Fathead Vs. Marco

[Raven]

It's all about fit. Their biggest weakness is a lack of volume three-point shooting (especially against .500 or better teams, on the road). For a team that already was one of the worst in getting to the line and in transition, volume three-point shooting was a crucial element to their explosive offense.

To illustrate the stark contrast, Belinelli has hit 48 so far this season; Anderson, Simmons and Butler have hit 15 combined. Sure, the former has shot it poorly, at .327%, but he's a career .387% shooter and he'd likely be shooting something similar on this team instead of that train wreck of one.

Even if he weren't, he has a strong enough reputation as a shooter spread over 7 seasons, that opposing coaches/defenses are going to base the way they play him more on that, than 2 months and change of him struggling.

Anderson/Simmons garner no such respect. If one makes one every 3-4 games, nobody cares. Neither is a threat to catch fire and bust a game open every once in a while.

except his strong 3 point percentage at the start came strictly from teams not respecting him at all

[Raven]

Yeah and a knockdown shooter, which was clearly what I was referring to. Learn to read, genius.

knockdown shooter

[ceperez]

I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

I was pretty impressed with Butler's early performance. However, PATFO have their reasons for why he's in street clothes. My guess is that, why develop an old guy when you can develop players that you should develop.

[TD 21]

Thing is, his defense doesn't make up for his spot shooting. Never has been. Spurs thought so too.

Considering the fact that he was the fourth wing and received the bi-annual exception, yeah, it did.

Them losing him, was all about not having the money to make even a compe ive offer, after the heavy lifting was completed.

What you say makes sense in theory, but that is it theory.
We are winning in historic fashion, with a historic point differential, and had the best December in franchise history.
In theory we should not be curbstomping teams according to you, in reality we have made a lot of teams look like garbage.

I do wish we had an extra 3 pt shooter in the Steve Kerr mold, doesn't need to play regularly but he's ready to shoot a clutch 3 if you need him, but we already have Mills/Manu/Danny/Kawhi (at a superlative rate). These four are supplemented by occassional 3s by low volume shooters who have a good enough % in Diaw and Tony, and then the other wings (Anderson and Simmons) who will occasionally shoot a 3.

The truth is we are winning on defense quite honestly. The bulk of the scoring in this team is on the stars (Kawhi/LMA/Tony) and there is less reliance on the shooters, like there was previously.

In reality, this is the regular season and they've played the weakest schedule in the league and been one of the healthiest teams in the league, to date.

Besides, we've seen this team rip off torrid regular season stretches/in general before, only to have a glaring issue come back to bite them in the end. Like in '12, when the fringe top 10 defense caught up to them in the WCF.

They more than likely need volume three-point shooting to win the championship, for reasons I've explained. The whole "they look like the old Spurs" talk is partially true, but this is a different era. They're not beating the Thunder and particularly the Warriors, on the road, in the playoffs, scoring in the 80's. That didn't work in '04 and it's damn sure not working in '16.

except his strong 3 point percentage at the start came strictly from teams not respecting him at all

Belinelli? Teams always respected him, the '14 Spurs were just extremely difficult to defend.

[SAGirl]

I was pretty impressed with Butler's early performance. However, PATFO have their reasons for why he's in street clothes. My guess is that, why develop an old guy when you can develop players that you should develop.

I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

Yea, Butler can still play. He played well at the beginning of the season, and every time Pop dusts him off and lets him get a work out with the young guys, he plays well. I remember reading an interview his agent gave mentioning that precisely Butler was signed as a camp tryout because of his 3 pt shooting ability, but also to mentor the young wings. (And they wouldn't say so, but possibly as an insurance in case Simmons fizzed out and Anderson was less ready than he's turned out.)
We just haven't needed him per se.

[dabom]

Considering the fact that he was the fourth wing and received the bi-annual exception, yeah, it did.

Them losing him, was all about not having the money to make even a compe ive offer, after the heavy lifting was completed.




In reality, this is the regular season and they've played the weakest schedule in the league and been one of the healthiest teams in the league, to date.

Besides, we've seen this team rip off torrid regular season stretches/in general before, only to have a glaring issue come back to bite them in the end. Like in '12, when the fringe top 10 defense caught up to them in the WCF.

They more than likely need volume three-point shooting to win the championship, for reasons I've explained. The whole "they look like the old Spurs" talk is partially true, but this is a different era. They're not beating the Thunder and particularly the Warriors, on the road, in the playoffs, scoring in the 80's. That didn't work in '04 and it's damn sure not working in '16.



Belinelli? Teams always respected him, the '14 Spurs were just extremely difficult to defend.

Spurs keep the players they want. The whole money thing was just what you ate up. Sorry. He's not a Spurs and the Spurs become historically great defensively. Not that both those things are a big part but it is a small part though.

[TD 21]

Spurs keep the players they want. The whole money thing was just what you ate up. Sorry. He's not a Spurs and the Spurs become historically great defensively. Not that both those things are a big part but it is a small part though.

I thought you were just trolling, like usual, but it's clear you just don't get it.

Obviously, they were always going to prioritize their top eight (save for the Aldridge for Splitter upgrade) over their ninth man, but that's not the same as them not wanting him.

[dabom]

I thought you were just trolling, like usual, but it's clear you just don't get it.

Obviously, they were always going to prioritize their top eight (save for the Aldridge for Splitter upgrade) over their ninth man, but that's not the same as them not wanting him.

Letting go of someone is saying they don't value what you bring to the table for your cost. Cost/benefit wasn't there. Hence let go.

[SAGirl]

But, they have shooters, you are acting like they don't.
If the rest of your 9 man rotation is not going to get it done, you are not going to expect your 4th wing to save you.
At this point, Kawhi has ascended so stratospherically high that if you need a 3 pt shot, he should be the one taking it.

[bklynspursfan]

Again, RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. He is being exposed b/c Tim/Kawhi/Danny aren't there to bail him out.

Regardless at this point, I'd take Marco over KA. Marco won us several games when we're decimated with injruries. KA doesn't have that ability yet and his confidence isn't there yet. Too unsure of himself at times, bad decisions with the ball, etc... he's too inconsistent to choose over someone like Marco

[SAGirl]

Regardless at this point, I'd take Marco over KA. Marco won us several games when we're decimated with injruries. KA doesn't have that ability yet and his confidence isn't there yet. Too unsure of himself at times, bad decisions with the ball, etc... he's too inconsistent to choose over someone like Marco

You might be right as it is right now. Current state of affairs, KA is not a part of the regular rotation, which Marco was a big part of (even if you had to bench him playoff games or what not, he was a rotation player). ElNono was right in that we could not afford him.

I had a point that instead of going for another guy somewhat like him, a shooter with no D, the Spurs chose to go after guys who have defensive upside. They are not ready to contribute much at this point but we'll see.

It is possible a trade could still be worked out to get a shooter if it is needed. Since we have such a winning record and are still blowing teams out, it would not seem that it is such a huge need.

[ElNono]

I don't know exactly what's the cap situation right now, but I'm not sure the Spurs really have much wiggle room for a trade... Kyle, Simmons, Butler, Bonner, McCollum, Boban are all on cheap, cheap contracts IIRC...

I don't think the Spurs want to part ways with players like Mills or Diaw that have better value...

[sasaint]

Yea, Butler can still play. He played well at the beginning of the season, and every time Pop dusts him off and lets him get a work out with the young guys, he plays well. I remember reading an interview his agent gave mentioning that precisely Butler was signed as a camp tryout because of his 3 pt shooting ability, but also to mentor the young wings. (And they wouldn't say so, but possibly as an insurance in case Simmons fizzed out and Anderson was less ready than he's turned out.)
We just haven't needed him per se.

We are enjoying a unique, blessed stretch. We are winning AND developing young talent. The best of both worlds.

Butler was brought in as an insurance policy. Insurance is always best when you have no need to resort to it.

[sasaint]

I don't know exactly what's the cap situation right now, but I'm not sure the Spurs really have much wiggle room for a trade... Kyle, Simmons, Butler, Bonner, McCollum, Boban are all on cheap, cheap contracts IIRC...

I don't think the Spurs want to part ways with players like Mills or Diaw that have better value...

I believe most of our roster is untouchable for one reason or another. I cannot see us trading Timmy, Tony, Manu, Kawhi, LMA, Boris, DWest, Patty, Boban, Kyle or Simmons, or possibly Bonner. That leaves McCallum and Butler. No trade value there, really, unless it is for a player from a tanker. We are going to go with the guys we got, unless somebody we want is bought out.

[SAGirl]

I don't know exactly what's the cap situation right now, but I'm not sure the Spurs really have much wiggle room for a trade... Kyle, Simmons, Butler, Bonner, McCollum, Boban are all on cheap, cheap contracts IIRC...

I don't think the Spurs want to part ways with players like Mills or Diaw that have better value...

I believe most of our roster is untouchable for one reason or another. I cannot see us trading Timmy, Tony, Manu, Kawhi, LMA, Boris, DWest, Patty, Boban, Kyle or Simmons, or possibly Bonner. That leaves McCallum and Butler. No trade value there, really, unless it is for a player from a tanker. We are going to go with the guys we got, unless somebody we want is bought out.

Yea I don't see a trade happening either. The guys you could spare are Ray/Butler/Bonner. They rarely play and are insurance of some kind or another. If we had a PG injury we'd need Ray, so we are lucky we haven't needed him, but that is not the same as saying we could spare him.

Bonner/Butler are really the ones you can spare and they don't have much trade value. They are good enough for their roles. We are not going to get significantly better in a trade for them.

Probably the most interesting guy we could trade would be Anderson bc he's younger and still on a rookie deal, but Pop is not playing him much so I don't think he has as much trade value for other teams and he's really an acquired taste with a kind of niche market and won't pass the eye test for any GM. And I think Pop wants still to see him develop and see what he has in him. I could see him traded next season though, while he's still in his 3rd year, particularly if he starts to play really well and getting minutes for him becomes a problem bc he's playing behind Kawhi. At that point, if another team likes him, we could get someone to reinforce our backcourt. That is still way ahead in the future, doesn't help us this season, and depends on him getting better, which he will need minutes for.

[sasaint]

Yea I don't see a trade happening either. The guys you could spare are Ray/Butler/Bonner. They rarely play and are insurance of some kind or another. If we had a PG injury we'd need Ray, so we are lucky we haven't needed him, but that is not the same as saying we could spare him.

Bonner/Butler are really the ones you can spare and they don't have much trade value. They are good enough for their roles. We are not going to get significantly better in a trade for them.

Probably the most interesting guy we could trade would be Anderson bc he's younger and still on a rookie deal, but Pop is not playing him much so I don't think he has as much trade value for other teams and he's really an acquired taste with a kind of niche market and won't pass the eye test for any GM. And I think Pop wants still to see him develop and see what he has in him. I could see him traded next season though, while he's still in his 3rd year, particularly if he starts to play really well and getting minutes for him becomes a problem bc he's playing behind Kawhi. At that point, if another team likes him, we could get someone to reinforce our backcourt. That is still way ahead in the future, doesn't help us this season, and depends on him getting better, which he will need minutes for.

I have not heard Pop comment on Kyle in a long time, but I do not believe he is ready to move on from him yet. I think he still sees too much "Spurs" potential. Who knows, maybe Kyle's presence is what has lit a fire under Boris this season.

Your argument about needing to show more to build his trade value is an argument that kind of cuts both ways. If he improves so much we could get real value for him, wouldn't he be good enough to be a significant contributor for us?

Trade Bonner? Seriously? Trade BONNER?! Not happening even if we could get value in return. No, we are going to play this hand.

[SAGirl]

I have not heard Pop comment on Kyle in a long time, but I do not believe he is ready to move on from him yet. I think he still sees too much "Spurs" potential. Who knows, maybe Kyle's presence is what has lit a fire under Boris this season.

Your argument about needing to show more to build his trade value is an argument that kind of cuts both ways. If he improves so much we could get real value for him, wouldn't he be good enough to be a significant contributor for us?

Trade Bonner? Seriously? Trade BONNER?! Not happening even if we could get value in return. No, we are going to play this hand.

Yea we don't know where Kyle stands with Pop per se, but he's played well. I can't think he's in the doghouse, much more than just probably needing to gain confidence in his game and in his shots out there. He's just in general been more aggressive lately than he was initially and should continue to get better. A year from now, who knows?

[kaji157]

Yea we don't know where Kyle stands with Pop per se, but he's played well. I can't think he's in the doghouse, much more than just probably needing to gain confidence in his game and in his shots out there. He's just in general been more aggressive lately than he was initially and should continue to get better. A year from now, who knows?

As of now Kyle Anderson is the only Spurs player that can do some of the things Ginobili can do.

I think he has a place here, and his job right now is to learn, so he is learning.

Pop doesnt have a problem with him, but for the very limited role he will have this year, he will play Simmons now to see if he can play him, over Anderson who Pop already knows what to expect.

I think we have to wait to see if Anderson plays over Simmons, because as of now Simmons needs the minutes more than Anderson.

PS: Its the same situation between Bonner and Boban, while i agree Boban is a better player, you could make the case as if who of him and bonner wil have the 13th spot, well as of now it looks like boban gets more PT than the red mamba, but it coul be argued that this is because Boban needs the playing time while Boner already knoes the plays and system.

[Obstructed_View]

I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

He wasn't even there to mentor, he was just a stopgap until Aldridge came around enough to allow them to give minutes to Simmons and BT. Pop needed corporate knowledge early on, and the surprisingly stout defense probably sped the process along faster than anyone anticipated.

[Obstructed_View]

Yea we don't know where Kyle stands with Pop per se, but he's played well. I can't think he's in the doghouse, much more than just probably needing to gain confidence in his game and in his shots out there. He's just in general been more aggressive lately than he was initially and should continue to get better. A year from now, who knows?

Good point. I think he's the heir to the sixth man role in SA.

[100%duncan]

TD21 its not like we dont have enough shooters imho its just that making the 2 is much easier for this team with the new guys (west lma simmons). And we have seen that this team can ring it up offensively when needed like last game and against the clippers. Although I agree that Marco would have been a good fit with this new team, I cant complain due to the historic defense and losing marco is certainly a big part of that. Having a volume 3pt shooter wouldve been great, not necessary, and besides what did we have left to offer and who was left from the field?

[SAGirl]

TD21 its not like we dont have enough shooters imho its just that making the 2 is much easier for this team with the new guys (west lma simmons). And we have seen that this team can ring it up offensively when needed like last game and against the clippers. Although I agree that Marco would have been a good fit with this new team, I cant complain due to the historic defense and losing marco is certainly a big part of that. Having a volume 3pt shooter wouldve been great, not necessary, and besides what did we have left to offer and who was left from the field?

Jimmer and oh wait! That's it. I am in Raven' s camp, I'd still not take Marco even if we could afford him, but obviously my take is debatable. Other guys would still take him over Anderson/Simmons and they have a valid point. For me though bc of his lack of defense Marco is nor a guy to build around if you don't have Manu and we are winning now while hopefully developing some guys who have upside and can help us win games on both ends when Manu hangs it up. I prefer those guys even if they are not lighting it up.

All things considered I think Pop would have gone with ElNono, kept Marco played him and we'd be right back in 2014-15 when we lost a lot of games against ty teams we had no business loosing.

[100%duncan]

I always thought butler was the mini marco replacement but he's been out of the rotation for quite a while now.

[SAGirl]

I always thought butler was the mini marco replacement but he's been out of the rotation for quite a while now.

I think even if the other two guys can't offer Butler's shooting, Pop is really high on both. Not only giving all these opportunities to Simmons, but not sending Kyle back to the dleague with Ray and leaving Butler as your 14th guy in the bench tells you Pop cares very much about their development. There is no guarantee we have Manu next year and we can only add a modest free agent and will probably need to pay Boban and such. Our growth as a team for next year has to come mostly internally.

[apalisoc_9]

This team def needs a little bit more three point juice. Patty Mills and Danny Green are essentially the only volume three pointers this team have. Kawhi and Manu are not natural three pointers even if the former is the best in the league.

The issue with having only Mills and Green is that both of them play their minutes seperatly majority of the time so that leaves most of the rotation with only one shooter. If one isnt hitting it, then there is really no alternative for the specific rotation.

Both Kawhi and Manu demand enough respect from the three point line but they are a much more versatile scorer.

Can the spurs win without another one, yeah...but it would make life easier for them against the warriors if they add another one.