Game Grades - Cavs @ Spurs - 1/14/16

[Cry Havoc]

I mentioned this in the game thread, and I hate to repeat, but I don't want anyone calling me a Danny-hater. I was at the first pre-season game he played in, and I was a supporter from the beginning. The roster was pretty full, and I didn't know if he would get a shot, but I hoped that he would. I've been a supporter ever since.

But now, not only is he shooting poorly, he's getting hesitant. They always talk about a "shooter's mentality", and a lot of that is always believing that the next shot is going to fall. I can't see inside his head, but he sure looks like he doesn't believe that anymore. He's passing up shots, and only taking them when it looks like he doesn't have any choice. Add to that the fact that he almost never misses after the play has been blown dead, and it sure looks like it's his head that is broken, not his stroke. The stroke is a lot easier to fix.

Worse, it's starting to look like he's getting hesitant on the defensive end. I hate to make those kinds of judgments based on a few plays, but that's what it looks like. And it's easy to see how a guy who is second guessing himself on one end could start doing it on the other.

I'm sure Pop is on top of it a lot more than any of us could be. Coming out of halftime last night, Pop came out with a play designed to get Danny an open 3-pointer. I thought it was good for Pop to try and show some confidence in Danny. He pulled it down and went in for a mid-range jumper instead, which he tanked. Duncan got the rebound, fed it back to Danny at the 3P line, and he bricked that one, too. I don't know what it would do to Danny's confidence to be taken out of the starting lineup, but it seems like that part, at least, couldn't get much worse.

There's no doubt that Danny would be a defensive terror against second team players. But in general, you have to think that it's the opponents' starting lineups that are doing the most damage. Simmons has proven that he belongs in the NBA now, but he's still inexperienced. I have to wonder if Pop would start Manu for a game, just to get a feel for things, because Manu has seen just about everything.

I'm usually against screwing with chemistry, and this Spurs team definitely has that. I think Pop may give Danny "a night off" like other players, and experiment. But I don't see him making a change unless he thinks that it would take some pressure off Danny and give him a chance to get some confidence back.

Really good take. Danny at this point has to be considered a smaller version of Bowen, honestly. He's going to get 3s and shut his man down and that's literally all you can expect from him. The quintessential 3 & D player. We were hoping he would be so much more than that, and I have to hope we're all wrong, but it looks like that's his ceiling right now. Right now he isn't doing the former, so the latter must maintain it's value.

I think putting Simmons in the starting 5 would be really rough. Parker Kawhi Duncan and LMA... either Simmons is going to try to "prove himself" and take some shots that are ill-advised when there are better options on the floor, or he's going to sit back and let the big boys do their damage. He would have to play marvelously to be an overall positive to that setup. If they were going to bench Green, playing Manu would make more sense. Although when our bench is this good, do you want to tool around with the chemistry?

I really do like Simmons and I have a feeling other that teams are going to be evaling him for a contact soon, if they aren't already. He has shown a lot of fire and skill along with some to-be-expected questionable decision making. And of course you have to wonder how much of his impact is simply because our bench is so loaded that other teams can't focus on any singular man off the pine.

[wildbill2u]

There are two types of player personalities. One takes a demotion from starting (or a drop in the rotation) as a challenge and works harder to regain their position (Mills, Anderson I think). The other can't handle the demotion well and gets further depressed about his game. I'm afraid that Green is in the second group.

[sasaint]

As bad as that game looked for the Spurs, and as loudly as people screamed about their terrible play:

The Spurs outplayed the best team in the East, and the Best player in the game in nearly every stat.

Total Rebounds
Offensive Rebounds
Turnovers
Fast Break Points
Points in the Paint
Assists
Steals
Turnovers
Blocked Shots
Personal fouls committed
They tied the Cavs in Defensive Rebounds, and had an insignificant deficit in FG% (38-82 Spurs vs 38-83 Cavs).

Bottom line, even after that disastrous start, the Spurs outplayed the Cavs top to bottom. The only two areas that the Cavs were better were 3P% and FTA - the Cavs went to the line 22 times, compared to 11 for the Spurs, even though Cleveland committed significantly more fouls. Danny shot the 3 badly, Tony was worse, and Manu was worse than that. That needs to improve.

The rest of the effort just said that Cleveland is a pretty damn good team, but the Spurs are better.

There you go again with that rationality.


()

[GSH]

There seems to some some sort of belief that LMA folds in big games, couldn't be further from the truth. Cavs made it a game plan to double him, as you can see in the second half when he got Kawhi an open 3, and they stuck with him on Pick and pops. By doing that, Tony went to the rack at will.

After the Spurs signed Aldridge, there was a lot of discussion about whether there were going to be enough shots for everyone. How would they get LMA enough touches to keep him happy, etc? I said then that this team is going to have the luxury of taking what the defense gives, on any given night. Teams are going to come out with a game plan of taking away whoever looks hot lately. The others will be more than happy to feast when that happens. The only big surprise is that I thought Tim would have more solid outings as a result, and it hasn't gone that way. I hope last night gave him a taste of just how much this team still needs him, and he digs into whatever zone he was in last season.

But, yeah, the versatility of this team says that you can't take away everything. And the one(s) you help off of are going to light you up. They all benefit from each other.

As much wondrous stuff as Kawhi can do, he really isn't a good ball handler in traffic IMO. Most of his TOs (4) came from mishandling the ball and one really bad pass down the stretch. I think he's yet to understand how the other teams will collapse on him and double him when he tries to go into the paint from outside. He's no Parker or Manu on the dribble. But he can do so much already with his post up and outside shots.

I think he needs to learn to pick the ball up and cradle it like a football player, the way Manu has always done, and use his length and athleticism to use those last two LONG steps to get him all the way to the rim. He's running into traffic, and they are picking him apart. I think he's got the physical strength and springs to use their ball-hawking against them. Their hand-slaps aren't enough to keep him from bulling his way to the basket - AND he will draw a lot more whistles. My opinion, that's the one big thing missing from his game.

[sasaint]

There are two types of player personalities. One takes a demotion from starting (or a drop in the rotation) as a challenge and works harder to regain their position (Mills, Anderson I think). The other can't handle the demotion well and gets further depressed about his game. I'm afraid that Green is in the second group.

I tend to agree with your view. BUT that is in contrast to what evidence we have. The guy fought hard and worked hard on his game and persevered in making it into the NBA, when he had been waived numerous times. So he seems to actually rise to a challenge.

[GSH]

There are two types of player personalities. One takes a demotion from starting (or a drop in the rotation) as a challenge and works harder to regain their position (Mills, Anderson I think). The other can't handle the demotion well and gets further depressed about his game. I'm afraid that Green is in the second group.

I tend to agree with your view. BUT that is in contrast to what evidence we have. The guy fought hard and worked hard on his game and persevered in making it into the NBA, when he had been waived numerous times. So he seems to actually rise to a challenge.

Unfortunately, I think Willbill may be right. But that's why Pop gets paid the big bucks, and I get to watch the games from a distance.

[spurraider21]

There are two types of player personalities. One takes a demotion from starting (or a drop in the rotation) as a challenge and works harder to regain their position (Mills, Anderson I think). The other can't handle the demotion well and gets further depressed about his game. I'm afraid that Green is in the second group.

Green was cut by the spurs a couple of times and worked harder as a result.

[Galileo]

The NBA wasn't around yet in the 19th century.

That's not the point.

[sasaint]

I think he needs to learn to pick the ball up and cradle it like a football player, the way Manu has always done, and use his length and athleticism to use those last two LONG steps to get him all the way to the rim. He's running into traffic, and they are picking him apart. I think he's got the physical strength and springs to use their ball-hawking against them. Their hand-slaps aren't enough to keep him from bulling his way to the basket - AND he will draw a lot more whistles. My opinion, that's the one big thing missing from his game.

I definitely agree that he needs to learn that "fullback" technique Manu uses. But there are times when he needs to just pull up hIs dribble and pass the ball when he sees the double-team coming. To my eyes, as good as he already is, he seems to grow still AND VISIBLY. He will gain the experience and vision to make better decisions in those situations - maybe by next game! Of all the accolades Kawhi receives, he does not receive enough credit for his considerable BBIQ.

[bdictjames]

Freaking loved the pictures lol.

[itzsoweezee]

Green was cut by the spurs a couple of times and worked harder as a result.

Exactly. He is definitely a mentally tough dude. The guy has consistently come through in the most pressure-filled situations an NBA player can face. A rough time in the regular season doesn't change all that. No reason to go all chicken little about Danny.

[RD2191]

Thanks for the grades, got.

[sasaint]

Game Summary[/B]

If you missed the Cavs play the Spurs on Thursday night (TNT), you missed a very entertaining battle between two very intense, playoff focused teams with eyes on hoisting a trophy at the end of the season. At times it was less than stellar on offense, but defensively, both squads threw down and put forth some of the highest degree of effort seen all season in the NBA. Nearly every single play showcased a hard fought battle between 10 guys on the court that were in constant motion, and easy buckets were very difficult to come by.

Danny Green - F

It's officially worry time for Danny Green. He shot 1-7 from the field, and looked incredibly uncomfortable whenever he touched the rock all night. He is usually a pest on defense, but tonight got burned repeatedly and seemed to think JR Smith was a man you should leave open even after he hits his first 3. Green easily put in one of the worst performances of the season on a night when the Spurs could have desperately used his defense and 3 point shooting, of which he had repeated wide open shots from deep. As far as these ratings are concerned, Green has unofficially lost his Spurs jersey until he shows improvement.

I am amazed and grateful for the time and effort you put into game grades. You have some very good takes, and I do think you manage to hit the "sweet spot." But your assessment of Danny and the photo of him in the Cleveland jersey are tops! Thank you for a great effort and result!

[ElNono]

great job CH

[travis2]

As bad as that game looked for the Spurs, and as loudly as people screamed about their terrible play:

The Spurs outplayed the best team in the East, and the Best player in the game in nearly every stat.

Total Rebounds
Offensive Rebounds
Turnovers
Fast Break Points
Points in the Paint
Assists
Steals
Turnovers
Blocked Shots
Personal fouls committed
They tied the Cavs in Defensive Rebounds, and had an insignificant deficit in FG% (38-82 Spurs vs 38-83 Cavs).

Bottom line, even after that disastrous start, the Spurs outplayed the Cavs top to bottom. The only two areas that the Cavs were better were 3P% and FTA - the Cavs went to the line 22 times, compared to 11 for the Spurs, even though Cleveland committed significantly more fouls. Danny shot the 3 badly, Tony was worse, and Manu was worse than that. That needs to improve.

The rest of the effort just said that Cleveland is a pretty damn good team, but the Spurs are better.

Bolded part is backwards...Spurs shot 22 FTs, making 18. Cavs shot 11, making 9. Otherwise, nice post.

[SAGirl]

Regarding Bobo/Patty, I will say that I was intentionally being a bit generous due to the fact that they never really had a chance to be in rhythm because they didn't play much. .

I have to point out our bench outscored their bench, 35-12. As always, bench performance is a huge factor with this current Spurs team. When our bench doesn't come through, games become a real uphill battle. In a game where Bobo and Patty underachieved, combined with the poor games from LMA/Tim/Danny offensively I don't even know what to tell you the odds would have been of us coming away with this win, particularly when we didn't make many 3s. All of this puts into context contributions from Tony (great play both ends), Kawhi all around game, TD/Manu clutchness, LMA key rebound + FT, D.West toughness and leadership stand out.

Finally, the unheralded contributors: quality minutes from Simmons/Anderson. We made short runs with each guy on the floor bc they were solid on defense, rebounds + very efficient buckets from each. We needed that this game. I can't help but notice that when they were there we settled down for a little bit and ran some plays for some other guys. Whether it was bc they are new, or they were just going to be careful not to be turning the ball over, the controlled game they played allowed everyone else to do their jobs. D.West and Tony efficiently scoring in those stretches was a huge factor in making a run, but it would not have mattered if these guys had not played a solid/controlled game.

[travis2]

Yes, there were errors made here and there, but overall that is the kind of play that will give any team problems, even the Dubs. I can only imagine Curry trying to get free with Green and Leonard hounding him over PnRs. I don't think Curry is fast enough to beat the length we have if we're locked in... although that shot is so, so fast to go up.

This is the only thing that concerns me about GS, and especially Curry. Our cover guys absolutely can NOT go under screens with Curry...that ball will be gone before the cover even clears the screen. OTOH, with the cover coming over the top, the Spurs big will have to hedge hard to keep the shot off...but can he get back to his man in time? Switching is a non-starter as well.

Nice thread you started here.

[Cry Havoc]

I am amazed and grateful for the time and effort you put into game grades. You have some very good takes, and I do think you manage to hit the "sweet spot." But your assessment of Danny and the photo of him in the Cleveland jersey are tops! Thank you for a great effort and result!

I'm surprised no one has commented on the photo of Kawhi yet, tbh I thought it was even more fitting.

[sasaint]

I'm surprised no one has commented on the photo of Kawhi yet, tbh I thought it was even more fitting.

It was the second best. But I have this thing about the word "King" ever since LeBron crowned himself "King James." I know what you were doing with the jersey. I prefer the accolade "Kingslayer," if we have to go there, so it's too bad that there isn't a jersey like that. But good photo anyway, and great post. Again, thanks.

[SAGirl]

I have to wonder if Pop would start Manu for a game, just to get a feel for things, because Manu has seen just about everything.

I'm usually against screwing with chemistry, and this Spurs team definitely has that. I think Pop may give Danny "a night off" like other players, and experiment. But I don't see him making a change unless he thinks that it would take some pressure off Danny and give him a chance to get some confidence back.

I just cannot envision Pop starting Manu. He's the leader/PG in the bench. Patty/Simmons/Danny are not going to cut it in the bench perimeter rotation offensively. If you are against starting Simmons, I don't see how how you can be in favor of handing basically the keys to the bench to him. I think the starting role is actually more limited and defined than what Manu does for the bench.

If you really wanted to experiment with sending Danny to the bench the answer is to start Simmons and give him 5 minutes to start each half, switched with Danny.

I will be honest with you. I don't see it. Danny is not a good fit with the bench. From your 4 wings other than Manu, he's been the worst statistically, having the only negative net impact for a wing in the bench. Yes, even over much maligned Anderson, who was very hesitant and passive early in the season. Anderson is a current net positive in the bench as well, and he's lately been aggressive and he's making shots.

But for experiment's sake, if you wanted to switch Danny to the bench the answer is to start Simmons for a few games and see how it goes for Danny.

Last game I really lost my patience with Danny bc he's a guy who frankly right now everyone says "oh his defense is still great" but it hasn't been aside of a few spectacular games like he had against the Knicks. This particular game he was terrible in the 1st Q, a reason why Cleveland got hot. In the second half, he started with allowing J.R Smith to go on backcut. That is unacceptable. He was switched with Simmons, who did a better job staying glued to JR Smith. Pop got Danny back in the game, and he was much better to close out the game, but when he has consecutive defensive lapses on top of not making his shots and looking scared out there... I really lost my sympathy for him last night.

I have cooled down now, I just don't see how sending him to the bench is going to help him.

[sasaint]

I have to point out our bench outscored their bench, 35-12. As always, bench performance is a huge factor with this current Spurs team. When our bench doesn't come through, games become a real uphill battle. In a game where Bobo and Patty underachieved, combined with the poor games from LMA/Tim/Danny offensively I don't even know what to tell you the odds would have been of us coming away with this win, particularly when we didn't make many 3s. All of this puts into context contributions from Tony (great play both ends), Kawhi all around game, TD/Manu clutchness, LMA key rebound + FT, D.West toughness and leadership stand out.

Finally, the unheralded contributors: quality minutes from Simmons/Anderson. We made short runs with each guy on the floor bc they were solid on defense, rebounds + very efficient buckets from each. We needed that this game. I can't help but notice that when they were there we settled down for a little bit and ran some plays for some other guys. Whether it was bc they are new, or they were just going to be careful not to be turning the ball over, the controlled game they played allowed everyone else to do their jobs. D.West and Tony efficiently scoring in those stretches was a huge factor in making a run, but it would not have mattered if these guys had not played a solid/controlled game.

Frankly, if you examine the Spurs' box score, it is fairly unbelievable that we won the game. It ain't all Spurs' misfires, of course. Our opponent had something to do with the pedestrian box score. But it is hard to believe and very gratifying to behold that with several of our big guns (including BOTH Timmy and LMA ) misfiring, we still beat a team like Cleveland.

[SAGirl]

There are two types of player personalities. One takes a demotion from starting (or a drop in the rotation) as a challenge and works harder to regain their position (Mills, Anderson I think). The other can't handle the demotion well and gets further depressed about his game. I'm afraid that Green is in the second group.

Definitely I count Anderson as a guy who is mentally tough.
He really has been playing much more aggressively since Simmons was promoted, seems motivated to still make good use of his own opportunities, and I still see him very enthusiastic for the team as whole, Simmons included.
He's also taken his own share of tongue lashings from Pop for his defensive mistakes and keeps fighting to get better.
I have to think somehow a guy that slow has built up a thick skin and an internal motivation to " on everyone" who said he wasn't going to be able to play on the NBA.

This is just based on what I have seen this season (his college career and dleague/SL stints aside, and he showed leadership in those). Definitely one of the reasons I am high on this young man (Anderson) is that I think he has intangibles that will show up for us hopefully more as he develops his game.

[ceperez]

I just cannot envision Pop starting Manu. He's the leader/PG in the bench. Patty/Simmons/Danny are not going to cut it in the bench perimeter rotation offensively. If you are against starting Simmons, I don't see how how you can be in favor of handing basically the keys to the bench to him. I think the starting role is actually more limited and defined than what Manu does for the bench.

If you really wanted to experiment with sending Danny to the bench the answer is to start Simmons and give him 5 minutes to start each half, switched with Danny.

I will be honest with you. I don't see it. Danny is not a good fit with the bench. From your 4 wings other than Manu, he's been the worst statistically, having the only negative net impact for a wing in the bench. Yes, even over much maligned Anderson, who was very hesitant and passive early in the season. Anderson is a current net positive in the bench as well, and he's lately been aggressive and he's making shots.

But for experiment's sake, if you wanted to switch Danny to the bench the answer is to start Simmons for a few games and see how it goes for Danny.

Last game I really lost my patience with Danny bc he's a guy who frankly right now everyone says "oh his defense is still great" but it hasn't been aside of a few spectacular games like he had against the Knicks. This particular game he was terrible in the 1st Q, a reason why Cleveland got hot. In the second half, he started with allowing J.R Smith to go on backcut. That is unacceptable. He was switched with Simmons, who did a better job staying glued to JR Smith. Pop got Danny back in the game, and he was much better to close out the game, but when he has consecutive defensive lapses on top of not making his shots and looking scared out there... I really lost my sympathy for him last night.

I have cooled down now, I just don't see how sending him to the bench is going to help him.

I agree. Danny with the bench will mess up the motion offense.

[littlecoyotecoin]

How about that KA boxout of Mozgov, last night, SAgirl? He had a really good boxout against someone else, recently, too. Who was it? Rebounding, decent defense, and knocking down a shot last night. Doing well in his limited minutes.

[SAGirl]

How about that KA boxout of Mozgov, last night, SAgirl? He had a really good boxout against someone else, recently, too. Who was it? Rebounding, decent defense, and knocking down a shot last night. Doing well in his limited minutes.

Yup. He fights. He's a lightweight for a 4, but he boxes out. He just has solid fundamentals, and Pop is only going to make him better. Early in the season, when Pop benched Bobo against the Grizzlies... remember that game? He had two clutch jump shots and assist to Tim.. He was subbed him as a stretch 4 for Bobo. The buckets and the assist were impressive, but what showed me character was one sequence where on a PnR Tim had to help out contain Chalmers, and Kyle got in position to "try" to box out Gasol. He wasn't going to be successful in that endeavor obviously, but it was his role as he was the "4". He got his hand on the ball and was wrestling with Gasol for it, when the shot clock buzzed and it was a shot clock violation. I don't know if anyone will remember that.

Many people are sleeping on his kid. He looks lackadaisical at times, so deliberate and all, but he's not. It takes grit to do what he does.