Lakers: Kevin Pelton: Why Kobe Bryant is NOT a top-10 all-time player

[Killakobe81]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one le. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 le teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and le teams?

[Koolaid_Man]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one le. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 le teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and le teams?

Look I get you you fellas want stimulating duscyssion....I get it..but life is not always about being a proper nerd....This whole post is part of the problem..see you fellas keep looking to measure the immeasurable....its not about stats per se....as with these kinds of guys its about intangibles, intensity, fearlessness, and HEART which cannot be measured...leave the over blown stat mongering for the Star players...this is an example of what I'm referring to a fearlessness and heart that cannot be measured.

[Killakobe81]

Look I get you you fellas want stimulating duscyssion....I get it..but life is not always about being a proper nerd....This whole post is part of the problem..see you fellas keep looking to measure the immeasurable....its not about stats per se....as with these kinds of guys its about intangibles, intensity, fearlessness, and HEART which cannot be measured...leave the over blown stat mongering for the Star players...this is an example of what I'm referring to a fearlessness and heart that cannot be measured.

I get what you saying bruh and I trust my eyes over numbers ...but we still ahve to evolve with the game. Metrics are more prevalent I dont trust them often but palyoff career winshares is better than most to me for a couple reasons...first it does seem to get closer to my eye test. And it rewards a longevity of success but not so much so that Kareem is #1 in everything or Karl Malone. Kobe is given a fair spot at #8 and Magic in the top 5 with Jordan at #1duncan maybe a little high but a case can be made he is the most consistent winner since Mj so tough to argue with him near the top of that list.

As yfor your video Kobe was a beast ...I miss those days.

[ambchang]

You did not just dog piled on Kobe so I threw you in as I was laughing at that list ... guilt by association, brother.

Your problem then. And yes. I listed those above or with Kobe. Let's argue on those.

[FkLA]

OK,let me get this straight Kobe is playing with the FO led by a guy regularly called Fredo. The CBA and rules changes have tilted to favor him.In fact he was the power player in the Union that agreed to the new CBA. He has played for Riles and with Bosh and Wade. Now gets to run a front office basically and call his own shots ...but you want to point to the Lakers advantages? The same ones that was wiped away 5 years ago? I defend Mitch but Jerry west has been gone for the Lakers over 10 years now. So just stop with the LeBron excuse making. He doesn't need any. he is the GOAT SF ...getting to run rough shod over a ty Eastern conference.
For the record I agree prime Lebron is better. Career wise right now (not just by rings) I can see a debate between the two based on accomplishments and longevity.
James is on pace to smash every career record Kobe has and do it more efficiently. So it's not crazy to say Lebron is greater than Kobe in fact it'sprobably inevitable for him to surpass Kobe if he hasn't already.
But stop acting like James has been some victim of cir stances he has had plenty of things in his favor as well.

It's ridiculous how biased you are.

[Cry Havoc]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one le. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 le teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and le teams?

If you could make a formula to accurately measure this, you'd put an end to all of the "Who's the top 10 of all-time?" talk, at least amongst statheads. I think defense is still criminally underrated in most analysis, but a lot of the NBA is waking up to the NBA's version of Sabermetrics.

It's all contextual. Rings ARE valuable (duh), but they are ancillary to the center of the discussion. For instance, Duncan's 03 campaign is by far his best case for arguing about how good he was when he "peaked", it's also the ring that you can point to the most as a guy who basically beat the rest of the NBA with a meager supporting cast.

Advanced stats have been around since forever in baseball, and they are used far more frequently than in the NBA (though that's changing). Even in baseball, unless you have someone come along like Rivera, who's truly dominant, it's a pretty wide open debate about best pitchers of all-time (and even then some will say Goose Gossage).

Stats support context, and context supports stats. The minute you try to make one of them work without the other, you fail in your assessment. Otherwise, close it up, Russell is the greatest player ever. But most of us would agree that's not the case here, and many would say he's not even top 5.

[Koolaid_Man]

No one wants to talk bout this knowledge you spittin

Hakeem Olajuwon said it best....the 2 guard position is the toughest position in all of basketball...and this is coming from a 4/ 5 position player...who in my view was 10x the player Tim Duncan ever was....its not even close comparing Hakeem who was far far superior offensively and defensively to Tim...but back to your point Tim Duncan had it easy...while the whole world was gunning for Kobe...every single night....his body gave out because he simply gave more..look at the global impact on the game...people around the world in every country from Asia, China especially China , the Middle East, just about every country in Europe, South America, Africa you name it they all worship Kobe....

The US business moguls from Apple CEO, Facebook, Oprah Winfrey, billionaires such as Richard Branson, Warren Buffet, etc all doing business with and mentoring Kobe...all of the Hollywood elites love Kobe....Floyd Mayweather, Manny Paqucio and atheletes from across all sports such as football, baseball etc all point to Kobe as their inspiration....99% of the All-time greats such as MJ, Kareem, Dr J, Larry Bird, Magic, even Red Auerbach's daughter all have Kobe ranked behind MJ....99% of current players including every rookie class since 2000 all have Kobe as their favorite player and the consensus #2 behind MJ....almost every Olympic atheistic from every country in the world all love Kobe.. don't make me bump all my old threads on how all those white female Olympians from the Swim teams, to the Vollyball teams to the soccer teams all going crazy over that when he steps into the building...I'm jealous as of this

But my point is simple...Tim Duncan pales in comparison to Kobe....its not even close in the grand scheme of things...that's why I let Spur fans have their moment...deep inside they know Tim is not on Kobes level...and if they don't they're delusional...what I've just layed out is proof...Tim plays in pressure less Market...where court side seats sell for as low as 13 cents no way the accomplishments are the same...every night as you mentioned teams ran 2 and 3 athletic wing defenders at Kobe at all times...some of the games most atheletic and compe ive players we've ever seen...

From MJ, to Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Nash, Tracy Mcgrady, Allen Iverson, Dwade, Lebron James, Mike Bobby, Ron Artest, Tony Allen, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie, Rueben Patterson, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Jamal Masburn, Jimmy Jackson, Kevin Durant, Westbrook, and on and on and on and on....

What's even more astounding aside from the partial list of tough players Kobe had to defend and play against is the fact that once he got past those athletic players he had to deal with the bigs down low from the 3 to the 5 positions and boy did he ever...thats why I laugh my ass off when people like DPG, Splits, Midnight Pulp, DMC, and KillaKobe say that Duncan was a better player and had a better career..especially in light of position played, le defense and Olympic team contribution...the level of ignorance they show is astounding....

But like I said let them have their moment

[ambchang]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one le. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 le teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and le teams?

First it's ulative. Those players played a lot of games.

Second those players were instrumental in those wins.

Third, their bench replacement sucked so their teams suffer more when he's off the court but gains when they are on it.

Fourth, they are usually part of the best lineup.

[Killakobe81]

First it's ulative. Those players played a lot of games.

Second those players were instrumental in those wins.

Third, their bench replacement sucked so their teams suffer more when he's off the court but gains when they are on it.

Fourth, they are usually part of the best lineup.

Of course those guys played a bunch of playoff games but wouldn't they have played more regular season ones? So why does Stockton rise and Malone fall? didn't they play almost their entire careers together? I get Fisher and Horry getting a unfair boost based on playing with great players but again I ask how do we value all they have done? I see some merit here but like any stat it has it's drawbacks ...

[Killakobe81]

It's ridiculous how biased you are.

It's biased how?
LeBron is the GOAT SF
LeBron is on pace to smash every Kobe record
Prime LeBron is better ...
wow ...those are pretty biased claims.

[FkLA]

It's biased how?
LeBron is the GOAT SF
LeBron is on pace to smash every Kobe record
Prime LeBron is better ...
wow ...those are pretty biased claims.

No, you trying to act like their cir stances are even remotely comparable is what's biased. The Lakers had the history, les, and glamor of LA before Kirby. Cleveland is a loser in sports and widely considered a dump of a city. LBJ is the only thing that makes that team/city attractive to other players.

As far as his stint in Miami, if anything it proves all he ever needed was more help. LBJ doesn't lack a 'winner' gene that Kirby has, he just lacked the cast Kirby has good most of his career. 4 finals trips and 2 les is a pretty successful run. Now imagine he had a prime Wade right away instead of an aging one (like Kirby had with Shaq)...then after that the got a dominant frontline. You telling me LBJ wouldn't have a handful of rings with that scenario?? He'd still be stuck at 2?

[Killakobe81]

No, you trying to act like their cir stances are even remotely comparable is what's biased. The Lakers had the history, les, and glamor of LA before Kirby. Cleveland is a loser in sports and widely considered a dump of a city. LBJ is the only thing that makes that team/city attractive to other players.

As far as his stint in Miami, if anything it proves all he ever needed was more help. LBJ doesn't lack a 'winner' gene that Kirby has, he just lacked the cast Kirby has good most of his career. 4 finals trips and 2 les is a pretty successful run. Now imagine he had a prime Wade right away instead of an aging one (like Kirby had with Shaq)...then after that the got a dominant frontline. You telling me LBJ wouldn't have a handful of rings with that scenario?? He'd still be stuck at 2?

who still said he lacked the winner gene? Skip Bayless? who still says that in 2015?
All I said he doesn't need excuses which I still stand by.
Saying Kobe had advantages is exclusive of making excuses for Lebron ...

[Killakobe81]

and on top of all THAT ... he is the one that chose his current environment. obviously the ownership and FO isn't as bad as what Kobe deals with now ... or why would he leave Riles and Spo?

[FkLA]

who still said he lacked the winner gene? Skip Bayless? who still says that in 2015?
All I said he doesn't need excuses which I still stand by.
Saying Kobe had advantages is exclusive of making excuses for Lebron ...

It's not an excuse if it's blatantly obvious. Are you really going to sit there and act like the city of LA is comparable to the city of Cleveland? Or the Lakers franchise to the Cavs franchise? If the answer is yes then you can't call yourself an objective observer. You're clearly a Kirby fanboy.

[FkLA]

and on top of all THAT ... he is the one that chose his current environment. obviously the ownership and FO isn't as bad as what Kobe deals with now ... or why would he leave Riles and Spo?

His current environment is fine, injuries happened last year but the roster itself is solid. I'm talking about the first half of his career. It proves environments clearly do matter.

[ambchang]

Of course those guys played a bunch of playoff games but wouldn't they have played more regular season ones? So why does Stockton rise and Malone fall? didn't they play almost their entire careers together? I get Fisher and Horry getting a unfair boost based on playing with great players but again I ask how do we value all they have done? I see some merit here but like any stat it has it's drawbacks ...

Of course they have draw backs, but most advanced stats are directionally correct. They give you a picture and by combining a few of them together gives you a great view of the best players.

Stockton really drove the Jazz offense. Less disciplined teams in the regular season allowed pedo to hurt them, but in the playoffs, with a more disciplined approach and due to match ups, Stockton became more valuable. There weren't a lot of great PGs in the 90s but s lot of great bigs, especially in the west (Hakeem, Robinson, kemp, mutumbo) and going through those in consecutive series will hurt the numbers for everyone, but especially so for a choking pedophile.