Danny Green has made himself expendable.

[Chinook]

You can sit Green against any other team if you want, but you don't sit him against GS. He was worth his weight just by not being Simmons on D.

[ElNono]

You can sit Green against any other team if you want, but you don't sit him against GS. He was worth his weight just by not being Simmons on D.

I don't care Simmons making mistakes these particular games. That's part of growing up playing against much better compe ion.
I'm with Pop that I liked his aggressiveness and activity much more than anybody else on the team last night.

Again, in a vacuum, that doesn't make him better than Danny.

The thing with Sims though is that he isn't the young Jax kind of guy that just takes the bull by the balls and just elevates everything at a given time. He's aiming to please right now, and so he would need a longer leash if he were to get a more prominent role.

[skulls138]

Yeh the Bulls are gonna get rid of their best player for DG...

He did say "and a pick". That makes all the difference.

[Chinook]

I don't care Simmons making mistakes these particular games. That's part of growing up playing against much better compe ion.
I'm with Pop that I liked his aggressiveness and activity much more than anybody else on the team last night.

Again, in a vacuum, that doesn't make him better than Danny.

The thing with Sims though is that he isn't the young Jax kind of guy that just takes the bull by the balls and just elevates everything at a given time. He's aiming to please right now, and so he would need a longer leash if he were to get a more prominent role.

Understandable, and that makes sense against the other 28 teams (I guess 27 since OKC is there with GS). But Danny is so necessary against the Warriors that it's not even funny. He's not just a better player in general than Simmons -- he was better last night. Aggressive or not, Simmons just isn't a very good defender. And he's a bad offensive play against the Warriors because he's a turnover machine against any pressure. And that comes from him not being very good at dribbling, not from him "making mistakes".

[ElNono]

Understandable, and that makes sense against the other 28 teams (I guess 27 since OKC is there with GS). But Danny is so necessary against the Warriors that it's not even funny. He's not just a better player in general than Simmons -- he was better last night. Aggressive or not, Simmons just isn't a very good defender. And he's a bad offensive play against the Warriors because he's a turnover machine against any pressure. And that comes from him not being very good at dribbling, not from him "making mistakes".

I think that's far from settled. On defense, I would take Danny any time of the day. But with other factors at play on offense (mostly inability to penetrate), starting Sims or even Manu might make more sense. Plus Danny has exactly the same problems with his handles under pressure, doesn't have the quick first step, and sometimes screws up not even trying to dribble the ball. So that's still an upgrade in that department, IMO.

[Chomag]

Got to admit that he hasnt been the same player ever since he got his contract. Its pretty worrisome.

[midnightpulp]

I mean, you can keep saying that all you want, but it's not going to become more true. Jimmer is a d-league talent. He literally lacks the natural skill to play in the league. Not being able to dribble well doesn't take away shooting and ALL OF THE ASPECTS of defense that you're trying to boil down into one "skill".

Is he going to develop into a significantly better player? No. But that didn't stop him from being one of the top 50-70 players in the whole league last year and the year before that. And that's no where near "d-league talent".

In terms of natural talent, Danny is very much D-league. It's why guys like him and Bowen typically bounce around as journeymen, European pro ball, etc. Danny can't dribble, can't finish, and can't play-make, so his only utility is as a spot up shooter and defender, skills that can be learned through hard work and game study. Guys like Danny and Bowen are actually examples of how far hard work can get you as a pro athlete, and both found the right environment that is the best in pro sports at maximizing a player's skillset.

Don't think I'm in favor of benching Danny, trading him, starting Simmons over him, I'm simply pointing out that his struggles have nothing to do with LMA, system adjustment, and the host of the other thousand excuses people are making for him, and everything to do with his natural limitations.

[ElNono]

In terms of natural talent, Danny is very much D-league. It's why guys like him and Bowen typically bounce around as journeymen, European pro ball, etc. Danny can't dribble, can't finish, and can't play-make, so his only utility is as a spot up shooter and defender, skills that can be learned through hard work and game study. Guys like Danny and Bowen are actually examples of how far hard work can get you as a pro athlete, and both found the right environment that is the best in pro sports at maximizing a player's skillset.

Don't think I'm in favor of benching Danny, trading him, starting Simmons over him, I'm simply pointing out that his struggles have nothing to do with LMA, system adjustment, and the host of the other thousand excuses people are making for him, and everything to do with his natural limitations.

He embodies 3&D, tbh... it's not a bad thing, he's an elite defender most of the time. I think Pop gave him a longer leash this season to see what else he had in-between, but I also think Pop is going to tighten that leash sooner rather than later.
That doesn't make him a bad player, or a guy like kobe that steals his salary, etc. He's just who he is, and as much as I wanted him to improve that middle-game, I'm more and more convinced he just doesn't have it in him.

[midnightpulp]

He embodies 3&D, tbh... it's not a bad thing, he's an elite defender most of the time. I think Pop gave him a longer leash this season to see what else he had in-between, but I also think Pop is going to tighten that leash sooner rather than later.
That doesn't make him a bad player, or a guy like kobe that steals his salary, etc. He's just who he is, and as much as I wanted him to improve that middle-game, I'm more and more convinced he just doesn't have it in him.

Yep. And the Spurs were able to mask Bowen's offensive limitations on the perimeter since Parker and Manu were in their primes. We didn't need Bowen to do much else but sit in the corner and play maddog defense. Parker and Manu are no longer a guaranteed 35-40 combined points like they once were, which puts a huge burden on Danny to try and carry the starting back-court scoring.

[Chinook]

In terms of natural talent, Danny is very much D-league. It's why guys like him and Bowen typically bounce around as journeymen, European pro ball, etc. Danny can't dribble, can't finish, and can't play-make, so his only utility is as a spot up shooter and defender, skills that can be learned through hard work and game study. Guys like Danny and Bowen are actually examples of how far hard work can get you as a pro athlete, and both found the right environment that is the best in pro sports at maximizing a player's skillset.

Again, defense is half of the freaking game, and there are a lot of different aspects to it. So equating that to play-making is silly. There are literally NBA players who can do one aspect of defense, like Hassan Whiteside. That he can get steals and blocks, check guys on the break, lock up guys in iso and rebound/box out much bigger player (like him routinely keeping Bogut off the offensive glass) shows how versatile he is. And a lot of that is stuff that Bowen didn't do, even if you believe Bruce was superior or even far superior in certain other aspects. It's really silly that you continue you ignore that Danny is an incredible all-around defender and that that talent is really rare.

And obviously, the average d-leaguer can't do half the things Green can do. Sure, some can score better, but Danny averaged 20/7/3 in the d-league and was quite the finisher there and in college. So he's not anywhere close to being in the same talent pool. He had just begun working on his three his senior year, and had people known that that was going to end up being a huge strength, they would have picked up much higher. As it was, they thought he was an undersized four, since that is how he started at UNC. Yes, he's an example of hard work, but you're not getting anywhere without talent.

Don't think I'm in favor of benching Danny, trading him, starting Simmons over him, I'm simply pointing out that his struggles have nothing to do with LMA, system adjustment, and the host of the other thousand excuses people are making for him, and everything to do with his natural limitations.

And it has NOTHING to do with his limitations. It's not like Green would be shooting 45 percent if only he were a slasher. He's in a funk, which is the closest thing to a limitation that he has in terms of his role. But most shooters are streaky, and Green is trending up. There are probably reasons to explain why he hasn't been as effective, and a lot of them are his fault. But in no way is his lack of "talent" the reason. It's not like he's finally coming back to Earth after four years of playing above his head.

[Chinook]

I think that's far from settled. On defense, I would take Danny any time of the day. But with other factors at play on offense (mostly inability to penetrate), starting Sims or even Manu might make more sense. Plus Danny has exactly the same problems with his handles under pressure, doesn't have the quick first step, and sometimes screws up not even trying to dribble the ball. So that's still an upgrade in that department, IMO.

No. If Simmons is going to turn the ball over as frequently as Green on drives, Simmons' ability to drive isn't a plus. It's actually a minus because it's his proclivity to do so. You can always tell Green to just shoot instead of drive, and it will eliminate his TOs and potentially get you a bunch of points. Simmons doesn't have that upside, so his choices against a swarming defense is just to take a bad shot or turn it over. That's horrible.

And Green should shadow Curry all game, so there shouldn't be a time where offense is more necessary. He's so essential because he's the best defender against the best player. So there's almost nothing that Simmons can do to balance that out.

[SupremeGuy]

thinking bulls would trade butler for green

[SAGirl]

Danny has indeed been better for 3. He's still hot/cold meaning he can have a scoring explosion one game and then come up empty or with a single 3 another, but yes as Chinook said his % has risen to 45% this month, and as sasaint noted, he also has toned down all the freelancing, and chaotic play he had earlier in the season, which probably added to his hesitation and hitches to his shot. He has most definitely been returning to himself.

The issue now is not Danny himself but the SL, and what they need to succeed. They haven't been great. They were horrible to begin with (Danny notorious long slump + LMA not familiar with offense and also in deferral state made for a bad SL), now they are good.

The point differential is due in large part to the bench. I was opposed to starting Simmons bc aside from all the defensive/lack of experience arguments ppl throw out there, I thought fit was a big issue. At this point, if you do switch lineups is not for Danny's benefit. He's been fine lately. Its more you do it to get Simmons more experience if Pop thinks he figures to be a big part of what we do in the post season. You might also want to do it to get Tony/Kawhi another ballhandler and more versatile backcourt mate.

[midnightpulp]

Again, defense is half of the freaking game, and there are a lot of different aspects to it. So equating that to play-making is silly. There are literally NBA players who can do one aspect of defense, like Hassan Whiteside. That he can get steals and blocks, check guys on the break, lock up guys in iso and rebound/box out much bigger player (like him routinely keeping Bogut off the offensive glass) shows how versatile he is. And a lot of that is stuff that Bowen didn't do, even if you believe Bruce was superior or even far superior in certain other aspects. It's really silly that you continue you ignore that Danny is an incredible all-around defender and that that talent is really rare.

And obviously, the average d-leaguer can't do half the things Green can do. Sure, some can score better, but Danny averaged 20/7/3 in the d-league and was quite the finisher there and in college. So he's not anywhere close to being in the same talent pool. He had just begun working on his three his senior year, and had people known that that was going to end up being a huge strength, they would have picked up much higher. As it was, they thought he was an undersized four, since that is how he started at UNC. Yes, he's an example of hard work, but you're not getting anywhere without talent.

All those attributes you mentioned can be learned and built through hard work and game/film study. Defense is more about knowledge and work ethic than anything else (a bit of length does help, as well). Why do you think a one legged Tim Duncan is still one of the best paint anchors in the league? Ben Wallace didn't have many "natural gifts," but molded himself into one of the best interior defenders in history, despite being undersized. Of course Danny is "naturally" talented, you have to be to play pro basketball, whether that's in the D-League, Europe, or the NBA, but in relative terms, he's limited in that respect to his peers. Simmons, for example, has more natural talent (but he might not have the same work ethic or dedication outside the gym [i.e. film study, etc]).

And it has NOTHING to do with his limitations. It's not like Green would be shooting 45 percent if only he were a slasher. He's in a funk, which is the closest thing to a limitation that he has in terms of his role. But most shooters are streaky, and Green is trending up. There are probably reasons to explain why he hasn't been as effective, and a lot of them are his fault. But in no way is his lack of "talent" the reason. It's not like he's finally coming back to Earth after four years of playing above his head.

I would argue that his lack of talent is the reason. Green is on the radar now, more than ever. Teams know he's not a threat to drive (and if he does, it's with usually poor results) or do much off the dribble, so they stick close to him and run him off his spots. Miami did this in game 6's and 7's after they figured out that yeah, Danny can shoot. And Danny was shut down. So other than hoping the offense generates an open look for him, how is he supposed to contribute on that end? He can't. He can't create his own shot. And that's because of his natural limitations (He's a poor dribbler. Not much leaping ability. Poor finisher at this level).

He embodies 3 and D. And 3 and D players are specialists for a reason.

[SAGirl]

The thing with Sims though is that he isn't the young Jax kind of guy that just takes the bull by the balls and just elevates everything at a given time. He's aiming to please right now, and so he would need a longer leash if he were to get a more prominent role.

I disagree with that. I think he has been very much been unleashed. He's looking less to pass, meaning he will get blocked at the rim bc he will challenge shot blockers, he will run full steam looking for his own shot or get fouled instead of looking to pass to the corner, sometimes turning it over or committing an offensive foul. No matter, that is what Pop wants him to do. He's being a bit more "selfish" if you will in looking for things for himself than he was earlier in the season, when he wanted to show off his passing ability.

At this point Pop knows he can pass the ball very well, they want him aggressive. So I do think he's been unleashed. You will not see more out of him until Manu retires. I know you love Manu but that is the God's honest truth. Anderson as well. He may rise or fall, but what he may be able to do best will not show until Manu retires. Simmons has a role as well. The offense goes through Manu a whole lot, he touches the ball, gets first dibs on reads and passes to make and attacks as he sees fit. If Simmons is ahead he will always get the ball.

[ElNono]

No. If Simmons is going to turn the ball over as frequently as Green on drives, Simmons' ability to drive isn't a plus. It's actually a minus because it's his proclivity to do so. You can always tell Green to just shoot instead of drive, and it will eliminate his TOs and potentially get you a bunch of points. Simmons doesn't have that upside, so his choices against a swarming defense is just to take a bad shot or turn it over. That's horrible.

And Green should shadow Curry all game, so there shouldn't be a time where offense is more necessary. He's so essential because he's the best defender against the best player. So there's almost nothing that Simmons can do to balance that out.

That's not my premise though. My premise is that he's going to turn it over less than Green in same situations, to a much larger effect breaking down the other team defense. Danny putting the ball on the floor is an almost instant invitation to pressure and cause a turnover. There's no quick step, poor pass recognition and relatively poor finishing. Just pressuring him even when he's not dribbling but simply ball handling is already a red alert. You can argue that Simmons has trouble when he drives recklessly, but he's a much better passer, finisher and generally if given that first step, he's going to burn you.

You can tell Danny not to penetrate and shoot, but if his shooting isn't really adding anything and the spacing is still all whack, then that's not what we need. This would actually be much less of an issue if Tony could penetrate at will, but there will be times, apparently, when that's not going to happen, so we're going to have to look somewhere else. I agree with you that I would rather have Danny blanket Curry, but the caveat is that you're not going to shut him down the way he's playing right now (this is not Curry 2 years ago), and that Danny (or Simms or Kawhi) really aren't that great going through screens anyways, so you'll always have some slip. But if on top of that you're not breaking down the defense on the other end, you're going to have a lot of problems putting up points against this team.

[ElNono]

I disagree with that. I think he has been very much been unleashed. He's looking less to pass, meaning he will get blocked at the rim bc he will challenge shot blockers, he will run full steam looking for his own shot or get fouled instead of looking to pass to the corner, sometimes turning it over or committing an offensive foul. No matter, that is what Pop wants him to do. He's being a bit more "selfish" if you will in looking for things for himself than he was earlier in the season, when he wanted to show off his passing ability.

At this point Pop knows he can pass the ball very well, they want him aggressive. So I do think he's been unleashed. You will not see more out of him until Manu retires. I know you love Manu but that is the God's honest truth. Anderson as well. He may rise or fall, but what he may be able to do best will not show until Manu retires. Simmons has a role as well. The offense goes through Manu a whole lot, he touches the ball, gets first dibs on reads and passes to make and attacks as he sees fit. If Simmons is ahead he will always get the ball.

I still think he defers too much, and that might just be intentional right now. Jax would call up a screen and drive to the basket. And then do it again. And then would jack up a 3. Simms doesn't have that kind of green light or confidence (yet anyways). He would need that if he were to be a starter and a difference maker for us.

[SAGirl]

I still think he defers too much, and that might just be intentional right now. Jax would call up a screen and drive to the basket. And then do it again. And then would jack up a 3. Simms doesn't have that kind of green light or confidence (yet anyways). He would need that if he were to be a starter and a difference maker for us.

I never witnessed Jax, so I didn't understand exactly what you meant.

I watched him play in the dleague a lot though, and what we have seen is pretty much his game, with some major improvements, but the essence of his game is the same. He has added a spin move I never saw in the dleague. I think that is something he worked with coaches here in SA. He also didn't do that preseason or SL and it helps him avoid being cut off or turning the ball over, as well as takes advantage of his quickness, so I believe he's still improving despite his age. His handles are probably not going to be great ever, but he is better anticipating swipes and seeing the guy who is going to cut him off and at that point grabbing the ball to shield it, even if he has to cut his drive and take a shot close to the basket but not at the rim. He's so athletic that when he jumps he still has a good look at those shots.

I definitely have seen improvements, but the kind of game you mention, he didn't have it. He was not a prolific 3 pt shooter. His made shots were wide open, and set. He's improved his shot, but he's not the kind of guy like Kawhi or Manu that you want taking freelancing shots, step back jumpers or what not.

I don't see the deferral you see, except that he won't force shots that are beyond his skill at this point. If he has a lane, he will take it, if he has a 3, he will take it, he will pass well. To freelance on his own requires I believe a more sophisticated offensive game than he has.

You know who has that kind of sophisticated game? Slow-Mo. He does defer too much, he is much more skilled than he has shown and he does and did defer too much, but we are not a development team. We are a contending team, so he will have to push the envelope and develop whenever he can.

[ElNono]

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Danny, I want him to do great. What I'm talking about is the fact that half a season is gone and this team isn't the same as previous seasons, and while the SL and team overall is much improved than last season and better than 95% of the rest of the league, the offense in the SL can still be hard to watch. Spacing is fairly broken, and we really hang our hat much more on elite defense than anything else. The bench (which has been dominant on it's own) is really where you see a lot more ball movement, cuts, etc.

[testies]

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

[Mal]

I`d trade two picks and Green for Butler, tbh

[ElNono]

I never witnessed Jax, so I didn't understand exactly what you meant.

I watched him play in the dleague a lot though, and what we have seen is pretty much his game, with some major improvements, but the essence of his game is the same. He has added a spin move I never saw in the dleague. I think that is something he worked with coaches here in SA. He also didn't do that preseason or SL and it helps him avoid being cut off or turning the ball over, as well as takes advantage of his quickness, so I believe he's still improving despite his age. His handles are probably not going to be great ever, but he is better anticipating swipes and seeing the guy who is going to cut him off and at that point grabbing the ball to shield it, even if he has to cut his drive and take a shot close to the basket but not at the rim. He's so athletic that when he jumps he still has a good look at those shots.

I definitely have seen improvements, but the kind of game you mention, he didn't have it. He was not a prolific 3 pt shooter. His made shots were wide open, and set. He's improved his shot, but he's not the kind of guy like Kawhi or Manu that you want taking freelancing shots, step back jumpers or what not.

I don't see the deferral you see, except that he won't force shots that are beyond his skill at this point. If he has a lane, he will take it, if he has a 3, he will take it, he will pass well. To freelance on his own requires I believe a more sophisticated offensive game than he has.

You know who has that kind of sophisticated game? Slow-Mo. He does defer too much, he is much more skilled than he has shown and he does and did defer too much, but we are not a development team. We are a contending team, so he will have to push the envelope and develop whenever he can.

It's just a matter of confidence, personality, balls... Manu was like that too when he got here, pushing the envelope and sometimes angering Pop. Players that test the boundaries. Simms is not that guy right now, but he would need to be, IMO, if he's going to get a larger role and become a difference maker.

[testies]

It's just a matter of confidence, personality, balls... Manu was like that too when he got here, pushing the envelope and sometimes angering Pop. Players that test the boundaries. Simms is not that guy right now, but he would need to be, IMO, if he's going to get a larger role and become a difference maker.

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

[ElNono]

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

and you think they're going to do that after you're taking a victory lap on the forum?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

I'll see what I can do.