Lakers: Kevin Pelton: Why Kobe Bryant is NOT a top-10 all-time player

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Do you have Bill Russell as the GOAT?

No, absolutely not, neither do I have Robert Horry as the 2nd GOAT. But in the case of Lebron, he has failed far too many times to get it done as Alpha, he has gotten embarrassed in 3 Finals appearances and looked good in one defeat. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals and didnt benefit from playing in the East. You have to use common sense when applying the ring count. Ring count obviously is very important, its not the end all though. But you cant put a 2 ring LeBron ahead of a 5 ring Kobe, thats ing stupid.

[whitemamba]

the media can say what ever, because its full of salty stat loving fat necks. EVery great will comeout and say kobe is top 10, and when it starts im going to serve it to you guys raw.

[Killakobe81]

But the ulative WS stat could punish players who had the bad luck of being on bad teams for a few years of their career and/or past players who played when only 8 teams made the playoffs (like in the 80's).

The best thing to do with advanced stats is to take all them into consideration and rank appropriately. Admittedly, Kobe is a tough, tough rank, kind of like the inverse of Chris Paul (who dominates every advanced stat category known but has never been past the 2nd round). Real talk, you can put Kobe at 10 or 30 and both could probably be justified. I think he's in that 2nd tier with KG, Barkley, Dirk, Dr. J, etc. I don't see how that's an insult?

I dont see it as an insult I just wouldnt put no ring losers like Malone or CP3 that high. When you talking the best of the best Kobe as the bottom of the top 10 of modern players or top 15 all-time is fine. I dont even argue his legacy. you notice if you go back all I did was LOL at Cp3 over him and Bird and Malone's place and how this article has a list where duncan is ranked lower than he should be ...

[Spurs 4 The Win]

of course they do. Only on spurstalk do they diminish them this much ...

BTW in the playoff win shares Horry cracks the top 25 (just behind Gino and Hondo) ahead of ... Dr. J, David Robinson and KG ...
On 2nd thought I put dirk as my #2 PF ...
One more interesting note Hakeem is only 15th on the playoff list ... not saying I agree just interesting.

Yeah it is like some of these idiots have taken the extreme on applying advanced stats, throwing common sense to the wind. Rings matter, period, thats how the greats are defined.

[baseline bum]

Off the top of my head, I'd put Kobe at #10 alltime, though you could make an argument up to #7. Hated leaving Moses out of the top 10, but I'd easily pick any of these guys over him.

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. LeBron James
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

[Killakobe81]

But the ulative WS stat could punish players who had the bad luck of being on bad teams for a few years of their career and/or past players who played when only 8 teams made the playoffs (like in the 80's).

The best thing to do with advanced stats is to take all them into consideration and rank appropriately. Admittedly, Kobe is a tough, tough rank, kind of like the inverse of Chris Paul (who dominates every advanced stat category known but has never been past the 2nd round). Real talk, you can put Kobe at 10 or 30 and both could probably be justified. I think he's in that 2nd tier with KG, Barkley, Dirk, Dr. J, etc. I don't see how that's an insult?

They also love David Robinson. But at least he has teh crappy team-mates defense. Paul plays with a prime Blake Griffin a #1 overall pick top 5 in PER ... no excuses for Paul to choke in the playoffs, I am sorry. That is part of why I dont trust the regular season metrics because they over inflate Malone, CP3, David and even Barkley. Winning still matters. If not why not give Minny Kevin Love more credit?

[Killakobe81]

Off the top of my head, I'd put Kobe at #10 alltime, though you could make an argument up to #7.

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. LeBron James
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

That's a fair and good list and almost in-line with career playoff wins shares though by that metric, Hakeem and Bird are slightly overrated.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Off the top of my head, I'd put Kobe at #10 alltime, though you could make an argument up to #7. Hated leaving Moses out of the top 10, but I'd easily pick any of these guys over him.

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. LeBron James
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

This is a good list, except I would put Lebron at 10, and switch Duncan with Wilt

[ElNono]

Nobody would rank Pippen top 10, probably not even top 15... you have to go for the whole 'killer mentality, eye test' bull to crowbar Kirbs in the top 10, tbh

[Killakobe81]

Yeah it is like some of these idiots have taken the extreme on applying advanced stats, throwing common sense to the wind. Rings matter, period, thats how the greats are defined.

I will never co-sign an argument that doesnt account for rings. IF they did not matter LeBron has a legit case over Jordan but they DO matter ...and subsequently duncan has a case over James. If not Lebron is definitely over Timmy.

[Killakobe81]

Nobody would rank Pippen top 10, probably not even top 15... you have to go for the whole 'killer mentality, eye test' bull to crowbar Kirbs in the top 10, tbh

Not according to playoff win shares, EL. It's actually a pretty good list.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

I will never co-sign an argument that doesnt account for rings. IF they did not matter LeBron has a legit case over Jordan but they DO matter ...and subsequently duncan has a case over James. If not Lebron is definitely over Timmy.

Exactly, hit the nail on the head.

[whitemamba]

o yeah, who the is kevin pelton? is he related to cN?

[Killakobe81]

Isnt the KL as a bordeline MVp argument the same arguments you can make for Pippen as a top 15 player? Not saying I agree but just sayin' ...

[baseline bum]

That's a fair and good list and almost in-line with career playoff wins shares though by that metric, Hakeem and Bird are slightly overrated.

I give Olajuwon the benefit of the doubt for winning probably the most difficult le in league history in 1994-95, considering he had to go through Stockton & Malone, then KJ & Barkley, then DRob, then Shaq & Penny. I don't know if we'll ever see that kind of playoff run again, and Olajuwon just dominated it. And then winning the le in 94 with a supporting cast consisting mostly of role playing three point shooters, like the Van Gundy Magic except with a real center.

Bird gets the benefit because his prime was so amazing. Too bad his back was constantly injured so he couldn't have the longevity of guys like Kareem, Duncan, Karl Malone, etc though. I can't hold it too much against him that he just didn't give a what he was doing to his body the way he played.

[Killakobe81]

o yeah, who the is kevin pelton? is he related to cN?

Cn doesnt even have Kobe in his top 100 all-time ...

[Killakobe81]

I give Olajuwon the benefit of the doubt for winning probably the most difficult le in league history in 1994-95, considering he had to go through Stockton & Malone, then KJ & Barkley, then DRob, then Shaq & Penny. I don't know if we'll ever see that kind of playoff run again, and Olajuwon just dominated it. And then winning the le in 94 with a supporting cast consisting mostly of role playing three point shooters, like the Van Gundy Magic except with a real center.

Bird gets the benefit because his prime was so amazing. Too bad his back was constantly injured so he couldn't have the longevity of guys like Kareem, Duncan, Karl Malone, etc though. I can't hold it too much against him that he just didn't give a what he was doing to his body the way he played.

No doubt a part of me wanted to place Hakeem over Shaq because he played a more beautiful game of hoops ... but in the end despite the ugly bully ball Shaq was so dominant.
I know we troll here but if we talking real Lakers had the #7 and #8 winshare leaders in their primes along with #25 Horry against Timmy who had #23 Gino and past his prime #27 David Robinson ... no way was he winning those series.

[midnightpulp]

They also love David Robinson. But at least he has teh crappy team-mates defense. Paul plays with a prime Blake Griffin a #1 overall pick top 5 in PER ... no excuses for Paul to choke in the playoffs, I am sorry. That is part of why I dont trust the regular season metrics because they over inflate Malone, CP3, David and even Barkley. Winning still matters. If not why not give Minny Kevin Love more credit?

I usually only refer to playoff metrics in these evaluations. Reg. season accomplishments should only be about 20% of the equation (there's exceptions, like in the event a great player simply can't get off a bad team or something).

Chris Paul also has dominant playoff metrics. And despite his chokejobs, his clutch stats remain dominant. He is an all-time great player, who had greatest PG of all-time potential, but he just always seems to do the wrong thing at the right time. CN diagnosed the problem. Paul will play perfect basketball for 3.75 quarters (which will inflate his metrics) and then go into dribble-dribble-dribble hero mode for the last few minutes of the 4th in a close game. He'll hit some big shots, but his team loses its rhythm and the Clippers struggle to close out games.

[Killakobe81]

I usually only refer to playoff metrics in these evaluations. Reg. season accomplishments should only be about 20% of the equation (there's exceptions, like in the event a great player simply can't get off a bad team or something).

Chris Paul also has dominant playoff metrics. And despite his chokejobs, his clutch stats remain dominant. He is an all-time great player, who had greatest PG of all-time potential, but he just always seems to do the wrong thing at the right time. CN diagnosed the problem. Paul will play perfect basketball for 3.75 quarters (which will inflate his metrics) and then go into dribble-dribble-dribble hero mode for the last few minutes of the 4th in a close game. He'll hit some big shots, but his team loses its rhythm and the Clippers struggle to close out games.

But I can take it a step further. Look at Paul in games 1-3 vs. 4-6 and the Game 7's ...
He dominates almost every series early on but because he expends so much energy, doubling, trapping, whining and flopping by series end he flames out.
The Nola series vs Spurs and the one vs Lakers in 2011 (2009?) are prime examples ...

He is a great player but his career playoff win shares are horrible. Mo cheeks and Tony Parker have better numbers and he is by far the better player.

His game score in game 1: 37
Games 5 and 6: 19.8 and 11

That is how most of his series go tbh ...

[TrainOfThought5]

I give Olajuwon the benefit of the doubt for winning probably the most difficult le in league history in 1994-95, considering he had to go through Stockton & Malone, then KJ & Barkley, then DRob, then Shaq & Penny. I don't know if we'll ever see that kind of playoff run again, and Olajuwon just dominated it. And then winning the le in 94 with a supporting cast consisting mostly of role playing three point shooters, like the Van Gundy Magic except with a real center.

Bird gets the benefit because his prime was so amazing. Too bad his back was constantly injured so he couldn't have the longevity of guys like Kareem, Duncan, Karl Malone, etc though. I can't hold it too much against him that he just didn't give a what he was doing to his body the way he played.

True. My main issue is Lebron placement on these top 10 lists. How are they placing Lebron above Shaq? And right under Duncan??

There is no credit for losing in the finals.

[baseline bum]

True. My main issue is Lebron placement on these top 10 lists. How are they placing Lebron above Shaq? And right under Duncan??

There is no credit for losing in the finals.

Shaq lost twice in the Finals with stacked teams and was more a role player in his le year in Miami. I can't hold 2007 against James, Jordan wouldn't have won two games from that Spurs team with the crap LeBron had around him that series. The only playoff performance I can hold against James is 2011 when the Mavs just bullied the out of him.

[wekko368]

True. My main issue is Lebron placement on these top 10 lists. How are they placing Lebron above Shaq? And right under Duncan??

There is no credit for losing in the finals.

He has 4 MVPs.

[ElNono]

Not according to playoff win shares, EL. It's actually a pretty good list.

Chauncey Billups ranks #18 in NBA all time playoffs win shares... there's no way in Chauncey Billups is top 20 all time. No way.

That's why sticking to a single stat, advanced or not, never makes sense.

[baseline bum]

He has 4 MVPs.

And LeBron was the best player in the league every year from 2007-08 to 2013-14.

[SupremeGuy]

I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest here

If that was true lolaker fans wouldn't be so insecure about it.