charles Barkely: "Kawhi leonard is a top 5 player in the league"

[dweaver99027]

2010-2013 Lebron was probably the best 2-way player in league history IMO, but ya, his defense fell off a cliff in 2014, and furthermore in 2015, tbh..understandable with the load he carries, the wear&tear and his current age, but still, I wouldn't necessarily classify him as a 2-way player "today", despite his strong defensive start for these first 2 weeks of 2015-2016..

So, in the Finals, which he is almost sure to reach, he cannot be an elite 2-way player even if he tries? Is that what you're saying?

[HarlemHeat37]

So, in the Finals, which he is almost sure to reach, he cannot be an elite 2-way player even if he tries? Is that what you're saying?

I'd be pretty shocked if he could be an "elite" 2-way player deep into a playoff run after all the miles that have been put on his body, and the offensive load he has had to carry during this time..he's physically declining, as well, as you would expect at his age..

He has more mileage on him in a 5 or 6 year span than any player in NBA history IIRC..unlike virtually all perimeter stars of the past and present, Lebron ac ulated all that mileage while playing on both sides of the ball, too, on teams with no rim protection..

[dweaver99027]

I'd be pretty shocked if he could be an "elite" 2-way player deep into a playoff run after all the miles that have been put on his body, and the offensive load he has had to carry during this time..he's physically declining, as well, as you would expect at his age..

He has more mileage on him in a 5 or 6 year span than any player in NBA history IIRC..unlike virtually all perimeter stars of the past and present, Lebron ac ulated all that mileage while playing on both sides of the ball, too, on teams with no rim protection..

All true. But: Breaking down with mileage and age is expected but a good indicator of how early that occurs is injury history. Which is pretty much zero for Lebron. Maybe this man is just built differently. I'll wager that if he is not playing in the Finals without his 2 best sidekicks again, and thus not having to iso on every possesion, he can still be an elite 2 way player in the Finals. If he wants to lock Kawhi down, he probably will because of his physical advantage.

Jordan himself could (and would) not maintain elite effort on both ends during the early Chicago years, his D came and went because of fatigue and frustration with lack of help from his teammates. And MJ was south of 30 then , in his physical peak. Nobody with a rational mind should expect a player to be a lockdown perimeter defender consistently while also being a one-man offense. Nobody has ever done it at the biggest stage, and nobody ever will.

[YGWHI]

I can also post a bunch of plays where Kawhi's been burned on D. Remember how he played the second half of the Clippers series?

Kawhi's defensive assignment was Re . In the last three games JJ was shooting better but he still averaged only 13 ppg in the series, in the next series against Houston he averaged 16 ppg.
Kawhi didn't help him go supernova like LeBron's D did..Talking in Spurs-system terms of supernova=Kawhi scoring 23.6 points ppg in the last three games of the Finals.

[YGWHI]

The hate is strong in this forum

If you think I hate LeBron for posting the videos, you're so wrong. I always say he's one of the greatest players of all time, one of the best ever. But his defense has been overrated, his athleticism would make you assume he's one of the best defenders in the league, he is not.

[Arcadian]

He is. There are not 5 other players who affect the game on both ends like he does. Two way stars = the real superstars.

[LarryDavid]

Definitely top 10

Lebron
Curry
Durant
Westbrook
Harden
Davis

Uphill battle to prove he's better than any of those tbh until he breaks one of those players in a 7 game series.

2014 Finals don't count?

[Arcadian]

[deleted]

[T_L_P]

He is. There are not 5 other players who affect the game on both ends like he does. Two way stars = the real superstars.

By your definition, Leonard is > Curry, correct, since Steph isn't a two way star?

[Arcadian]

By your definition, Leonard is > Curry, correct, since Steph isn't a two way star?

I would say for most of their careers, Kawhi will be more valuable. Right now Steph is just going through a period of insane offensive dominance that makes him a top 5 player. Basically, your point is that exceptions can happen. But in general, I'll take two way players (especially forwards and centers) over scoring point guards.

[Thomas82]

I'd be pretty shocked if he could be an "elite" 2-way player deep into a playoff run after all the miles that have been put on his body, and the offensive load he has had to carry during this time..he's physically declining, as well, as you would expect at his age..

He has more mileage on him in a 5 or 6 year span than any player in NBA history IIRC..unlike virtually all perimeter stars of the past and present, Lebron ac ulated all that mileage while playing on both sides of the ball, too, on teams with no rim protection..

All true. But: Breaking down with mileage and age is expected but a good indicator of how early that occurs is injury history. Which is pretty much zero for Lebron. Maybe this man is just built differently. I'll wager that if he is not playing in the Finals without his 2 best sidekicks again, and thus not having to iso on every possesion, he can still be an elite 2 way player in the Finals. If he wants to lock Kawhi down, he probably will because of his physical advantage.

Jordan himself could (and would) not maintain elite effort on both ends during the early Chicago years, his D came and went because of fatigue and frustration with lack of help from his teammates. And MJ was south of 30 then , in his physical peak. Nobody with a rational mind should expect a player to be a lockdown perimeter defender consistently while also being a one-man offense. Nobody has ever done it at the biggest stage, and nobody ever will.

+1

[Kidd K]

When SI.com and ESPN ranked Kawhi top 10 player some guys here were talking about him and the rankings...now he's easily a top 7-8 player.


Not sure, Barkley said Kawhi was a top 10-15 player three years ago, he always praised him.

Are you sure he's said "top 10"? I've never heard him say that before this season.

Kawhi is arguably top 10 now though. Top 15 easily.

[Cry Havoc]

2010-2013 Lebron was probably the best 2-way player in league history IMO, but ya, his defense fell off a cliff in 2014, and furthermore in 2015, tbh..understandable with the load he carries, the wear&tear and his current age, but still, I wouldn't necessarily classify him as a 2-way player "today", despite his strong defensive start for these first 2 weeks of 2015-2016..

Did you see his defense on Melo? Melo went off for 22 in the first half, then James switched, and Melo went 1-9 the rest of the game.

It also bears mentioning that James plays in the East, and only an idiot would go 100% all the time in the East, where you can put together a shambling corpse of a team and still be a lock for the 2nd round of the playoffs.

[bic50]

I don't think kawhi is top 5, more like top 10.

[Cry Havoc]

melo is a known choker,no surprise

leflop only can defend slow,fat melo now

[Cry Havoc]

Leflop is the most overrated defender ,his defence has never as gd as kobe

Time to retire this troll. You're bad at it.

[silverblackfan]

I've loved watching the climb Kawhi has made up through the NBA ranks. I've liked this kid since day one. Even if back then all I hoped was he could be another Bruce. Needless to say he's already surpassed that and he still is improving. Not since the early days of LBJ has there been a player that I so intently watch on both ends of the court. The biggest thing I hope this new found hype improves is Kawhi's trips to the foul line. There have been many times over his career where he drives to the hole and doesn't get the call when guys like James, Durant, and Harden would have. I think that's part of the reason he settles for jumpers more than he should. Put it this way Kawhi is averaging 22 ppg on 3 FTA. While Harden is averaging 29 ppg on 12 FTA. If Kawhi can get to the line 3-4 more times a game plus move his 3 point percentage up a tic I think he will solidly be a top 5 player.

Kawhi I think is the biggest testament to the coaching of Pop. Yes he had all the physical tools and he had the work ethic and the drive to be great. But it was Pop who molded him into the player he is today. You look at a player like Ben Mclemore in Sac who has all the tools in the world to be the best 2 guard in the league and he is just wasting away in his situation. Kawhi and the Spurs were made for each other.

[Neurosis]

No way can you consider Harden above Kawhi unless you're going only by offense. Kawhi is top2 in the league on D and top10 on offense, no question. Harden might be top3 offensively but he's not even top50 on D.

No way can you consider him above Kawhi at this point.

[HarlemHeat37]

Did you see his defense on Melo? Melo went off for 22 in the first half, then James switched, and Melo went 1-9 the rest of the game.

It also bears mentioning that James plays in the East, and only an idiot would go 100% all the time in the East, where you can put together a shambling corpse of a team and still be a lock for the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Ya, I mentioned his strong defensive start in my previous post..still, though, doubt he can sustain it, at this point, and I'm probably the biggest Lebron fan on SpursTalk(at least according to everybody else)..

[T_L_P]

No way can you consider Harden above Kawhi unless you're going only by offense. Kawhi is top2 in the league on D and top10 on offense, no question. Harden might be top3 offensively but he's not even top50 on D.

No way can you consider him above Kawhi at this point.

In a vacuum Kawhi can be called a top two defender.

And he's not either on offense. There are certainly ten better offensive players out there. And just from this season, you can't even say Kawhi's top 15-20 (despite nice raw PPG numbers).

[100%duncan]

Did you see his defense on Melo? Melo went off for 22 in the first half, then James switched, and Melo went 1-9 the rest of the game.

It also bears mentioning that James plays in the East, and only an idiot would go 100% all the time in the East, where you can put together a shambling corpse of a team and still be a lock for the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Kawhi does it night in night out, lebron doesnt because he cant. Let's face it, he can be elite when it counts but no way you can put Lebron above kawhi in defense right now.

[YGWHI]

Are you sure he's said "top 10"? I've never heard him say that before this season.

He said that several times in the last few years....Before this season, the last time I heard him said it, was on Inside the NBA in 2014.

I can't find the video but some guys on reddit were talking about it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...er_in_the_nba/

[Cry Havoc]

Kawhi does it night in night out, lebron doesnt because he cant. Let's face it, he can be elite when it counts but no way you can put Lebron above kawhi in defense right now.

Did I say that? No. I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I think Kawhi is probably the best wing defender I have seen since at at least LeBron's prime but more than likely, since Pippen. His ability to influence the game with his defense is not matched by anyone else in the league.

I think it would actually be somewhat stupid for LeBron to exert that kind of effort on both sides of the ball in the East, where you get 50 wins just for showing up in the conference.

Kawhi is also 6 years younger than LeBron and has about 10 years less NBA mileage on his body.

[spurraider21]

cane we rename apalisoc_9 to leonard228

[KL2]

In a vacuum Kawhi can be called a top two defender.

And he's not either on offense. There are certainly ten better offensive players out there. And just from this season, you can't even say Kawhi's top 15-20 (despite nice raw PPG numbers).

Like who? 22ppg on 52% shooting, and he's doing it in the West, the Spurs aren't exactly clicking either, they're screwing up the spacing but Leonard is still scoring regardless.