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  1. #1
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    KET, Nigeria — The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.

    His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him – Mount Zion Lighthouse.

    A month later, he died.

    Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

    Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

    "It is an outrage what they are allowing to take place in the name of Christianity," said Gary Foxcroft, head of nonprofit Stepping Stones Nigeria.

    For their part, the families are often extremely poor, and sometimes even relieved to have one less mouth to feed. Poverty, conflict and poor education lay the foundation for accusations, which are then triggered by the death of a relative, the loss of a job or the denunciation of a pastor on the make, said Martin Dawes, a spokesman for the United Nations Children's Fund.

    "When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats," he said. "It plays into traditional beliefs that someone is responsible for a negative change ... and children are defenseless."

    ____

    The idea of witchcraft is hardly new, but it has taken on new life recently partly because of a rapid growth in evangelical Christianity. Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire.

    Nigeria is one of the heartlands of abuse, but hardly the only one: the United Nations Children's Fund says tens of thousands of children have been targeted throughout Africa.

    Church signs sprout around every twist of the road snaking through the jungle between Uyo, the capital of the southern Akwa Ibom state where Nwanaokwo lay, and Eket, home to many more rejected "witch children." Churches outnumber schools, clinics and banks put together. Many promise to solve parishioner's material worries as well as spiritual ones – eight out of ten Nigerians struggle by on less than $2 a day.

    "Poverty must catch fire," insists the Born 2 Rule Crusade on one of Uyo's main streets.

    "Where little shots become big shots in a short time," promises the Winner's Chapel down the road.

    "Pray your way to riches," advises Embassy of Christ a few blocks away.

    It's hard for churches to carve out a congregation with so much compe ion. So some pastors establish their credentials by accusing children of witchcraft.

    Nwanaokwo said he knew the pastor who accused him only as Pastor King. Mount Zion Lighthouse in Nigeria at first confirmed that a Pastor King worked for them, then denied that they knew any such person.

    Bishop A.D. Ayakndue, the head of the church in Nigeria, said pastors were encouraged to pray about witchcraft, but not to abuse children.

    "We pray over that problem (of witchcraft) very powerfully," he said. "But we can never hurt a child."

    The Nigerian church is a branch of a Californian church by the same name. But the California church says it lost touch with its Nigerian offshoots several years ago.

    "I had no idea," said church elder Carrie King by phone from Tracy, Calif. "I knew people believed in witchcraft over there but we believe in the power of prayer, not physically harming people."

    The Mount Zion Lighthouse – also named by three other families as the accuser of their children – is part of the powerful Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria. The Fellowship's president, Ayo Oritsejafor, said the Fellowship was the fastest-growing religious group in Nigeria, with more than 30 million members.

    "We have grown so much in the past few years we cannot keep an eye on everybody," he explained.

    But Foxcroft, the head of Stepping Stones, said if the organization was able to collect membership fees, it could also police its members better. He had already written to the organization twice to alert it to the abuse, he said. He suggested the fellowship ask members to sign forms denouncing abuse or hold meetings to educate pastors about the new child rights law in the state of Akwa Ibom, which makes it illegal to denounce children as witches. Similar laws and education were needed in other states, he said.

    Sam Itauma of the Children's Rights and Rehabilitation Network said it is the most vulnerable children – the orphaned, sick, disabled or poor – who are most often denounced. In Nwanaokwo's case, his poor father and dead mother made him an easy target.

    "Even churches who didn't use to 'find' child witches are being forced into it by the compe ion," said Itauma. "They are seen as spiritually powerful because they can detect witchcraft and the parents may even pay them money for an exorcism."

    That's what Margaret Eyekang did when her 8-year-old daughter Abigail was accused by a "prophet" from the Apostolic Church, because the girl liked to sleep outside on hot nights – interpreted as meaning she might be flying off to join a coven. A series of exorcisms cost Eyekang eight months' wages, or US$270. The payments bankrupted her.

    Neighbors also attacked her daughter.

    "They beat her with sticks and asked me why I was bringing them a witch child," she said. A relative offered Eyekang floor space but Abigail was not welcome and had to sleep in the streets.

    Members of two other families said pastors from the Apostolic Church had accused their children of witchcraft, but asked not to be named for fear of retaliation.

    The Nigeria Apostolic Church refused repeated requests made by phone, e-mail and in person for comment.

    ___

    At first glance, there's nothing unusual about the laughing, grubby kids playing hopscotch or reading from a tattered and Jane book by the graffiti-scrawled cinderblock house. But this is where children like Abigail end up after being labeled witches by churches and abandoned or tortured by their families.

    There's a scar above Jane's shy smile: her mother tried to saw off the top of her skull after a pastor denounced her and repeated exorcisms costing a total of $60 didn't cure her of witchcraft. Mary, 15, is just beginning to think about boys and how they will look at the scar tissue on her face caused when her mother doused her in caustic soda. Twelve-year-old Rachel dreamed of being a banker but instead was chained up by her pastor, starved and beaten with sticks repeatedly; her uncle paid him $60 for the exorcism.

    Israel's cousin tried to bury him alive, Nwaekwa's father drove a nail through her head, and sweet-tempered Jerry – all knees, elbows and toothy grin – was beaten by his pastor, starved, made to eat cement and then set on fire by his father as his pastor's wife cheered it on.

    The children at the home run by Itauma's organization have been mutilated as casually as the praying mantises they play with. Home officials asked for the children's last names not to be used to protect them from retaliation.

    The home was founded in 2003 with seven children; it now has 120 to 200 at any given time as children are reconciled with their families and new victims arrive.

    Helen Ukpabio is one of the few evangelists publicly linked to the denunciation of child witches. She heads the enormous Liberty Gospel church in Calabar, where Nwanaokwo used to live. Ukpabio makes and distributes popular books and DVDs on witchcraft; in one film, a group of child witches pull out a man's eyeballs. In another book, she advises that 60 percent of the inability to bear children is caused by witchcraft.

    In an interview with the AP, Ukpabio is accompanied by her lawyer, church officials and personal film crew.

    "Witchcraft is real," Ukpabio insisted, before denouncing the physical abuse of children. Ukpabio says she performs non-abusive exorcisms for free and was not aware of or responsible for any misinterpretation of her materials.

    "I don't know about that," she declared.

    However, she then acknowledged that she had seen a pastor from the Apostolic Church break a girl's jaw during an exorcism. Ukpabio said she prayed over her that night and cast out the demon. She did not respond to questions on whether she took the girl to hospital or complained about the injury to church authorities.

    After activists publicly identified Liberty Gospel as denouncing "child witches," armed police arrived at Itauma's home accompanied by a church lawyer. Three children were injured in the fracas. Itauma asked that other churches identified by children not be named to protect their victims.

    "We cannot afford to make enemies of all the churches around here," he said. "But we know the vast majority of them are involved in the abuse even if their headquarters aren't aware."

    Just mentioning the name of a church is enough to frighten a group of bubbly children at the home.

    "Please stop the pastors who hurt us," said Jerry quietly, touching the scars on his face. "I believe in God and God knows I am not a witch."
    AP report via: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_324943.html


    Where are US religious leaders condemning this, and working to stop it?

  2. #2
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    KET, Nigeria — The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.

    His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him – Mount Zion Lighthouse.

    A month later, he died.

    Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

    Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

    "It is an outrage what they are allowing to take place in the name of Christianity," said Gary Foxcroft, head of nonprofit Stepping Stones Nigeria.

    For their part, the families are often extremely poor, and sometimes even relieved to have one less mouth to feed. Poverty, conflict and poor education lay the foundation for accusations, which are then triggered by the death of a relative, the loss of a job or the denunciation of a pastor on the make, said Martin Dawes, a spokesman for the United Nations Children's Fund.

    "When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats," he said. "It plays into traditional beliefs that someone is responsible for a negative change ... and children are defenseless."

    ____

    The idea of witchcraft is hardly new, but it has taken on new life recently partly because of a rapid growth in evangelical Christianity. Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire.

    Nigeria is one of the heartlands of abuse, but hardly the only one: the United Nations Children's Fund says tens of thousands of children have been targeted throughout Africa.

    Church signs sprout around every twist of the road snaking through the jungle between Uyo, the capital of the southern Akwa Ibom state where Nwanaokwo lay, and Eket, home to many more rejected "witch children." Churches outnumber schools, clinics and banks put together. Many promise to solve parishioner's material worries as well as spiritual ones – eight out of ten Nigerians struggle by on less than $2 a day.

    "Poverty must catch fire," insists the Born 2 Rule Crusade on one of Uyo's main streets.

    "Where little shots become big shots in a short time," promises the Winner's Chapel down the road.

    "Pray your way to riches," advises Embassy of Christ a few blocks away.

    It's hard for churches to carve out a congregation with so much compe ion. So some pastors establish their credentials by accusing children of witchcraft.

    Nwanaokwo said he knew the pastor who accused him only as Pastor King. Mount Zion Lighthouse in Nigeria at first confirmed that a Pastor King worked for them, then denied that they knew any such person.

    Bishop A.D. Ayakndue, the head of the church in Nigeria, said pastors were encouraged to pray about witchcraft, but not to abuse children.

    "We pray over that problem (of witchcraft) very powerfully," he said. "But we can never hurt a child."

    The Nigerian church is a branch of a Californian church by the same name. But the California church says it lost touch with its Nigerian offshoots several years ago.

    "I had no idea," said church elder Carrie King by phone from Tracy, Calif. "I knew people believed in witchcraft over there but we believe in the power of prayer, not physically harming people."

    The Mount Zion Lighthouse – also named by three other families as the accuser of their children – is part of the powerful Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria. The Fellowship's president, Ayo Oritsejafor, said the Fellowship was the fastest-growing religious group in Nigeria, with more than 30 million members.

    "We have grown so much in the past few years we cannot keep an eye on everybody," he explained.

    But Foxcroft, the head of Stepping Stones, said if the organization was able to collect membership fees, it could also police its members better. He had already written to the organization twice to alert it to the abuse, he said. He suggested the fellowship ask members to sign forms denouncing abuse or hold meetings to educate pastors about the new child rights law in the state of Akwa Ibom, which makes it illegal to denounce children as witches. Similar laws and education were needed in other states, he said.

    Sam Itauma of the Children's Rights and Rehabilitation Network said it is the most vulnerable children – the orphaned, sick, disabled or poor – who are most often denounced. In Nwanaokwo's case, his poor father and dead mother made him an easy target.

    "Even churches who didn't use to 'find' child witches are being forced into it by the compe ion," said Itauma. "They are seen as spiritually powerful because they can detect witchcraft and the parents may even pay them money for an exorcism."

    That's what Margaret Eyekang did when her 8-year-old daughter Abigail was accused by a "prophet" from the Apostolic Church, because the girl liked to sleep outside on hot nights – interpreted as meaning she might be flying off to join a coven. A series of exorcisms cost Eyekang eight months' wages, or US$270. The payments bankrupted her.

    Neighbors also attacked her daughter.

    "They beat her with sticks and asked me why I was bringing them a witch child," she said. A relative offered Eyekang floor space but Abigail was not welcome and had to sleep in the streets.

    Members of two other families said pastors from the Apostolic Church had accused their children of witchcraft, but asked not to be named for fear of retaliation.

    The Nigeria Apostolic Church refused repeated requests made by phone, e-mail and in person for comment.

    ___

    At first glance, there's nothing unusual about the laughing, grubby kids playing hopscotch or reading from a tattered and Jane book by the graffiti-scrawled cinderblock house. But this is where children like Abigail end up after being labeled witches by churches and abandoned or tortured by their families.

    There's a scar above Jane's shy smile: her mother tried to saw off the top of her skull after a pastor denounced her and repeated exorcisms costing a total of $60 didn't cure her of witchcraft. Mary, 15, is just beginning to think about boys and how they will look at the scar tissue on her face caused when her mother doused her in caustic soda. Twelve-year-old Rachel dreamed of being a banker but instead was chained up by her pastor, starved and beaten with sticks repeatedly; her uncle paid him $60 for the exorcism.

    Israel's cousin tried to bury him alive, Nwaekwa's father drove a nail through her head, and sweet-tempered Jerry – all knees, elbows and toothy grin – was beaten by his pastor, starved, made to eat cement and then set on fire by his father as his pastor's wife cheered it on.

    The children at the home run by Itauma's organization have been mutilated as casually as the praying mantises they play with. Home officials asked for the children's last names not to be used to protect them from retaliation.

    The home was founded in 2003 with seven children; it now has 120 to 200 at any given time as children are reconciled with their families and new victims arrive.

    Helen Ukpabio is one of the few evangelists publicly linked to the denunciation of child witches. She heads the enormous Liberty Gospel church in Calabar, where Nwanaokwo used to live. Ukpabio makes and distributes popular books and DVDs on witchcraft; in one film, a group of child witches pull out a man's eyeballs. In another book, she advises that 60 percent of the inability to bear children is caused by witchcraft.

    In an interview with the AP, Ukpabio is accompanied by her lawyer, church officials and personal film crew.

    "Witchcraft is real," Ukpabio insisted, before denouncing the physical abuse of children. Ukpabio says she performs non-abusive exorcisms for free and was not aware of or responsible for any misinterpretation of her materials.

    "I don't know about that," she declared.

    However, she then acknowledged that she had seen a pastor from the Apostolic Church break a girl's jaw during an exorcism. Ukpabio said she prayed over her that night and cast out the demon. She did not respond to questions on whether she took the girl to hospital or complained about the injury to church authorities.

    After activists publicly identified Liberty Gospel as denouncing "child witches," armed police arrived at Itauma's home accompanied by a church lawyer. Three children were injured in the fracas. Itauma asked that other churches identified by children not be named to protect their victims.

    "We cannot afford to make enemies of all the churches around here," he said. "But we know the vast majority of them are involved in the abuse even if their headquarters aren't aware."

    Just mentioning the name of a church is enough to frighten a group of bubbly children at the home.

    "Please stop the pastors who hurt us," said Jerry quietly, touching the scars on his face. "I believe in God and God knows I am not a witch."
    AP report via: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_324943.html


    Where are US religious leaders condemning this, and working to stop it?

    If these Christian witch killers did ISIS like videos I'm sure they'd get more notoriety and you'd have US religious leaders condemning them. Your comparison doesn't hold up, US religious leaders don't know what the is going on at Mt Zion Lighthouse is Nigeria.

  3. #3
    GFY I. Hustle's Avatar
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    That stuff is horrible. Disgusting.

  4. #4
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    ing Pentecostals are scary

  5. #5
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    White Christians

  6. #6
    Believe.
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    The Bible require no other provocation than itself.

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    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    People will use religion for their evil purposes. It's just that simple. It doesn't matter if it's the KKK, ISIS, or other groups. It is evil people twisting a reference.

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    Believe. Dirk Oneanddoneski's Avatar
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    Witch burnings, raping babies to cure AIDS, sacrificing albinos, and muti murders in Africa have more to do with the ed up tribal religions black Africans follow than it does with Christianity. Many are religions that go back over 1000 years before any Christian missionaries showed up to spread the word of Jesus. Nelson Mandelas government officially recognizes witchcraft today.

  9. #9
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    If these Christian witch killers did ISIS like videos I'm sure they'd get more notoriety and you'd have US religious leaders condemning them. Your comparison doesn't hold up, US religious leaders don't know what the is going on at Mt Zion Lighthouse is Nigeria.
    US Christian leaders do condemn them. They get as much mainstream news coverage of that condemnation as Moderate Muslim leaders get when they condemn terrorism.

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    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    I can't understand the logic of the comparison without knowing what exactly Muslim leaders are being asked to repudiate and why.

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    Believe.
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    I can't understand the logic of the comparison without knowing what exactly Muslim leaders are being asked to repudiate and why.
    Repudiate the Hadith because it was created by the Ayyubid Caliphate and is the basis of modern jihadi doctrine. Al that about evil people building tall towers, being required to answer the call of Allah to Jihad and the permissions for moral disregard towards 'non-believers' is explicitly laid out in the Hadith.

  12. #12
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    Repudiate the Hadith because it was created by the Ayyubid Caliphate and is the basis of modern jihadi doctrine. Al that about evil people building tall towers, being required to answer the call of Allah to Jihad and the permissions for moral disregard towards 'non-believers' is explicitly laid out in the Hadith.
    You think people like rmt know wtf the Hadith even is? Nobody except people who want be somewhat literate in Islam know what the Hadith is. For real, that can't be what most people want them to reject--the vast majority of most non-Muslims are probably completely ignorant of what the Hadith even is.

    Plus, isn't the Hadith followed to varying degrees by most Muslims? I mean there's lot more in it than jihadist doctrine re. martyrdom, killing infidels etc, right? The Hadith is a major part of being a Muslim for most Muslims. Asking them to repudiate the Hadith would be pretty excessive.

    I just want some clarity here on what you think is "exactly" being asked of Muslim leaders to denounce by most people who ask of such a thing. The "Hadith" just doesn't make much sense.

  13. #13
    Believe.
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    You think people like rmt know wtf the Hadith even is? Nobody except people who want be somewhat literate in Islam know what the Hadith is. For real, that can't be what most people want them to reject--the vast majority of most non-Muslims are probably completely ignorant of what the Hadith even is.

    Plus, isn't the Hadith followed to varying degrees by most Muslims? I mean there's lot more in it than jihadist doctrine re. martyrdom, killing infidels etc, right? The Hadith is a major part of being a Muslim for most Muslims. Asking them to repudiate the Hadith would be pretty excessive.

    I just want some clarity here on what you think is "exactly" being asked of Muslim leaders to denounce by most people who ask of such a thing. The "Hadith" just doesn't make much sense.
    Why do you think I'm bringing it up? I think the Bible having Leviticus Deuteronomy and the other animal sacrifice rituals for absolution as well as Paul's pandering to the Roman's and directives to his underlings is the greatest irony in western culture.

    All Hadith I've read are modeled after Matthew. Islamists are very chameleon. Much like Matthew a roman who went to Jesus' suppers and followed him around writing down what he said, people followed Muhammad around and wrote what he said in response to people asking him questions. The parables from this make up much of Matthew and are one of the few things in the Bible that I actually believe at all from that book. The contrived genealogy and sketch of his early life is obviously made to satisfy the person making a state religion. Constantine might have been converting but not necessarily so his fellow elites throughout the Mediterranean. A outcast wastrel taken in and trained by a shaman who ritually bathed wouldn't sell. King of Kings? Ok Yeah!

    Much like Constantine at the head of his state, the Ayyubid sultanate was not able to maintain social control even with their state religion. They too needed more. The Ottoman's did it. The Roman's did it. Need some warriors? Cook it up. Need to justify your revenge killing? Cook it up. Need to justify slavery? Need to justify subjugation of women? Cook it up.

    Muhammad explicitly says that you are not to speak in his name outside of the Quran in the Quran. He saw what people were doing that were following him around and told them not to do it. Jesus was crucified before he even had a chance to do likewise.

  14. #14
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    The I typed out got ed bec. my phone's been giving me issues. Second time it's happened to me. So I'll just say this:

    There'es more to the basis of the accusative line of questioning done by what I will concede are only or most entirely Christians (because I don't like painting with big paintbrushes, and see no point in really arguing with people who do--feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that OP makes a point of making an example out of them here).

    There's geo-political, ethnic, economic, cultural, historical and geographical things at play here that form the basis of what ultimately is a stupid accusation/question by "them", for sure. But it's not just religious, and for that reason it's a ty comparison the way I see it.
    Last edited by mingus; 12-26-2015 at 11:29 PM.

  15. #15
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Fuzz

    Where would you advise one read to find more on this:


    Muhammad explicitly says that you are not to speak in his name outside of the Quran in the Quran. He saw what people were doing that were following him around and told them not to do it. Jesus was crucified before he even had a chance to do likewise.

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    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    If these Christian witch killers did ISIS like videos I'm sure they'd get more notoriety and you'd have US religious leaders condemning them. Your comparison doesn't hold up, US religious leaders don't know what the is going on at Mt Zion Lighthouse is Nigeria.
    This is the "geography" I was referring to. Not only do they not know "what the is going on" there, that practice isn't relevant here. If Islamic terrorism was only carried out in and Islamic terrorists only lived in Podunk, which also happened to be somewhere China, carried out by poor villagers whose only way of spreading their propoghanda was via mail line or door-to-door (or tent-flap to tent-flap), it'd be comparable.

    Generalizations can be made for a variety reasons. None of them good, it all boils down to ignorance.

    If you wanna show "Christians" that they're being stupid because they generalized based on x,y & z, and that they're also hypocritical because in another instance they don't generalize based on a,b & c, it doesn't work.

  17. #17
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Repudiate the Hadith because it was created by the Ayyubid Caliphate and is the basis of modern jihadi doctrine. Al that about evil people building tall towers, being required to answer the call of Allah to Jihad and the permissions for moral disregard towards 'non-believers' is explicitly laid out in the Hadith.
    It ain't that simple, Doc.

    Calling for the repudiation of Hadith is somewhat akin to calling for Jews to repudiate Halacha -- it's never gonna happen and frankly, your case against Hadith per se, is weak. There's not a single authoritative tradition, but a mul ude. A cursory review of basic info seems to indicate you've simplified matters grossly.

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    It ain't that simple, Doc.

    Calling for the repudiation of Hadith is somewhat akin to calling for Jews to repudiate Halacha -- it's never gonna happen and frankly, your case against Hadith per se, is weak. There's not a single authoritative tradition, but a mul ude. A cursory review of basic info seems to indicate you've simplified matters grossly.
    Does jihadi tradition derive from the Quran or not? If not then its from Hadith as I state. I know you want to hold onto your false prophets.

    The Hadith is so obviously contrived by man as is the rest of your Abrahamic religions. I get that you don't like me because I mock for being figurative outside of Psalms and Proverbs but the god delusion is what it is.

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    Fuzz

    Where would you advise one read to find more on this:


    Muhammad explicitly says that you are not to speak in his name outside of the Quran in the Quran. He saw what people were doing that were following him around and told them not to do it. Jesus was crucified before he even had a chance to do likewise.
    Read the Quran. It says that it is whole and complete and you are not to speak in his word outside of it.

  20. #20
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Does jihadi tradition derive from the Quran or not?
    that's not what you said, and how could it not? you're tilting at a scarecrow...

  21. #21
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Does jihadi tradition derive from the Quran or not? If not then its from Hadith as I state. I know you want to hold onto your false prophets.

    The Hadith is so obviously contrived by man as is the rest of your Abrahamic religions. I get that you don't like me because I mock for being figurative outside of Psalms and Proverbs but the god delusion is what it is.
    WTF are you talking about? You hate religion per se, or something like that?

    Just Abrahamic religions? Anything man-made?

  22. #22
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If these Christian witch killers did ISIS like videos I'm sure they'd get more notoriety and you'd have US religious leaders condemning them. Your comparison doesn't hold up, US religious leaders don't know what the is going on at Mt Zion Lighthouse is Nigeria.
    So you don't have any US Christian leaders condemning this? Why is that? Do they support it?

  23. #23
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    No one here supports that crap.

    That said, I think that many of you all largely believe that things such as witchcraft are simply myths from the past - i.e. non-existent, consigned to fairytaledom...

    If you've never experienced or seen demonic manifestations first hand you probably would have every right to be skeptical.

    When I was 22, I was visiting a church in southern Mexico (in the state of Chiapas) and they brought in a 12 year old boy, who clearly was not 'right'. There were several pastors there and they took him to a separate room and started praying (and asked the rest of us to pray in intercession from the sanctuary)... It was a humid August day, with temperatures exceeding 90°F as early as 8:00 AM every morning - and yet as soon as we begun praying the temperature in the building dropped to the point where you could see ice crystals forming in our exhalations (and no, the building was not equipped with an A/C system and the windows and door themselves were wide open). We were all visibly shaken but this manifestation was clearly "unnatural". After about an hour everyone came out of that room and the boy looked completely restored. There were even scratches on his arms and his face that had visibly disappeared and the color of his skin had warmed up. His parents were VERY grateful with us and wouldn't stop hugging their child. By that time, the towns' folk had gathered around the church in complete and total awe of what had just transpired. We were later told that the little boy had been afflicted for several months before the parents decided to come to the evangelical church for our help. This stuff is very real. You just don't see it in the U.S. as much. And this is not an isolated incident... I've seen similar manifestations on at least 3 other occasions. (Tragically that church was burned down by an indigenous tribe last year and several close brothers in the faith were murdered in the incident).

    The point is... YOU all are skeptical of what you don't understand. What you all don't want to believe out of convenience to your positions/world-perspective. You all constantly forage the forum for continued justification of your general disbelief finding all sorts of articles and discussion points written from the same skeptical perspective to keep fostering and bolstering said position. It's fine... you all are en led to do that. To believe whatever you want.

    To be clear... the Nigerian church is clearly in the wrong here...

    But the question I have is why bring this up with such accusational light against Christianity in general? ("Why aren't any other people - Christians specifically - condemning this???"). The answer is simple. They don't know about it. Because if they did, they would most certainly intercede - despite the religious climate there. It's not easy to venture into Nigeria these days... especially not as a Christian.

    I wonder if RG has seen the videos of 1,000s of Christians (women, children, men, elderly) being brutally beaten and burned alive in Nigeria? Where is his outrage on that front?

    And I ask that simply to present the context that explains why corrective action on part of the church is not something that can happen immediately (given the instability and religious volatility of the country).

    My 2¢

  24. #24
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    Meet the American Pastor Behind Uganda's Anti-Gay Crackdown


    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...gay-law-uganda

    Christian grifter "pastors" enouraging dead gays in Africa. They would do the same in America if Christian Sharia became law.





  25. #25
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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