Boban... is he really a keeper?

[SAGirl]

With the league going smaller, there's going to be a fire sale for most centers.

There was a recent article that the Thunder are in are trouble because they invested heavily on guys like Adams, Kanter and Collison. Guys that don't translate well to small ball. Thunder was able to catch up with GSW only because they had Ibaka at C and Durant at the 4.

The main perceived liability for Boban is his lack of quickness in defense. That's going to suppress teams from paying premium for him.

Boban is an okay player, but he needs good teammates to compensate for his weaknesses and to exploit his strengths. You need players that funnel players to him on defense and are able to pass to him at the right spots in offense.

There's also something weird about his screens in that the team is just going through the motions and not really using them.

I have been critical that one of his minuses on offense is that he doesn't set good screens that free up the ball handler at all. It's like he just dances in space. It limits the offense to throwing him lobs and the post ups. He's got a high usage bc if he's playing you almost have to go to him every time or every other time bc he's not that effective setting screens or doing other stuff. I am not sure if the screens or pick setting is rookieshness or not. He's been playing basketball for years and pick and screen setting is a basic big skill.

I do agree like all rookies he needs reps and to learn from his mistakes. Just some things I am skeptical of him improving bc he's new to the NBA but some things are fundamentals that a 27 yr roleplayer should know. Heck some big s screen and pick setting + rebounding and some defense is all they do.

[Chinook]

That is assuming they will opt in and retire. I was assuming they don't pick up their options and just retire. If they do the former, the Spurs are kind of screwed, FA wise.

If they opt in to their 2nd years, I think they will play. And the recent comments of both Tim and Manu wanting to get back on the court tells me they still have passion for the game, which is a good sign. The only change I really see is Bertans taking Bonner spot on the roster.

Player options are rarely for the team's benefit. They're designed for the player to get money the team doesn't want them to get. Often, that manifests itself in bad players opting in, like RJ did a couple of seasons ago. Philosophically, though they are injury insurance, like Gerald Henderson picking up his option this year. If Tim and Manu wanted to be one and done, then a one-year deal makes the most sense. If they wanted to go one-and-one, then a one-year STILL made more sense, as it would have allowed both sides to maintain flexibility.

So why did they sign a one-and-one deal? It was because they were undecided on coming back, but I believe the contingencies are the opposite of what you'd expect. If the oldies come back next year, I expect them to opt out, as it would allow for the team to potentially pursue a max free agent or failing that would allow for the Spurs to use their Bird rights to give both guys a nice send-off contract. If they plan to retire, on the other hand, they'll take the money owed to them, which the Spurs would gladly give, seeing as both guys got under-market value on their deals to allow the team to sign LMA.

I will reiterate that you are correct that it could work out that the opt out to retire or opt in to return. I'm not going to act like my scenario is the only one that could work out. But the former situation is too good to hope for, while the latter would be inefficient. Opting out is better in any scenario in which the Spurs wouldn't try to force Manu or Tim to retire against their wills, which I think is a safe bet to not be the case.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I have been critical that one of his minuses on offense is that he doesn't set good screens that free up the ball handler at all. It's like he just dances in space. It limits the offense to throwing him lobs and the post ups. He's got a high usage bc if he's playing you almost have to go to him every time or every other time bc he's not that effective setting screens or doing other stuff. I am not sure if the screens or pick setting is rookieshness or not. He's been playing basketball for years and pick and screen setting is a basic big skill.

I do agree like all rookies he needs reps and to learn from his mistakes. Just some things I am skeptical of him improving bc he's new to the NBA but some things are fundamentals that a 27 yr roleplayer should know. Heck some big s screen and pick setting + rebounding and some defense is all they do.

The screen game is two ways and the way guys try to go around him as opposed to fighting through him makes the timing for both ballhandler and screener more difficult. I see what you are talking about but I also see it getting better.

When Mills or Simmons come off a screen don't look for contact particularly if the defender goes around. Look to see if the ballhandler gets separation or at least with the defender behind them or on their hip. It's definitely a work in progress but he seems to have a sense of space and just needs time to figure out angles and timing. Pop is finding him minutes so things are looking up.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Anyone else other than Chinook think West and/or Manu would opt-in and retire screwing the clubs cap situation? Particularly after they have already taken less money to help the club? Gerald Henderson's case is great and all but gmfb.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Player options are rarely for the team's benefit. They're designed for the player to get money the team doesn't want them to get. Often, that manifests itself in bad players opting in, like RJ did a couple of seasons ago. Philosophically, though they are injury insurance, like Gerald Henderson picking up his option this year. If Tim and Manu wanted to be one and done, then a one-year deal makes the most sense. If they wanted to go one-and-one, then a one-year STILL made more sense, as it would have allowed both sides to maintain flexibility.

So why did they sign a one-and-one deal? It was because they were undecided on coming back, but I believe the contingencies are the opposite of what you'd expect. If the oldies come back next year, I expect them to opt out, as it would allow for the team to potentially pursue a max free agent or failing that would allow for the Spurs to use their Bird rights to give both guys a nice send-off contract. If they plan to retire, on the other hand, they'll take the money owed to them, which the Spurs would gladly give, seeing as both guys got under-market value on their deals to allow the team to sign LMA.

I will reiterate that you are correct that it could work out that the opt out to retire or opt in to return. But the former situation is too good to hope for, while the latter would be inefficient. Opting out is better in any scenario in which the Spurs wouldn't try to force Manu or Tim to retire against their wills, which I think is a safe bet to not be the case.

When looking at other teams you're correct, and I would assume the worse. But this is the Spurs we're talking about. I just don't see Manu and Tim opting in and NOT PLAYING, knowing the needs the Spurs have to fill. It's just not them. This whole run of Tim, Manu, and Parker and now Kawhi and LMA has been too good to be true but its because the Spurs players sacrifice more than any players in the league. RJ wasn't Spurs material which is why he got shipped out.

Spurs would glady give them the money and I wouldn't hate on them whatsoever if they did, but I just don't seeing them doing that. If they take that money and opt in, I would 90% they will be playing next season even if it is at a reduce capacity.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I have been critical that one of his minuses on offense is that he doesn't set good screens that free up the ball handler at all. It's like he just dances in space. It limits the offense to throwing him lobs and the post ups. He's got a high usage bc if he's playing you almost have to go to him every time or every other time bc he's not that effective setting screens or doing other stuff. I am not sure if the screens or pick setting is rookieshness or not. He's been playing basketball for years and pick and screen setting is a basic big skill.

I do agree like all rookies he needs reps and to learn from his mistakes. Just some things I am skeptical of him improving bc he's new to the NBA but some things are fundamentals that a 27 yr roleplayer should know. Heck some big s screen and pick setting + rebounding and some defense is all they do.

If you watch Boban Serbian Highlights, yes was basically Tim Duncan 15 years ago, meaning he lived in the post. Having to set screens and roll sometimes 2/3 times in one possession is something Boban is not accustomed to. The one Euro league that does do this is the Spanish league which is why guys like Gasol, Splitter were more acclimated to the current NBA offenses. That is why I am not surprised he isn't efficient at this point. But his screens are getting tighter and better by the week. So you can notice there is progression there.

[Mel_13]

When looking at other teams you're correct, and I would assume the worse. But this is the Spurs we're talking about. I just don't see Manu and Tim opting in and NOT PLAYING, knowing the needs the Spurs have to fill. It's just not them. This whole run of Tim, Manu, and Parker and now Kawhi and LMA has been too good to be true but its because the Spurs players sacrifice more than any players in the league. RJ wasn't Spurs material which is why he got shipped out.

Spurs would glady give them the money and I wouldn't hate on them whatsoever if they did, but I just don't seeing them doing that. If they take that money and opt in, I would 90% they will be playing next season even if it is at a reduce capacity.

Without disputing anything in your post, the question remains:

Why include second year player options if not to retain the possibility of using them as farewell gifts to Tim and Manu?

[Chinook]

When looking at other teams you're correct, and I would assume the worse. But this is the Spurs we're talking about. I just don't see Manu and Tim opting in and NOT PLAYING, knowing the needs the Spurs have to fill. It's just not them. This whole run of Tim, Manu, and Parker and now Kawhi and LMA has been too good to be true but its because the Spurs players sacrifice more than any players in the league. RJ wasn't Spurs material which is why he got shipped out.

Spurs would glady give them the money and I wouldn't hate on them whatsoever if they did, but I just don't seeing them doing that. If they take that money and opt in, I would 90% they will be playing next season even if it is at a reduce capacity.

The question is really how much this was talked about prior to this season. I feel that PATFO consulted pretty heavily with Tim and Manu on how to structure their contracts. The idea of deferred compensation is kinda like the elephant in the room. I doubt like you that Tim and Manu would screw the team over by retiring and pocketing the money without the team's blessing. But I think that could have been the plan all along. If everyone agreed to sacrifice this season and use next season to balance their books, then this upcoming storm is intentional and probably won't be bailed out.

[dabom]

Boban will be in a Spurs jersey next year. He also stated he was only coming to the NBA to play for the Spurs. ing re s.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The question is really how much this was talked about prior to this season. I feel that PATFO consulted pretty heavily with Tim and Manu on how to structure their contracts. The idea of deferred compensation is kinda like the elephant in the room. I doubt like you that Tim and Manu would screw the team over by retiring and pocketing the money without the team's blessing. But I think that could have been the plan all along. If everyone agreed to sacrifice this season and use next season to balance their books, then this upcoming storm is intentional and probably won't be bailed out.

You have any proof at all that is the case other than incredulity that it could be anything else?

[dabom]

The level of sleuthing in ST is ridiculously low.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Without disputing anything in your post, the question remains:

Why include second year player options if not to retain the possibility of using them as farewell gifts to Tim and Manu?

Manu was signed with the BAE, so his 2nd year had to be in the contract. Duncan, I just thought he would play another season after this. With the LMA signing, Kawhi rise to s om, I think both think the Spurs have a shot to win a championship this year and next.

I got a lot of out an interview I watched from Manu this offseason. He said he had to be truly sure that this was the end for him. He knew that if he hung it up it was for good and there wasn't going to be another shot of playing. So he asked himself, does he is still have the hunger and passion for playing. He told himself, yes. I still see it in him, enough that I see him coming back another season.

I think the PO was there as a good faith gesture to both. So yeah, its up to them if they want to come back. And its up to them to opt in and retire or not opt in and retire. The ball is entirely in their court as it should be.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Without disputing anything in your post, the question remains:

Why include second year player options if not to retain the possibility of using them as farewell gifts to Tim and Manu?

To give them the opportunity to come back and play at the same rate. The opt-in and play option.

I get what those options are normally used for and how agents/clubs conventionally use them in negotiations. Without disputing any of that the point remains: the Spurs are not conventional when it comes to how they do their deals.

[raybies]

Imo Spurs signed him to a one year deal for a reason and that was because they are all in to win this year. Like I have said, he is a situational big. He can play against certain teams and that's it. He would have to grow alot with his positioning and still it would be iffy. For the right price he could be a solid 3rd center. But to pay money for a situational big would be folly. I old his character and work ethic but I would much rather have another big that can pick and roll and defend the room as well as not be a liability on D, whether it be pnr or in the post. I think there are some prospects in the draft in our range that can fit better. He's dominant on offense, I give y'all that but he's unplayable against our top 3 threats and I don't want to invest any money in any guy that's not gonna make a difference when it counts. With our cap situation it's something we can't afford to do.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You would think he failed on the pnr every time. You have to wonder how in a pnr league he manages to have a good defensive rating.

[dabom]

I've never said to start Boban(Unless duncan is out for some reason...). Just that he will be a Spur next year. Whatever that role is.

[Mel_13]

The LLE/BAE can be for one or two years.

[dabom]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus - Centers

RK	NAME	TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WINS
1	DeAndre Jordan	LAC	50	33.8	1.10	5.85	6.95	10.28
2	DeMarcus Cousins	SAC	43	34.2	2.76	3.90	6.66	9.19
3	Tim Duncan	SA	37	25.9	-0.47	6.95	6.48	5.79
4	Nikola Jokic	DEN	51	19.9	2.80	2.84	5.64	5.32
5	Pau Gasol	CHI	48	31.9	0.70	4.70	5.40	8.07
6	Andre Drummond	DET	53	33.6	0.11	4.45	4.56	8.43
7	Kelly Olynyk	BOS	53	20.5	1.41	3.12	4.53	5.30
8	Zaza Pachulia	DAL	50	29.6	0.39	3.95	4.34	6.47
9	Andrew Bogut	GS	44	20.8	-1.41	5.70	4.29	4.32
10	Dwight Howard	HOU	43	32.2	0.36	3.84	4.20	5.94
11	Jared Sullinger	BOS	53	23.3	0.30	3.76	4.06	5.57
12	Ian Mahinmi	IND	43	24.1	-0.97	4.91	3.94	4.62
13	Rudy Gobert	UTAH	31	33.3	-0.50	4.21	3.71	3.83
14	Mason Plumlee	POR	53	25.7	0.27	3.25	3.52	5.57
15	Ed Davis	POR	52	21.4	0.57	2.67	3.24	4.21
16	Marc Gasol	MEM	52	34.4	0.35	2.85	3.20	6.72
17	Greg Monroe	MIL	51	30.4	1.43	1.65	3.08	5.86
18	Festus Ezeli	GS	40	17.8	-0.06	3.10	3.04	2.89
19	Boban Marjanovic	SA	33	8.8	2.29	0.74	3.03	1.06
20	Brook Lopez	BKN	53	33.7	0.61	2.30	2.91	6.71

Looking good to me for 5th big off the floor for the Spurs.

[Chinook]

The LLE/BAE can be for one or two years.

And Manu signed for the room exception, which can ALSO be for one or two years.

[Mel_13]

To give them the opportunity to come back and play at the same rate. The opt-in and play option.

I get what those options are normally used for and how agents/clubs conventionally use them in negotiations. Without disputing any of that the point remains: the Spurs are not conventional when it comes to how they do their deals.

They would have had full Bird Rights on both players even if they had signed one year deals with no options.

I'm not going to pretend to know what went on during the negotiations between the players and the team, but I don't see any reason to dismiss the possibility that those options were included as potential golden parachutes.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They would have had full Bird Rights on both players even if they had signed one year deals with no options.

I'm not going to pretend to know what went on during the negotiations between the players and the team, but I don't see any reason to dismiss the possibility that those options were included as potential golden parachutes.

I'm not saying discount it. I'm saying there is no reason to insist on it.

[Mel_13]

I'm not saying discount it. I'm saying there is no reason to insist on it.

Agreed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Agreed.

And the way I recall it, they had to sign Manu and Tim and clear their holds before they could complete the LMA deal. They couldn't use their bird rights to pay more at that point as it would have taken away Aldridge's cap money. They slotted LMA and fit right up to the cap. It was masterfully done.

[Mel_13]

And the way I recall it, they had to sign Manu and Tim and clear their holds before they could complete the LMA deal. They couldn't use their bird rights to pay more at that point as it would have taken away Aldridge's cap money. They slotted LMA and fit right up to the cap. It was masterfully done.

They signed Tim first, then LMA. They actually renounced Manu and then used the Room Exception after they used up their cap space. When you include the Leonard and Green signings, as well as the Splitter trade, it truly was masterfully done.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They signed Tim first, then LMA. They actually renounced Manu and the used the Room Exception after they used up their cap space. When you include the Leonard and Green signings, as well as the Splitter trade, it truly was masterfully done.

Renouncing surrenders bird rights no?