Spurs Game Grades - Game #15 Mavs @ Spurs -- 11/25/15

[ILoveOranges]

Excellent presentation. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort. For the most part, my eyes saw performances that match your grades. But I cannot agree with your assessment of Pop. Carlisle nearly beat Pop on the back end of a BtoB on our home court. I thought Pop failed to force Carlisle's hand at any point in the game, and he failed to respond well to Carlisle's moves. You may love the fact that Pop played Kawhi for 40 minutes, but I was very sorry to see it. And playing an absolutely dead Manu for 28 minutes almost cost us the game. Over-playing Manu like this will kill both him and the Spurs in the long run. And it ain't gonna do Kawhi any good by the playoffs, either. Pop as Thibs earns a D from me.

I think Pop really treated this game like a playoff game, the way he shortened up rotations and made his playmakers play big minutes. I doubt Kawhi will always play 40 minutes and Ginobili 28 during the playoffs, I just think Pop really wanted to win this one and couldn't count on Anderson, Butler to not make mistakes at this point.

[sasaint]

I think Pop really treated this game like a playoff game, the way he shortened up rotations and made his playmakers play big minutes. I doubt Kawhi will always play 40 minutes and Ginobili 28 during the playoffs, I just think Pop really wanted to win this one and couldn't count on Anderson, Butler to not make mistakes at this point.

Then we have big problems if Pop is treating an early season game against a so-so, rebuilt Mavs team as a Playoff Game! How much less reliable than Manu could Anderson and/or Butler have been last night? And when Manu is clearly off and a detriment why play him MORE than his average? And what about Patty? Ray McCallum was supposed to be better than CoJo, yet he might as well be in Austin.

I think Pop was asleep at the wheel last night. Numerous ST posters made the comment in the game thread that the Spurs failed to exploit advantageous mismatches all night. An alarming game.

[TDfan2007]

Appreciate the writeup, man. Really nice job. I'm gonna have to disagree about Kawhi's D though. I thought he got lost quite a bit, and even got backdoored.

As for Mills, this season has been really rough for him defensively. He's been a glaring weak link since the rest of our team has been so solid on that end.

[RD2191]

OP is a got. I appreciate the writeup though.

[Cry Havoc]

Then we have big problems if Pop is treating an early season game against a so-so, rebuilt Mavs team as a Playoff Game! How much less reliable than Manu could Anderson and/or Butler have been last night? And when Manu is clearly off and a detriment why play him MORE than his average? And what about Patty? Ray McCallum was supposed to be better than CoJo, yet he might as well be in Austin.

I think Pop was asleep at the wheel last night. Numerous ST posters made the comment in the game thread that the Spurs failed to exploit advantageous mismatches all night. An alarming game.

Well, Kawhi is 24. Playing him 40 minutes a few times a season isn't bad, and in fact will probably help acclimate him to the playoffs when he's much more likely to go for 38+.

Additionally, we are definitely in trouble if Green AND Manu AND Patty are ice cold from the field in the playoffs. Had they hit ANYTHING (combined 5-28), the game gets out of reach for Dallas in the 3rd quarter, if not the 2nd. That would have eased the pressure and we could have sat Kawhi and Manu much earlier. We had a ton of wide open looks from 3, and they just didn't hit.

Appreciate the writeup, man. Really nice job. I'm gonna have to disagree about Kawhi's D though. I thought he got lost quite a bit, and even got backdoored.

As for Mills, this season has been really rough for him defensively. He's been a glaring weak link since the rest of our team has been so solid on that end.

Maybe true for Kawhi, but overall the starting 5 were so fantastic it was hard to be displeased with the effort. I saw Kawhi playing a lot of team D in this game rather than individual D, which can be good on nights when Parker/Mills can't stay in front of their man. Certainly not his best night on that side of the floor, but I still saw growth there in his knowledge of when to hard commit into the post or out on doubles.

[SAGirl]

Thank you for your grades Cry Havoc. You have a witty and smart writing style and I like your insight on basketball.

Many things I agree with except on Pop. It's a win, but Pop didn't make adjustments when our bench was struggling, and I think he overplayed Manu. Almost 29 minutes in his worst game of the season. Kawhi was sensational in this game and crucial, since the bench play was awful last night (save D.West, who I like and I agree with you, despite the fact he's not a center and is played out of position, he competes. You can't help but like him, he was great in this game).

But the point is we are not playing a full season Kawhi 41 minutes. It will wear him down, with the burden he's carrying already, and these teams were not even full strength. Mavs are well coached, but they are old, have some marginal guys, some rejects, some injured guys, JJ Barea got injured, D. Harris got fouled out. It was a close game that we could have lost.

I definitely didn't think Pop made good adjustments through the game. He could have played Kyle for 5 minutes to reduce Manu or Kawhi's load. Kyle has played well enough recently, to give either guy a breather for a few minutes. Pop could have subbed Ray for a few minutes too since Patty was awful on both ends for long stretches.

Just in general, I thought Pop rode his stars in this game, and thankfully for us it paid off. For the long haul, that makes us vulnerable if one of them is off, injured, resting, in foul trouble, etc. One of our best assets is that we were not a top heavy team. We have the great stars, but distribute the burden enough through the season to win, and at the same time reach the destination fresh and healthy.

Just in general, I think Pop is right around the time of the season when he should be trying to get more out of the younger guys in our bench (before we get to the January tough games and the stretch when Pop starts to get guys ready for the post season, and cuts out the early season experiments).

I thought Danny disappointed on the O end, bc he's not making good decisions when putting the ball on the floor, so when his shot is not falling, offensively he doesn't offer much. But that is a work in progress, and Pop is likely to let him work through this right now to see if he can grow offensively a little bit.

[sasaint]

Cry Havoc, Kawhi may be 24, but he'll be 28 next season playing 40 minutes/game. The point is, if he has to play 40 minutes a game it had better be against OKC, GS, Cleveland - even the Clips - NOT a rebuilt, middle-of-the-pack team like the Mavs. The closer Kawhi is to 30 minutes, the better for the team. It keeps him fresher, and it means that we have other players who can step in and perform. We will not have those players without giving them some time. Hey, we had double digit leads on three occasions, and Patty and Manu were both terrible; give some other guys some burn. Secondly, Pop just failed to make any adjustments to maximize advantages when we had them. I also have to correct your assertion that our starting five were fantastic. Maybe 4 out of 5. By your own grades, Danny was AWOL again.

We don't need to get Kawhi acclimated to the playoffs in November.

[SAGirl]

Excellent presentation. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort. For the most part, my eyes saw performances that match your grades. But I cannot agree with your assessment of Pop. Carlisle nearly beat Pop on the back end of a BtoB on our home court. I thought Pop failed to force Carlisle's hand at any point in the game, and he failed to respond well to Carlisle's moves. You may love the fact that Pop played Kawhi for 40 minutes, but I was very sorry to see it. And playing an absolutely dead Manu for 28 minutes almost cost us the game. Over-playing Manu like this will kill both him and the Spurs in the long run. And it ain't gonna do Kawhi any good by the playoffs, either. Pop as Thibs earns a D from me.

Agree with you sasaint. I would also give Pop a D here (not an F, bc we won, but had Kawhi not made that big 3, and closed this out, it could easily have been an F for Pop last night).

I thought Carlisle with a less talented crew, who by the way, also is old, lacking chemistry, having guys injured, having guys coming in as rejects from other teams, marginal players, guys getting injured in the game (JJ) or fouling out (Harris) did more with less, and yes almost stole this game in our home court.

I do think Carlisle is on par with Pop as a coach. Pop has just had the HoF players (3) and the beast that is Kawhi (possibly a 4th HoF player if he continues on his current trajectory). Carlisle has just Dirk in the back end of his career and a motley crew. lol

[sasaint]

Agree with you sasaint. I would also give Pop a D here (not an F, bc we won, but had Kawhi not made that big 3, and closed this out, it could easily have been an F for Pop last night).

I thought Carlisle with a less talented crew, who by the way, also is old, lacking chemistry, having guys injured, having guys coming in as rejects from other teams, marginal players, guys getting injured in the game (JJ) or fouling out (Harris) did more with less, and yes almost stole this game in our home court.

I do think Carlisle is on par with Pop as a coach. Pop has just had the HoF players (3) and the beast that is Kawhi (possibly a 4th HoF player if he continues on his current trajectory). Carlisle has just Dirk in the back end of his career and a motley crew. lol

Call me a heretic, but I wonder whether Carlisle isn't, in fact, better at this point - exactly for the reasons you cite. Year in and year out Carlisle has Dirk and ?. Yet he has them competing and in the playoffs. By contrast, it is axiomatic that it takes a year (at least) for new players to adjust to Pop's system. (Hopefully this year is the exception!) In the last few years I have sometimes wondered what Carlisle might have accomplished had he been in Pop's position.

[SAGirl]

Call me a heretic, but I wonder whether Carlisle isn't, in fact, better at this point - exactly for the reasons you cite. Year in and year out Carlisle has Dirk and ?. Yet he has them competing and in the playoffs. By contrast, it is axiomatic that it takes a year (at least) for new players to adjust to Pop's system. (Hopefully this year is the exception!) In the last few years I have sometimes wondered what Carlisle might have accomplished had he been in Pop's position.

I will point out too, Carlisle played his guys. We saw his rookie get play time. We saw Powell, a second or third year player with as little experience as our own young guys. We saw Mcgee come in with a lot of energy, about the role you would want from him, a guy Pop would never play. Carlisle does seem to get the best out of everyone and put them in positions to succeed. Pop? Not so much last game. I dont think hes getting the most out of any of the new guys.

In fact, since we are getting sacrilegous here, I don't think the reason guys take a long time to integrate to the Spurs is them necessarily. I think it takes Pop a long time to integrate guys himself. He likes to watch what they do and what not, then figure out what to do. Sometimes it takes him a full season.

Do you think he knows how to use Kyle? He said he would have him play several positions through the season. Answer: He doesn't know. He's going to watch what he does, and see what he comes up with.

Heck, Becky showed me she has coaching chops with that SL roster she took to a championship in something like two weeks. You don't have a full year to figure out what to do with guys in those situations.

I think it is Pop who takes a long time to figure out what to do with guys. He took a long time to figure out how to feature Kawhi, lets be honest.

As for last night, a younger Dirk would have buried us.

[sasaint]

I will point out too, Carlisle played his guys. We saw his rookie get play time. We saw Powell, a second or third year player with as little experience as our own young guys. We saw Mcgee come in with a lot of energy, about the role you would want from him, a guy Pop would never play. Carlisle does seem to get the best out of everyone and put them in positions to succeed. Pop? Not so much last game. I dont think hes getting the most out of any of the new guys.

In fact, since we are getting sacrilegous here, I don't think the reason guys take a long time to integrate to the Spurs is them necessarily. I think it takes Pop a long time to integrate guys himself. He likes to watch what they do and what not, then figure out what to do. Sometimes it takes him a full season.

Do you think he knows how to use Kyle? He said he would have him play several positions through the season. Answer: He doesn't know. He's going to watch what he does, and see what he comes up with.

Heck, Becky showed me she has coaching chops with that SL roster she took to a championship in something like two weeks. You don't have a full year to figure out what to do with guys in those situations.

I think it is Pop who takes a long time to figure out what to do with guys. He took a long time to figure out how to feature Kawhi, lets be honest.

As for last night, a younger Dirk would have buried us.

Well, if I get excommunicated at least I won't be alone!

Is it a trust issue with Pop, or is it his lengthy evaluation process? To be fair, maybe it is a function of our always getting players with unorthodox/unusual skill sets that take more time to evaluate as well as develop. Look at our draft picks. Those guys are ALWAYS tweeners or "flawed" in some way because we are always drafting in the last 4th or 5th spot (at best). Until LMA we never opened up the purse for free agents, so we typically sign reclamation/development projects. Just seems that no matter the avenue, the way we acquire new players doesn't ever result in our getting "ready-made" performers at a specific, typically-defined position - again, excepting LMA and a couple of aging ring-chasers through the years.

[SAGirl]

Well, if I get excommunicated at least I won't be alone!

Is it a trust issue with Pop, or is it his lengthy evaluation process? To be fair, maybe it is a function of our always getting players with unorthodox/unusual skill sets that take more time to evaluate as well as develop. Look at our draft picks. Those guys are ALWAYS tweeners or "flawed" in some way because we are always drafting in the last 4th or 5th spot (at best). Until LMA we never opened up the purse for free agents, so we typically sign reclamation/development projects. Just seems that no matter the avenue, the way we acquire new players doesn't ever result in our getting "ready-made" performers at a specific, typically-defined position - again, excepting LMA and a couple of aging ring-chasers through the years.

You could argue that neither does Carlisle (in terms of getting all the really spectacular potential lottery talent in the draft all these years). In fact, Mavs ignored the draft until recently and their management went a completely different way. I just admire Carlisle ability to really get the most out of whatever ingredients he has, in the middle of lack of continuity and attrition. Pop has not ever done that, since he has like I said the stars, and he has notoriously been slow to integrate guys, or figure out how to use them.

Let's not forget Timmy was a supreme talent that came ready made, Manu was already an accomplished player and something like 25. Tony was very young and might be Pop's best coaching job until Kawhi, and still Tony's game relied on his speed, and he had that god-given talent since he came in. One thing Tony could do, was "get to the hole" as they say.

Still, Pop admits it took him time, a couple years even to let Manu be Manu and to really understand how to get the best out of Manu. They fought a whole lot and Pop attempted to restrain Manu too much. Of the big 3, Manu is the one Pop never got a mold for. That just tells you Manu came ready made. Messina (or Manu's early coaches) probably had more to do with his molding.

Pop also admitted he didn't know how to use Diaw when he came in. We could infer, its in part the reason why Diaw disappeared on us his first or second season here, and went passive or AWOL when we could have used him. It's on Diaw that he is as chilled as he is, but its on the coach to figure out how to squeeze the best of Diaw and Pop did not figure Diaw out until Diaw went to the Euro, owned everyone and their mothers, dethroned Spain, captained Les Bleus and came back with a fire that Pop said: "you know what? You now have to do that for me too!!!!" (Sidenote: I read a story where Pop asked Tony how to use Diaw better, and Tony was the one who told Pop that up until that point they never called post up plays for Boris, and yet Boris is a very good post up player).

Pop has always had the defensive coaching stuff, that is his best. But I daresay he's not the best at figuring out guys offensively or how to integrate them/feature them. I brought up Kawhi, since it took Pop until this season to really feature him and let him shine consistently. He's still growing and evolving and stuff, but it took a long time to get to this level. Look at Paul George in Indiana, there sooner.

The younger guys, possibly the lack of trust stems obviously from the unexpected performance of young players, but also because they are evolving and growing, and unlike the veterans, they are not finished products and you don't yet know what they will do well.

Pop's a winning coach and I admire him intensely, but I do think he's slow to learn how to feature and integrate guys. Lamarcus right now not the exception.

[sasaint]

You could argue that neither does Carlisle (in terms of getting all the really spectacular potential lottery talent in the draft all these years). In fact, Mavs ignored the draft until recently and their management went a completely different way. I just admire Carlisle ability to really get the most out of whatever ingredients he has, in the middle of lack of continuity and attrition. Pop has not ever done that, since he has like I said the stars, and he has notoriously been slow to integrate guys, or figure out how to use them.

Let's not forget Timmy was a supreme talent that came ready made, Manu was already an accomplished player and something like 25. Tony was very young and might be Pop's best coaching job until Kawhi, and still Tony's game relied on his speed, and he had that god-given talent since he came in. One thing Tony could do, was "get to the hole" as they say.

Still, Pop admits it took him time, a couple years even to let Manu be Manu and to really understand how to get the best out of Manu. They fought a whole lot and Pop attempted to restrain Manu too much. Of the big 3, Manu is the one Pop never got a mold for. That just tells you Manu came ready made. Messina (or Manu's early coaches) probably had more to do with his molding.

Pop also admitted he didn't know how to use Diaw when he came in. We could infer, its in part the reason why Diaw disappeared on us his first or second season here, and went passive or AWOL when we could have used him. It's on Diaw that he is as chilled as he is, but its on the coach to figure out how to squeeze the best of Diaw and Pop did not figure Diaw out until Diaw went to the Euro, owned everyone and their mothers, dethroned Spain, captained Les Bleus and came back with a fire that Pop said: "you know what? You now have to do that for me too!!!!" (Sidenote: I read a story where Pop asked Tony how to use Diaw better, and Tony was the one who told Pop that up until that point they never called post up plays for Boris, and yet Boris is a very good post up player).

Pop has always had the defensive coaching stuff, that is his best. But I daresay he's not the best at figuring out guys offensively or how to integrate them/feature them. I brought up Kawhi, since it took Pop until this season to really feature him and let him shine consistently. He's still growing and evolving and stuff, but it took a long time to get to this level. Look at Paul George in Indiana, there sooner.

The younger guys, possibly the lack of trust stems obviously from the unexpected performance of young players, but also because they are evolving and growing, and unlike the veterans, they are not finished products and you don't yet know what they will do well.

Pop's a winning coach and I admire him intensely, but I do think he's slow to learn how to feature and integrate guys. Lamarcus right now not the exception.

Very good takes. True, the Mavs have placed even less emphasis on the draft than the Spurs. But their approach to free agency has been different. Cuban has not been averse to paying pretty good money for free agents. Dallas has always been a more glamorous destination for FAs, but the Mavs have also been willing to sign guys without the focus on locker room presence that typifies the Spurs' approach. Can't imagine that PATFO would ever consider signing Monta Ellis, for example. Although signing Monta turned out to not be a great long-term move, it is another tribute to Carlisle that he got as much out of the guy as he did before things kind of went south. So, being willing to open the purse for FAs while overlooking some personality/character issues has enabled the Mavs to reload with better free agents, on average, but they haven't won a ring with that approach. I'm not really trying to make a point, just kind of chatting instead of napping after turkey dinner.

I have never heard that anecdote about Tony's giving Pop a pointer on Boris. Thanks.

[SAGirl]

Very good takes. True, the Mavs have placed even less emphasis on the draft than the Spurs. But their approach to free agency has been different. Cuban has not been averse to paying pretty good money for free agents. Dallas has always been a more glamorous destination for FAs, but the Mavs have also been willing to sign guys without the focus on locker room presence that typifies the Spurs' approach. Can't imagine that PATFO would ever consider signing Monta Ellis, for example. Although signing Monta turned out to not be a great long-term move, it is another tribute to Carlisle that he got as much out of the guy as he did before things kind of went south. So, being willing to open the purse for FAs while overlooking some personality/character issues has enabled the Mavs to reload with better free agents, on average, but they haven't won a ring with that approach. I'm not really trying to make a point, just kind of chatting instead of napping after turkey dinner.

I have never heard that anecdote about Tony's giving Pop a pointer on Boris. Thanks.

No problem. lol
That is just my general impression of Pop. Coaches that are able to integrate guys midseason or what not (Rockets did that last season for example with a degree of success) always surprise me bc Pop is the other way.

You can't argue with Pop because of his results, but as we started this conversation, he's always had the talent that allowed him to bring guys along slowly, and the continuity. There are more Pop anecdotes, Tiago Splitter is another one. Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus. Still we are winning on our defense.

It's been a long sidetrack here, but its interesting to chat about it, because we always admire the coach, but sometimes he does have his quirks, and not using all of his bench, mostly because it is new is a bad quirk. We could have uncovered gems in our bench that won't be uncovered until some critical point in the season or next season.

[TrainOfThought5]

Although Kawhi is capable of wreaking havoc on D, this was not the only game this season when his effort seemed spotty, a little lackadaisical at times. On the other hand his down rotation and steal of a pass intended for Zaza in the lane when the Mavs were making a run in the 4th was a big moment. I think it is simply a matter of energy. The guy has a certain amount of it. In past years he expended most of it on the defensive end. But now that we rely on him to be a big scorer, he expends more on the offensive end and simply doesn't have it to expend on D at the same level he has in the past. Plus, his minutes are up significantly.

He played 40 minutes and carried the offensive load all game including a clutch steal and dagger 3 down the stretch.

What more do you want from him? Serious question.

[sasaint]

No problem. lol
That is just my general impression of Pop. Coaches that are able to integrate guys midseason or what not (Rockets did that last season for example with a degree of success) always surprise me bc Pop is the other way.

You can't argue with Pop because of his results, but as we started this conversation, he's always had the talent that allowed him to bring guys along slowly, and the continuity. There are more Pop anecdotes, Tiago Splitter is another one. Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus. Still we are winning on our defense.

It's been a long sidetrack here, but its interesting to chat about it, because we always admire the coach, but sometimes he does have his quirks, and not using all of his bench, mostly because it is new is a bad quirk. We could have uncovered gems in our bench that won't be uncovered until some critical point in the season or next season.

Heck, the Rockets integrated JSmoove and Brewer seamlessly. I was amazed. (Brewer was a guy that I wanted us to get when he came out of Florida.) I am just as amazed at their collapse this year.

Pop definitely has his quirks, and that has cost us some through the years, but overall, as you say, there's no real arguing with his record for success. Besides I like rooting for curmudgeons!

We have drafted and signed a whole bunch of guys that we have subsequently let go who have had pretty long, if not overly successful careers. Beno Udrih, Ian Mahinmi, James Anderson, Cojo, Jamychal Green (?) have been okay for journeymen, but we haven't really missed much. So, it's not like Pop fails to evaluate and develop, but it does seem to take him longer. I just wish he could expedite his process, especially this season. The best ever potential Spur that we let get away was Scola. I do wish we had never given him to the Rockets.

[sasaint]

He played 40 minutes and carried the offensive load all game including a clutch steal and dagger 3 down the stretch.

What more do you want from him? Serious question.

My comments were really limited to his defense. He didn't have the intensity he had last year when he dominated games as a defender like few players in the history of the league. By comparison to those lofty standards, a game that doesn't feature some outstanding steal and dunk or some such seems pretty ordinary. His overall game places him in the top five players on the league to my eyes.

Also, I do not want him having to play 40 minutes for the Spurs to beat the Mavs.

[skulls138]

No problem. lol
That is just my general impression of Pop. Coaches that are able to integrate guys midseason or what not (Rockets did that last season for example with a degree of success) always surprise me bc Pop is the other way.

You can't argue with Pop because of his results, but as we started this conversation, he's always had the talent that allowed him to bring guys along slowly, and the continuity. There are more Pop anecdotes, Tiago Splitter is another one. Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus. Still we are winning on our defense.

It's been a long sidetrack here, but its interesting to chat about it, because we always admire the coach, but sometimes he does have his quirks, and not using all of his bench, mostly because it is new is a bad quirk. We could have uncovered gems in our bench that won't be uncovered until some critical point in the season or next season.

Its not a bad quirk. The new guys have to get indoctrinated for a year in practice to learn the Spurs way. Also its a form of loyalty and a test of patience. Pops is not going to mess up an already good team with some new guy.

[skulls138]

My comments were really limited to his defense. He didn't have the intensity he had last year when he dominated games as a defender like few players in the history of the league. By comparison to those lofty standards, a game that doesn't feature some outstanding steal and dunk or some such seems pretty ordinary. His overall game places him in the top five players on the league to my eyes.

Also, I do not want him having to play 40 minutes for the Spurs to beat the Mavs.

Its absurd to look at the closeness of the score in evaluating the Spurs. For one thing its the Mavs and every rivalry game is going to be close no matter what the talent level is, no matter what the sport. But also to quote the football saying, "any given sunday" meaning theres always a chance a good team could lose to a bad team because there all professional.

[YGWHI]

Thanks for the grades!

Well, Kawhi is 24. Playing him 40 minutes a few times a season isn't bad, and in fact will probably help acclimate him to the playoffs when he's much more likely to go for 38+.

Just like any other player of his age in the league, Kawhi is averaging 34 mpg.

The Spurs weren't in an ideal position in the first games of this season. Acclimating LMA/West to the system, losing several key role players, especially a shooter like Marco, Danny/Boris struggling....Kawhi's playing time seems justified after all.

I saw Kawhi playing a lot of team D in this game rather than individual D, which can be good on nights when Parker/Mills can't stay in front of their man.

Agree. Also, the most overlooked defense by fans here...

[YGWHI]

Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus.

In LMA's case, just in the first 3-4 games of the season. He led the team in per-minute attempts in the last games.

Against Dallas, he took more shots playing 6 minutes less than Kawhi who was the 2nd & 3rd FGA per minute in those games.

[Cry Havoc]

Thank you for your grades Cry Havoc. You have a witty and smart writing style and I like your insight on basketball.

Many things I agree with except on Pop. It's a win, but Pop didn't make adjustments when our bench was struggling, and I think he overplayed Manu. Almost 29 minutes in his worst game of the season. Kawhi was sensational in this game and crucial, since the bench play was awful last night (save D.West, who I like and I agree with you, despite the fact he's not a center and is played out of position, he competes. You can't help but like him, he was great in this game).

But the point is we are not playing a full season Kawhi 41 minutes. It will wear him down, with the burden he's carrying already, and these teams were not even full strength. Mavs are well coached, but they are old, have some marginal guys, some rejects, some injured guys, JJ Barea got injured, D. Harris got fouled out. It was a close game that we could have lost.

I definitely didn't think Pop made good adjustments through the game. He could have played Kyle for 5 minutes to reduce Manu or Kawhi's load. Kyle has played well enough recently, to give either guy a breather for a few minutes. Pop could have subbed Ray for a few minutes too since Patty was awful on both ends for long stretches.

Just in general, I thought Pop rode his stars in this game, and thankfully for us it paid off. For the long haul, that makes us vulnerable if one of them is off, injured, resting, in foul trouble, etc. One of our best assets is that we were not a top heavy team. We have the great stars, but distribute the burden enough through the season to win, and at the same time reach the destination fresh and healthy.

Just in general, I think Pop is right around the time of the season when he should be trying to get more out of the younger guys in our bench (before we get to the January tough games and the stretch when Pop starts to get guys ready for the post season, and cuts out the early season experiments).

I thought Danny disappointed on the O end, bc he's not making good decisions when putting the ball on the floor, so when his shot is not falling, offensively he doesn't offer much. But that is a work in progress, and Pop is likely to let him work through this right now to see if he can grow offensively a little bit.

I think the fact that Pop played Manu so much is indicative of the respect he has for Carlisle. They are old generals going to war against each other, and they both know a lot of the tricks. I think putting Anderson in against a Rick Carlisle defense (especially on a night when almost everyone is cold) would result in a loss. The Mavs would have attacked Kyle whenever he had the ball. I don't think playing Manu for 28 minutes once in a while will hurt him, it was an admission of trust by Pop that Manu can right the ship and contribute in other ways even when his shot isn't falling.

I also think the criticism of Pop is somewhat unwarranted. We had players wide open from 3 for a lot of the game. If Green even goes 4-10 from deep, if Manu hits a couple more, or if Patty doesn't go 1-7 from the field, that game breaks open in the 2nd when we're up double digits and we probably don't look back. I don't see how you can criticize Pop for players missing open looks -- which is why he had to ride our starters so much.

Cry Havoc, Kawhi may be 24, but he'll be 28 next season playing 40 minutes/game. The point is, if he has to play 40 minutes a game it had better be against OKC, GS, Cleveland - even the Clips - NOT a rebuilt, middle-of-the-pack team like the Mavs. The closer Kawhi is to 30 minutes, the better for the team. It keeps him fresher, and it means that we have other players who can step in and perform. We will not have those players without giving them some time. Hey, we had double digit leads on three occasions, and Patty and Manu were both terrible; give some other guys some burn. Secondly, Pop just failed to make any adjustments to maximize advantages when we had them. I also have to correct your assertion that our starting five were fantastic. Maybe 4 out of 5. By your own grades, Danny was AWOL again.

We don't need to get Kawhi acclimated to the playoffs in November.

He's playing 34 minutes a game this year. It absolutely does not hurt a guy who doesn't even qualify for cheaper car insurance to run out there for an extra 6 minutes. If anything, Kawhi needs sporadic doses of that environment from time to time, so he knows how to play in rhythm for extended minutes. It's baffling that you think Pop is suddenly going to lean on Kawhi like this in every game, and I think you seem to be suggesting that he put hard minute caps on all of our players, which is just lunacy when it can mean 5-6 games at the end of the season. We don't want to be the 7 seed in the West again, it's not a good setup to winning a le.

You could argue that neither does Carlisle (in terms of getting all the really spectacular potential lottery talent in the draft all these years). In fact, Mavs ignored the draft until recently and their management went a completely different way. I just admire Carlisle ability to really get the most out of whatever ingredients he has, in the middle of lack of continuity and attrition. Pop has not ever done that, since he has like I said the stars, and he has notoriously been slow to integrate guys, or figure out how to use them.

Let's not forget Timmy was a supreme talent that came ready made, Manu was already an accomplished player and something like 25. Tony was very young and might be Pop's best coaching job until Kawhi, and still Tony's game relied on his speed, and he had that god-given talent since he came in. One thing Tony could do, was "get to the hole" as they say.

Still, Pop admits it took him time, a couple years even to let Manu be Manu and to really understand how to get the best out of Manu. They fought a whole lot and Pop attempted to restrain Manu too much. Of the big 3, Manu is the one Pop never got a mold for. That just tells you Manu came ready made. Messina (or Manu's early coaches) probably had more to do with his molding.

Pop also admitted he didn't know how to use Diaw when he came in. We could infer, its in part the reason why Diaw disappeared on us his first or second season here, and went passive or AWOL when we could have used him. It's on Diaw that he is as chilled as he is, but its on the coach to figure out how to squeeze the best of Diaw and Pop did not figure Diaw out until Diaw went to the Euro, owned everyone and their mothers, dethroned Spain, captained Les Bleus and came back with a fire that Pop said: "you know what? You now have to do that for me too!!!!" (Sidenote: I read a story where Pop asked Tony how to use Diaw better, and Tony was the one who told Pop that up until that point they never called post up plays for Boris, and yet Boris is a very good post up player).

Pop has always had the defensive coaching stuff, that is his best. But I daresay he's not the best at figuring out guys offensively or how to integrate them/feature them. I brought up Kawhi, since it took Pop until this season to really feature him and let him shine consistently. He's still growing and evolving and stuff, but it took a long time to get to this level. Look at Paul George in Indiana, there sooner.

The younger guys, possibly the lack of trust stems obviously from the unexpected performance of young players, but also because they are evolving and growing, and unlike the veterans, they are not finished products and you don't yet know what they will do well.

Pop's a winning coach and I admire him intensely, but I do think he's slow to learn how to feature and integrate guys. Lamarcus right now not the exception.

It's really mind-boggling how you guys are so willing to minimize the career of Pop, especially given the fact that you just made your displeasure known with him for playing a player for 40 minutes, when Pop is basically THE guy in the NBA who created a new standard of player preservation that had led Duncan (and now Manu) to extend their careers beyond what was thought possible. Popovich in his time in the NBA has done nothing short of:
1) author one of the greatest defensive teams in history for almost two decades now, with just a couple of less than stellar years,
2) introduce international players into the roster in a way that had previously thought to be idiotic, but is now copied by literally every organization in the League,
3) completely shift the at udes about player health and longevity to a more career focused outlook, and
4) engineer one of the most impressive complete team realignments the NBA has ever seen when he transitioned the Spurs from a measured defensive juggernaut to a pace and space offense that is not only responsible for the last two NBA les, but also two of the greatest teams ever to set foot on the hardwood.

Getting a lot out of mid-tier talent does not suddenly make you the greatest coach in the NBA, and it's not the same as building le teams. Larry Brown was just as good, if not better than Rick at that, and Brown rarely if ever had a guy like Dirk on his team to continually build and rebuild around. Carlisle is a great coach, make no mistake, but you guys act like the Mavs have been devoid of talent all these years. They have the greatest shooting big of all-time and until the Spurs went all in and got LMA this past season, the Mavs had soundly beaten the Spurs in free agency for the past decade. Did you forget that the Mavs were a 90+ million dollar team recently, which was good for the top 3 in the NBA for several seasons? This is revisionist history at it's finest. This is the team that's paying Chandler Parsons $30,000,000 over the next two seasons. It would be incredibly easy to stick the Mavs under a microscope for every single decision they make and then in turn rip apart Carlisle's career for all the mistakes he's made. Carlisle ignored the draft because he had the good fortune (pun intended) of the Dallas metro area backing him, so he could afford to go out and just buy up or trade for expensive players. Pop has historically never had that luxury.

Also, taking credit away from Pop for taking some time to get the most out of a guy who wouldn't even get off the bench for the worst team in the NBA. Really? That's a pretty huge reach, and perhaps has more of a place in a political campaign. There are 29 other teams that had a chance to turn Boris Diaw into the asset he's been for us -- Carlisle's Mavs included -- and no one did. You can't take credit away from Pop for the resurrection of Boris's career.

And of course this is conveniently ignoring the fact that Pop is also the pres for the Spurs, further cementing some of the personnel decisions the Spurs have made over the years squarely in Pop's corner. The fact that the Spurs have been so dominant while being a less attractive FA destination than Dallas is just the cherry on top. It looks like the Spurs are so talented precisely because Pop makes average players look great. The fact that you just ranted about Pop's accomplishments for so long and didn't even think to mention the job we've done with Danny Green is pretty telling. He was on his way out of the NBA -- Pop turned him into a $15,000,000 player.

[weeks]

Cry havoc with the hop-on-pop goods. Dude is arrogant, taciturn, stubborn, and pig-headed, and he drives me up a fkn wall every other game - but damn if I want anyone else running this team .We're sick with good fortune in San An .

[SAGirl]

I also think the criticism of Pop is somewhat unwarranted. We had players wide open from 3 for a lot of the game. If Green even goes 4-10 from deep, if Manu hits a couple more, or if Patty doesn't go 1-7 from the field, that game breaks open in the 2nd when we're up double digits and we probably don't look back. I don't see how you can criticize Pop for players missing open looks -- which is why he had to ride our starters so much.

I very much respect your dissenting opinion. You and I just have different views of the same game. I expected more adjustments to what Pop did, but we won the game and what Pop did was enough. It was a close one though against an injured, old, less talented team, that was on the road in a B2B, and had the result been different (and it could have gone either way) you would have to rethink whether Manu 29 minutes was wise, and whether Pop should not have given Kyle and Ray a run, since the bench struggled mightily. They are both young at this point but capable of quality play in a few minutes. Ray played starter minutes with the Kings for a while, and Kyle played starter minutes against a similar (arguable better than this) Mavs team during December 2014, with a horribly devastated Spurs team that only played 8 players that game. Your headline star might have been Cojo and Bobo that game. Kyle might be able to handle more than you think. Need I remind you, Kyle gave us quality minutes against the Suns and Grizzlies just a few nights ago. We are not talking about his play against the Sixers. You just don't know unless you give guys a chance. They might have been better than a struggling Patty/Manu for a few minutes.

Luckily we do have the stars and Kawhi at a young age to actually right the ship in crunch time. Very much a superstar won game.

My criticism of Pop is not out of the realm of some of the criticism directed at players on here. He does have his quirks and has had his coaching blunders. He says he doesn't know it all, and actually likes assistants that challenge his opinions. I still love the coach and admire him. Sometimes he does things that are headsratching, but he will live with the consequences. Here Pop was living and dying with the stars, and it was the right thing for this game I guess, but it easily could have gone the other way. Had he subbed in Kyle/Ray and they sucked some might have said that cost us the game. Pop always does things for a reason. Turns out he was going to rest Manu, so he could afford Manu 29 minutes.

[sasaint]

Cry Havoc I cannot speak for SAGirl but I don't believe either one of us intends to "minimize" the career of one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. I believe we are both huge admirers of Pop. Nor was it our intent to review/evaluate his entire career. You have done a very admirable job of stating many of the highlights, including many that you rightly point out are historic. I (and SAGirl) took issue with your grade for Pop in a single game, and we were discussing some specific episodes in his career.

As for Kawhi, you are right that an occasional 40-minute game isn't going to kill the guy. But those games are more than merely occasional if he plays them against every middle-tier team in the league. The same for Manu. The real bottom line is simply this: I thought we had a roster, top-to-bottom, that inspired more confidence in Pop than he showed against the Mavs. The fact that he felt the need to ride Kawhi and, more especially Manu when his tank was clearly empty, is what causes the concern. The reliance upon those two (and I could add Patty, even though he didn't play an inordinate number of minutes) is only a symptom. It is the underlying malady that concerns me the most. If Danny and Patty get it together, the malady is not as dire. But if they don't, and Pop cannot/refuses to use guys behind them, then the malady seems terminal.

Number two seed seems pretty critical to our championship chances this year. But getting a number two seed with a team that has spent itself because of very short rotations doesn't make our championship chances very good, either. I think we all hope that Danny and Patty break out of their doldrums, and additionally that Kyle and/or Ray and/or Simmons reaches a point where Pop can rely on them for some good minutes.