OT: Is larry bird the most overrated all time great of all time?

[Spurtacular]

adam morrison/jimmer fredette caliber player in your top 15 all time

Whom do you speak of?

[Brazil]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be in' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man, Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

/ thread

[SpursFan86]

Never knew evolution happened so rapidly...humans are practically an entire different species compared to 30 years ago

[UZER]

It's unfair to compare eras when that's all the players knew at that time. You have to adjust/ inflate their skill set based having access to everything available today. It's like saying today's kid gamers are far superior to 70s/80s kid gamers. Of course they are, but the kids from the 80s where ever only allowed to max out at 2 button controller. Nowadays, the first controller put in a kids hands has a minimum 10 buttons.

The only difference from humans born 500 years ago and today are the resources available in the eras they grew up in.

[baseline bum]

I just can't imagine anyone who ever actually watched Bird play could all over him like this. He was like taking Paul Pierce and adding Boris Diaw's interior passing.

[apalisoc_9]

It's unfair to compare eras when that's all the players knew at that time. You have to adjust/ inflate their skill set based having access to everything available today. It's like saying today's kid gamers are far superior to 70s/80s kid gamers. Of course they are, but the kids from the 80s where ever only allowed to max out at 2 button controller. Nowadays, the first controller put in a kids hands has a minimum 10 buttons.

The only difference from humans born 500 years ago and today are the resources available in the eras they grew up in.

I think this is a fair take. In a vacuum though Bird is probably just as good as josh mcroberts. The guys that cant accept this is delusional

[Trill Clinton]

hilarious thread, op

[BD24]

This show of a thread is still going on?

[pgardn]

KL2, you ever going to send me that referal brah? I know you told me three days ago work you work for a great Organization office..would help me in my dream of doing something related to the NBA.

Help a young fella out...I promised i wont disclose organization so help a out man

The definition of severe hallucinations ^

[pgardn]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be in' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

This is actually very estute.

There are bio mechanical limits to what the human body can do. Olympic records,in the purest physical events, have leveled off. And the inability to realize the difference from a prime 60s player, and a prime 80s player (in which color barriers were breaking down) is noted. This self proclaimed basketball genius has not an ounce of historical perspective.

Apoplectic thinks we have evolved into some sort of large chimp. Too many superhero video games. "That dude has an 85 rating on x-box" or whatever. Use these lines in the interview for NBA scout...

Tell us how it works out Apo. And be sure to reference this site for your future employment in the NBA. We can help point out some of the classic posts demonstrating psychosis.

[Killakobe81]

I just can't imagine anyone who ever actually watched Bird play could all over him like this. He was like taking Paul Pierce and adding Boris Diaw's interior passing.

Bird was great still would be great and i loved the 80s but the reality is for those saying Durant is ty on Defense ... Bird would have way more trouble defending any high level SF . Kiwi for example is no where close to Bird on offense and his IQ although good is nowhere close to Bird. But over a 7 game series ill take kiwi because i truly believe his size and athleticism would cause more problems both ways ...(if matched up with Bird)
Now if if you asked me which player would i choose to add to the this years Dubs to make them unstoppable i take Bird. Because if he is playing in Harrison Barnes spot Dubs may never lose ...Bird would be murder on a team like that ...so its not cut and dry these comparisons. But Bird is the 2nd best SF still ...Kiwi is not even top 3 yet. He is arguablu only third in the league right now.

[baseline bum]

Bird was great still would be great and i loved the 80s but the reality is gor those saying Durant is ty on Defense ... Bird would have way more trouble defending any high level SF . Kiwi for example is no where close to Bird on offense and his IQ alrhough good is nowhere close to Bird. But over a 7 game series ill take kiwi because i truly believe his size and athleticism would cause more problems both ways ...(if matched up with Bird)
Now if if you asked me which player would i choose to add to the this years Dubs to make them unstoppable i take Bird. Because if he is playing in Harrison Barnes spot Dubs may never lose ...Bird would be murder on a team like that ...so its not cut and dry these comparisons. But Bird is the 2nd best SF still ...Kiwi is not even top 3 yet. He is arguablu only third in the league right now.

Bird was no doubt a ty defender, but look how many MVPs of late have been garbage on that end: Durant, Nowitzki, Kobe, Nash, Iverson are all crap defenders. That's why you have role players on teams.

[Cry Havoc]

Bird was great still would be great and i loved the 80s but the reality is gor those saying Durant is ty on Defense ... Bird would have way more trouble defending any high level SF . Kiwi for example is no where close to Bird on offense and his IQ alrhough good is nowhere close to Bird. But over a 7 game series ill take kiwi because i truly believe his size and athleticism would cause more problems both ways ...(if matched up with Bird)
Now if if you asked me which player would i choose to add to the this years Dubs to make them unstoppable i take Bird. Because if he is playing in Harrison Barnes spot Dubs may never lose ...Bird would be murder on a team like that ...so its not cut and dry these comparisons. But Bird is the 2nd best SF still ...Kiwi is not even top 3 yet.

Durant is obviously more athletic than Bird. However, there's no way you can conclusively say that Bird would struggle more than KD does today on defense. Bruce Bowen was not a freak by NBA standards and was one of the best defenders in the league. A hobbled Tim Duncan is one of the best defenders in the league this year.

Durant was probably the equal of Bird on offense if you only consider shooting. However, Bird's complete feel for the game, his mastery and background of knowledge, as well as his instincts for where he needed to be in each play were head and shoulders above Durant. It's obviously difficult to rate "feel", but it's easy to see with the way Bird passed and handled the ball when not creating his own shot that he was far more well-rounded than Durant, who doesn't seem to fit in as well if he's not scoring. Bird would be a monster on any team today that could use his range and his passing ability to punish aggressive defenses.

Also, taking Kawhi over Bird is something that would have likely been considered lunacy last year, and only because of his recent explosion on offense does it make sense that Kawhi could potentially hold his own -- but in that respect Kawhi is on the cusp of becoming a truly rare player -- the guy who can score 25+ points per game while being a top 3 defender (if not outright, the very best) in the League. How many players have been capable of that in NBA history? Almost any other season and Kawhi would be a very real MVP candidate.

[TDfan2007]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be in' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

This farce of a thread should have ended with this post. Great points all around. Unfortunately, I think OP is just making a click-bait thread to troll ST. Doubt OP actually believes what he's saying...

[baseline bum]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be in' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

Sad people forget how great Bird was, and same with Magic. Was it Buss that Kareem went to and complained about Magic's baseball passes? And then Buss told Kareem you better catch the ing ball.

Still never seen as devastating a passer on the break as Magic. Damn those baseball passes he'd make a couple of times a game were incredible, no one ever picked those off and they were a guaranteed two every time.

[TDfan2007]

Pretty much. Can you google and post the dunk ryan kelly made two weeks ago? Im on my phone...dude.would be a legit superstar in the 70s.

is this another one of those "Harlem told me to make it" threads meant to unite ST against a ludicrously contrarian take?

You should stick to regurgitating Lowe's Grantland takes, tbh...

[KL2]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league Dirk is still going strong, as well.

You haven't proved anything other than referring to mostly olympic sports that primarily require technique. You've also blatantly ignored how much bigger athletes have gotten in relation to their skill sets like the 100m record being owned by a 6'5 200lb man. If you were over 230-240+ in the NBA you were a stiff, if you have evidence proving other wise provide it. 270lb SF's like Lebron didn't exist, 6'11 270lb jump shooters like Aldridge didn't exist, 280lb PF's like Diaw that could play PG didn't exist, again, provide your evidence. The amount of ball handlers in this league that are 230+ is crazy.


You completely ignored how much bigger, faster, stronger athletes in the NFL have gotten. To say there aren't better athletes in the NBA is to say there aren't better athletes in the NFL because they literally both benefited from the same types of workouts, nutrition, etc. why are you ignoring that fact?

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Bigs today would be able to take a lot of those guys out on the perimeter and break them down with ball handling or by getting wide open jumpers, in the 80's if you got blown by you could hand check and easily slow them down. It's MUCH harder to defend ball handlers when you cannot hand check, you actually need lateral speed in today's league.

245lb big men could not do this in the 80's, this 20 year old Willie Cauley-Stein is as big as Patrick Ewing but moves like a guard on defense:




Do you see how mobile bigs are? The balance it takes, the mobility, the explosiveness? Players this big and this agile did not exist back then. How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.


Tim Duncan can't guard mobile 4's, any time you get him out on the perimeter he's a huge liability. Duncan has also extended his career by proper nutrition, proper exercise, and the medical technology we have today. If he was playing in the 80's his knees would've most likely been shot after 10 years, for sure he would not have been playing at this level. This is just another example why the NBA is better, guys are taking better care of their bodies, it leads to longer careers.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be in' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

PGs are far superior it's not close with their ball handling skills
SG's are becoming combo guards, shorter, but heavier, more compact and explosive versions which gives the illusion they weigh the same as most 80's-90's guards.
SF's are ing huge, most guys are over 230+ and are very athletic, 230+ was the size of most bigs back then.
Bigs are becoming more perimeter oriented and are much better ball handlers/shooters, their mobility has increased significantly throughout the years.


Btw, Pippen never had to guard the players Leonard's guarding these days. Leonard also has 20lbs of muscle on him too lol, Pippen would probably get torn up against today's perimeter players, he couldn't even guard a rookie Iverson who tore Jordan's 55 win bulls team up.

[apalisoc_9]

You haven't proved anything other than referring to mostly olympic sports that primarily require technique. You've also blatantly ignored how much bigger athletes have gotten in relation to their skill sets like the 100m record being owned by a 6'5 200lb man. If you were over 230-240+ in the NBA you were a stiff, if you have evidence proving other wise provide it. 270lb SF's like Lebron didn't exist, 6'11 270lb jump shooters like Aldridge didn't exist, 280lb PF's like Diaw that could play PG didn't exist, again, provide your evidence. The amount of ball handlers in this league that are 230+ is crazy.


You completely ignored how much bigger, faster, stronger athletes in the NFL have gotten. To say there aren't better athletes in the NBA is to say there aren't better athletes in the NFL because they literally both benefited from the same types of workouts, nutrition, etc. why are you ignoring that fact?





Bigs today would be able to take a lot of those guys out on the perimeter and break them down with ball handling or by getting wide open jumpers, in the 80's if you got blown by you could hand check and easily slow them down. It's MUCH harder to defend ball handlers when you cannot hand check, you actually need lateral speed in today's league.

245lb big men could not do this in the 80's, this 20 year old Willie Cauley-Stein is as big as Patrick Ewing but moves like a guard on defense:




Do you see how mobile bigs are? The balance it takes, the mobility, the explosiveness? Players this big and this agile did not exist back then. How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.


Tim Duncan can't guard mobile 4's, any time you get him out on the perimeter he's a huge liability. Duncan has also extended his career by proper nutrition, proper exercise, and the medical technology we have today. If he was playing in the 80's his knees would've most likely been shot after 10 years, for sure he would not have been playing at this level. This is just another example why the NBA is better, guys are taking better care of their bodies, it leads to longer careers.




PGs are far superior it's not close with their ball handling skills
SG's are becoming combo guards, shorter, but heavier, more compact and explosive versions which gives the illusion they weigh the same as most 80's-90's guards.
SF's are ing huge, most guys are over 230+ and are very athletic, 230+ was the size of most bigs back then.
Bigs are becoming more perimeter oriented and are much better ball handlers/shooters, their mobility has increased significantly throughout the years.


Btw, Pippen never had to guard the players Leonard's guarding these days. Leonard also has 20lbs of muscle on him too lol, Pippen would probably get torn up against today's perimeter players, he couldn't even guard a rookie Iverson who tore Jordan's 55 win bulls team up.

RIP midnightpulp

[lefty]

midnightpulp ting on this thread

[Spurtacular]

Bird was no doubt a ty defender

As a one v one perimeter defender, Bird was nothing special. But he did everything else really well.

[Spurtacular]

is this another one of those "Harlem told me to make it" threads meant to unite ST against a ludicrously contrarian take?

Haha. Harlem and Ap are in league.

[Spurtacular]

People talking about this and that 3 of today supposedly burning Bird are forgetting that Bird would probably play mostly 4 in today's NBA. And he would torch today's 4's on the perimeter and today's 3's in the post.

[Cry Havoc]

Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.

[Mr Bones]

So do you guys also say Jesse Owens is a terrible athlete because his times today wouldn't win college track meets?

[pgardn]

"How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer. "



So...

How long has it been since you have seen a deer?

For s sake.