Justice Antonin Scalia floats ‘lesser schools’ for black students

[angrydude]

yes, really.

Read the briefs in support of UT.

http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Fisher-V-Texas.html

Just about everyone believes there is.

They say it, that doesn't mean its true. It's like saying you like rainbows and unicorns. Who is against rainbows and unicorns?

College is about sitting in a classroom, being lectured at, then writing an exam parroting what the teacher says while under the mistaken impression that if you're good at it there is a job for you down the road even though there isn't.

Period. End. Stop.

If they really wanted to invite diversity in discussion they would have affirmative action for conservatives. lol

[DMX7]

They say it, that doesn't mean its true. It's like saying you like rainbows and unicorns. Who is against rainbows and unicorns?

College is about sitting in a classroom, being lectured at, then writing an exam parroting what the teacher says while under the mistaken impression that if you're good at it there is a job for you down the road even though there isn't.

Period. End. Stop.

If they really wanted to invite diversity in discussion they would have affirmative action for conservatives. lol

45 of the Fortune 100 companies filed amicus briefs in favor of UT. Military leaders, every Ivy League university, the NY Bar, the federal government, etc. all support affirmative action in college admissions and filed briefs in favor of UT. Sorry, you're laughable "rainbows and unicorns" rebuttal doesn't change that and doesn't make it untrue.

College life at diploma mills is basically what you described. You probably attended one, so that's no surprise. At better colleges, it's considerably different.

[DarrinS]

This is what I took away from that session. First off they sort packets with "thicker packet=thinner student" in mind; packets heavily padded with achievements and recommendations are pushed to the bottom of the pile. SAT scores are important but when you have 1000 packets all with >2300 scores it just doesn't mean much and is then basically ignored. They prefer to look at "trends" in the student's learning. A student who hits struggles along the way academically and recovers is preferable to one that never falters. And then the dreaded essay. An essay with mild grammatical errors is preferable to a computer precise one. An essay that focuses on what the student hopes to achieve for himself is tossed in favor of the student who focuses on how he will use his education to better the world around him. It was an eye opener to me to say the least but I got it when one of the panelists stated that was how they avoid accepting "parent driven automatons" in favor of real talent.

WTF? Tbh

[DMX7]

For us basketball fans, imagine a world in which we didn't get to see the very, very best but instead the players were apportioned by race - there'd be the requisite asian, x whites, x hispanics and ONLY 16% blacks. In this world, we would only see Lebron, Durant, Davis, ... the very top players - we would not see the black players who even though they were better than the asian/white/hispanic players couldn't play because of AA. Fortunately for us, in a free market system we get to see the best based on merit not race.

If you had to have brain surgery done (Ben Carson notwithstanding), would you prefer the very best surgeon based on merit or one who got in because of AA (med school admission accepts blacks with lower MCAT scores and GPA than white/asians).

LMAO, you couldn't have discredited yourself more with you're own argument. You even acknowledge Carson...

I believe that I benefited from affirmative action. When I applied to Yale University, I thought my chances of being accepted were favorable only because I was somewhat naive about admissions requirements for a high-powered Ivy League ins ution. - Ben Carson

This discussion is about affirmative action in college admissions and in the process of educating people. Professions are something different and a different conversation. The point is to create diversity in the learning environment and to give minorities a chance at elite schools... so they may go on to become world class professionals the way Carson did... even though his grades/test scores didn't necessarily indicate he was more talented than other applicants.

[DarrinS]

Stanford SAT scores

25th Percentile = 2070
Average = 2210
75th Percentile = 2350


Former mayor Julian Castro = 1210

[CosmicCowboy]

Stanford SAT scores

25th Percentile = 2070
Average = 2210
75th Percentile = 2350


Former mayor Julian Castro = 1210

Before 2005 a 1600 was a perfect SAT score.

[DarrinS]

Before 2005 a 1600 was a perfect SAT score.

My bad

[rmt]

LMAO, you couldn't have discredited yourself more with you're own argument. You even acknowledge Carson...



This discussion is about affirmative action in college admissions and in the process of educating people. Professions are something different and a different conversation. The point is to create diversity in the learning environment and to give minorities a chance at elite schools... so they may go on to become world class professionals the way Carson did... even though his grades/test scores didn't necessarily indicate he was more talented than other applicants.

Med school is highly driven by GPA and MCAT scores and like regular college admission, blacks are admitted with lower grades/scores than whites/asians. Look, I have nothing but admiration for Ben Carson and say, Clarence Thomas, who might or might not have also gotten "help."

I'll give you the ironic twist to our experience with AA. My dd chose to go into computer science so I researched the top schools and had her apply to UT-Austin (#6 in CS in the country) - the only one that I could even dream of affording (compared to Stanford, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, etc) - they had offered her a freshman scholarship of $10,000 enough to cover 1 year of Texas resident tuition. We went to visit and met with the head of the CS dept. When we arrived back in Miami, UT offered her a $1000 scholarship with more importantly, an out-of-state tuition waiver ($36k-$10k = $26k). Now, my dd is an excellent all-round student but not any computer whiz. She got this very rare waiver because she falls into 2 underrepresented categories for CS - female with a disability (missing 4 fingers on her right hand). She got into their honors program when other much better (male) computer whizzes didn't. They wanted her for diversity because she doesn't eat, sleep and breathe CS - she's into knitting, arts and crafts, violin, Girl Scout but hadn't done any open source programming, etc.

Fast forward, she said almost all of her fellow CS students applied at Google back in late Aug/early Sept when it first came out. She didn't think she had a chance until about 2-3 weeks before the Nov 30 deadline when I finally convinced her to apply. She applied on a Wednesday, got called the following Monday for 2 interviews, interviewed the next Monday and got accepted the following week. All this while her really GREAT (male) CS classmates haven't heard a word since Aug. These computer nerds finish their assignments in a couple days while she takes a whole week and is often struggling on a Sunday night to meet the deadline.

I know she is nowhere near as good as they are. She was not chosen on the merits of her CS work, but because of other stuff. Now, she's gonna get a chance at working at Google over some really smart CS kids who could invent who knows what. For her, it'll be just a job - something she could make a (good) living at, but she'll go home and be involved in other things more important to her. Do I feel guilty knowing that better CS kids got passed over for my generalist, female, disabled child? You bet I do. And even though it's my child, I still believe it should be judged on merit - not for diversity. We (Google, universities, med schools) do ourselves a disservice not recruiting the very best - who knows what cures, inventions, life-changing things are not discovered because of diversity.

[101A]

I don't know about AA, but I CAN tell you that we are doomed. Just finished helping my wife grade some Chem 101 lab finals. One of the questions was to convert a given weight from mg to kg. Regardless of race, about half missed it.

[baseline bum]

For us basketball fans, imagine a world in which we didn't get to see the very, very best but instead the players were apportioned by race - there'd be the requisite asian, x whites, x hispanics and ONLY 16% blacks. In this world, we would only see Lebron, Durant, Davis, ... the very top players - we would not see the black players who even though they were better than the asian/white/hispanic players couldn't play because of AA. Fortunately for us, in a free market system we get to see the best based on merit not race.

If you had to have brain surgery done (Ben Carson notwithstanding), would you prefer the very best surgeon based on merit or one who got in because of AA (med school admission accepts blacks with lower MCAT scores and GPA than white/asians).

The NBA isn't a free market system, are you nuts? If the NBA was a free market system LeBron would be making 3x as much in salary.

[rmt]

The NBA isn't a free market system, are you nuts? If the NBA was a free market system LeBron would be making 3x as much in salary.

I know - it's almost like a union. The very best bring up the lowest denominator. But you know what I mean. You do have to have talent and work hard - not chosen because you are a certain race. They are the best players on the planet. And Lebron, Durant get rewarded by the free market system with endorsements.

[SpursforSix]

..white kids by and large come to school from day 1 with all the resources they will ever need whereas most blacks don't.

LOL That's bull . "all the resources they will ever need".

[DMX7]

The NBA isn't a free market system, are you nuts? If the NBA was a free market system LeBron would be making 3x as much in salary.

The salary cap was designed to create a level playing field, so that small market teams like San Antonio could compete with larger market teams like Chicago and L.A.

But that's not a happy thought when you love free market capitalism and think almost no regulation should occur.

[spurraider21]

Stanford SAT scores

25th Percentile = 2070
Average = 2210
75th Percentile = 2350


Former mayor Julian Castro = 1210

Before 2005 a 1600 was a perfect SAT score.

darrin did you research castro's SAT on your own or was there a recent article that you read complaining about it? could you link it please

[baseline bum]

The salary cap was designed to create a level playing field, so that small market teams like San Antonio could compete with larger market teams like Chicago and L.A.

But that's not a happy thought when you love free market capitalism and think almost no regulation should occur.

Yeah, LeBron would be making $60 million in New York or San Francisco right now if the NBA operated like a free market, and the Spurs would be in Anaheim or perhaps contracted.

[Spurminator]

I can't think of a single business that operates as a free market within a free market.

[rmt]

I can't think of a single business that operates as a free market within a free market.

With regard to basketball, it's not a pure free market, but if the NBA did an AA thing and chose based on race, someone else would open another league, hire all the better black players and run the NBA out of business. The consumer would go where the better product (basketball player) is.

[DMX7]

With regard to basketball, it's not a pure free market, but if the NBA did an AA thing and chose based on race, someone else would open another league, hire all the better black players and run the NBA out of business. The consumer would go where the better product (basketball player) is.

It's really not the same thing as AA in education in this context. And we're talking about mostly borderline admits here. It's not like the best and brightest whites are going to get denied by a completely undeserving minority. But when credentials are similar, why not choose diversity?

[rmt]

It's really not the same thing as AA in education in this context. And we're talking about mostly borderline admits here. It's not like the best and brightest whites are going to get denied by a completely undeserving minority. But when credentials are similar, why not choose diversity?

Yes, of course, when credentials are similar, choose diversity. But in the case of education, credentials are not similar are they? In my dd's case, the best and brightest asian/white males are being denied the chance to intern at Google in favor of my nowhere near as good cs daughter.

And yes, there is value in diversity. Manu is worth much more to the Spurs because he is hispanic than a black player of similar talent would.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My bad

Sophist is as sophist does.

It should be noted that this account claims to have graduated UTSA engineering in the 1980s. He should know better yet doesn't.

[rmt]

Sophist is as sophist does.

It should be noted that this account claims to have graduated UTSA engineering in the 1980s. He should know better yet doesn't.

They are switching back to the 1600. Ds took the new PSAT in Oct and is awaiting the result. National Merit honors in Florida means a FULL ride at our state universities.

[DMX7]

Yes, of course, when credentials are similar, choose diversity. But in the case of education, credentials are not similar are they?

Similar enough -- which of course is subjective and varies from school to school -- but I don't think anyone is saying people who are completely lacking credentials should be taking the spot of students who are truly top notch. In the case of Fisher, her credentials were far from impeccable.

[boutons_deux]

Scalia spouts off ill-considered, extemporaneous, un-SCOTUS-worthy the same way Trump spouts .

Thanks, Repugs!

[Koolaid_Man]

study's show AA helps white women as much or even more than people of color.

I do don't I

[DarrinS]

darrin did you research castro's SAT on your own or was there a recent article that you read complaining about it? could you link it please

Yeah, I screwed that up. Regardless, Castro's score would've been well below average Stanford.