saw some nice team-work with him coming off a screen for a quick release jump shot, Tim found Kawhi several times in the game against Wizards when he cutting to the rim...
Agree with you, I'd like to see him attacking the hoop from different angles more often until he finds his way...but for some reason Pop doesn't encourage him to do it.
Edit: 63 FG% restricted area, 53.3 FG% in the paint...he seems to be a decent finisher after all, also an efficient mid-range shooter 50 FG%.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#...ge%20FGA&dir=1
Last edited by YGWHI; 11-09-2015 at 01:38 AM.
Well, Parker didn't exploit mismatches in the last games...and Tim/Manu/Boris can't play 48 minutes...it's likely we'll see a lot of more LMA post-ups.
Nice post, tbh..
Parker really hasn't been as bad as the perception here, so far, offensively, at least from a scoring standpoint..he's scoring fairly efficiently, he's drawing fouls, and he's taking good shots, for the most part..however, the problem is that his style of play is currently a poor fit for the starting unit, unfortunately..
He can't consistently penetrate past defenders anymore, and when he does, it has mostly been for scoring, rather than drawing a rotating defender to him..Duncan is the only other starter that he currently has any synergy with IMO..with Aldridge and Leonard(and even Tim) on the floor, you have 2 superior options for running an ISO/1 on 1/conventional offense, which renders Parker useless off the ball..
So it's not that Parker has played poorly, he really hasn't IMO..he's just the worst option out of the starting unit creators(excluding Green), and he's currently an awkward fit with the new direction of the team, unfortunately, unless he starts making 3s at a high clip..
The starters have always relied on defense and the bench guys were always their to make a run. Remember our two biggest threats are ISO players so it makes sense for the starters to play differently.
Imo, they've been like this for a couple of years but now it's even more apparent with Leonard rise and bringin in Aldridge
Pop said so himself in his last interview, The starters run different sets and have a different offensive structure than the Bench guys.
Kawhi, Green are both capable of playing within a ball moving offense..This is evident when they play with the bench and they do it a lot every game.
Aldridge can't fit with the ball moving spurs..He's a high usage player that relies on the post and that's not exactly how the ball moving spurs operate...
I think any lineup with Aldridge on it regardless if Manu and Boris are playing is going to be less ball movement..He just isn't that kind of guy..and that's knock on him, he just really hasn't played in that kind of system before.
I haven't seen much action from Parker with the bench to say if he can play the beautiful game with the bench or not.
Aldridge has seen some limited action with the Bench (because of the WEst/Diaw rim protection issues specially). He acts as a roll man, basically same as TD (just TD is less agile). His presence in the paint opens it up on the perimeter. They do post him up occasionally, particularly when they want to slow the tempo to close a quarter to limit the posessions so they an end with the last one or something. He is mostly there to crash the O boards, and roll, like a Tiago role. Its not the optimal use for him, but that is not to say they can't play with him. He can also get the same PnP shots that Manu sets up for West for example. He'll be fine.
How many 3s has lma taken? I expected more tbh
Less than 5 probably.
He's heavily reliant on post up to get his points..
I dont know the numbers but i havent seen aldridge roll even once..
As already mentioned the ball movement needed for the beautiful game wouldn't be the best strategy for the starting 5 considering the personnel.
I'd like to see Duncan more often closer to the ring, not playing the high post so much and perhaps more Kawhi/Aldridge PnRs. Currently these are the only two things I'd change for the starting 5.
I got zero problem with Kawhi's offense just as long as it comes with the flow of the offense and is used to exploit mismatches.
The problem is with Aldridge offense since he usually doesn't have a mismatch and has the best rim defender on him. What I have yet to see and I am waiting for is to see a two man game with either Duncan or Leonard. What I see lately is that too many time Aldridge is caught unprepared when he gets the ball and he has to think what he's going to do next.
I don't think he's taken any this season!!
West has taken one, but it was with time running out.
They need to have LMA take 2-3 3 pointers a game to keep spacing.
That's imo part of the issue. LMA worked his 3s this offseason and idea was to see him taking more of those. Doing so that would solve a good part of spacing issue. For now he is not shooting those 3s and neither Spurs are running plays for him to do so. I think they are trying to get him going on what he's good at, mid range and post up, when he feel comfortable they will probably go for that 3 shooting
This. Haven't seen them do it yet.
He's shot two 3-pointers so far this season, one against OKC, one against Boston. No makes yet.
Not worried about it, though. He'll expand out his game once he's comfortable in the offense.
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