I'm no advocate for Ryan Richards or anyone else to play or not play. It's just clear to me while watching his movements that he could be an asset to the team if his talents were properly harnessed. The young'in in the d-league Ndoy I also believe may make some noise before its all said and done.
He's not and although he has acted as one in small ball and due to Timmy' s sore knee, Pop clearly prefers him with Timmy together and our defense is better with Timmy. If you don't have Timmy though it's a real issue. I still like Boban very much but he has shown limitations defensively although he could improve.
Where is this notion that LMA is a ty rim protector coming from? I'd say he's at least average in that aspect. He rated out as an elite rim protector last year, but I haven't checked the numbers this year. Watching him this year he seems decent enough, certainly not so bad that you dread having him play center or anything like that.
He's nothing special rebounding-wise for a center, but depending on who you get at PF + having Kawhi at SF, I don't really think that's a deal breaker.
As for his back-to-the-basket game, he's in the top 20% in terms of post-up efficiencyNot sure how much better you want him to be.
I'm not saying he should play 100% of his minutes at center, but I really don't see why it's such a crazy idea to have him start at center and play a good amount of his minutes there (again, as I said in my original post, assuming he himself is fine with doing so).
Last edited by SpursFan86; 02-24-2016 at 09:18 PM.
Truth cereal for breakfast.
Depends on what version of Duncan. Prime Duncan could play both PF/C positions at elite level with no problem. He could be paired with Nazr or Horry, with Robinson or Rose.
Other than the game of a natural Center, Duncan had an outside shot, he was mobile enough to play help defense and he could guard most PFs/Cs in the league. He could do it all. Not everyone can do that. See what happened with the 76ers when they tried to play Noel as a 4. It was terrible simply because he can't play both PF/C positions. Not many players in the league can.
Aldridge is not a great rebounder, can't anchor a defense, not a great shot-blocker and offensively plays outside for the most part. That's not a C in any level. Why is he C? The only C thing he's got is size.
I don't think there's much doubt that old Duncan plays as a Center.
The key for Splitter in SA was mobility. He couldn't shoot, but he was good guarding mobile BIGs (mostly PFs) while Duncan no longer could. Yeah, you could say that Timmy played some 4 offensively with him, but not defensively. Duncan wouldn't be paired with Gobert because both lack mobility. A stretch BIG would murder them.
And quite honestly, if SA had nailed Gobert back in 2013, I don't even think that Baynes would have stayed longer than 1 season. Boris would probably have logged a lot of minutes with Gobert.
They were better than regular-season Horry and make-Blair-seem-like-a-legit-big Rose. They weren't Splitter's caliber, but they were the best bigs the team could get. And Oberto is smaller than Tim was and LMA is. So I don't think he's a good example of playing Tim next to a true center. If you just mean a guy who has to play at the rim, Blair counts.
The Spurs were third and eighth in the league the two years Bonner and McDyess started full time. Blair was a dumpster fire there for sure, and Diaw is only situational, but the defense falling off wasn't merely the result of using Tim as the primary center. The Spurs attacked their defensive issue both by starting Splitter and moving Green and Kawhi into bigger roles. That's not because they simply needed a center next to Tim (in your mind they don't have one now, and they're the best defense in the league). It's because they got really good defender to replace completely awful guys like Blair, Neal and Mason Jr.The defense fell off a cliff, when Bonner, McDyess, Blair and Diaw, started. Their main priority since then has been repairing the defense. I don't buy that they go away from that again, not when they've proven they can have elite offenses by starting traditional.
Yeah, Tim would be a top-10 center of all time. That's better than any center currently playing. LMA doesn't have to be Tim.Most importantly, despite similar physical tools, Aldridge isn't Duncan. Duncan is an all-time great rim protector/rebounder.
This is awful similar to the Turner/Young debate we have a long time ago where you kept arguing that Turner was a natural two and Young was a natural four without any real elaboration. Horford and Bosh have been fives for years and do just fine there. Bosh in particular excels in an environment where he doesn't have a guy clogging the paint. The transition was a little rough, but he's caught up defensively, and if he can resume his career, he'll probably be a center full time again next season. Horford has been a five his whole career, and the Hawks haven't seemed remotely interested in changing that, hence why they signed Millsap and gave guys like Mike Scott long-term deals. You can site the Splitter trade all you want, but they got him for free, so I don't think the plan was ever to make him the starting five at the expense of Millsap.Horford, Bosh, Davis, Ibaka and Aldridge, are true 4.5's. The ideal compliments to them, are a starting center, like Splitter and a backup power forward, like Diaw. Someone has to set sturdy screens, be a roller, protect the rim and rebound.
Davis is a tweener in the worst way possible. He is a guy who really needs to be the five on offense but can't consistently play the five on defense. The only guys who really fit that mold are true stretch-fives, and as we have discussed, those are really rare. Ibaka is a four, and he only deviates from that in small-ball. You may as well have added Draymond as a 4.5.
LMA is more of a physical center than any of those guys, and he has a game that does better when there is space -- and that's an even bigger issue with Kawhi also having that game. I agree the Spurs would do well to have someone who can roll, but they don't need to have a seven-footer starting next to LMA to have that. Blair was a terrific PnR partner for Manu on the bench. It's really the second unit that needs that inside presence. The first unit as a whole needs a guy who can defend the PnR and space the floor, even if I were to concede that LMA would do better with a Lopez type.
Only person in ST that thinks LMA is a center.
Even LMA know's he's not a center when he tried to play with Tyson Chandler.
I don't see a defensive anchor out there. Maybe Noel in 2017 or Ibaka if you consider him that. But a number of teams lack bigs who can control the paint. That simply can't be a paradigm anymore.
I think that's really the nature of my disagreement here. I think your view is a little antiquated, to channel my inner Harlem. Prime Duncan's game is a center's game now. He never really had a consistent PF outside shot. His mobility was really good for a big back then but it wasn't good enough to guard the combo-forwards of today. He and Splitter struggled offensively, and that was before Kawhi became a post-up guy. No way that works in today's league. And it probably wouldn't even be considered in 2020's league. That Splitter's mobility made it partially work was a miracle that will almost certainly not be repeated in free agency.
To your last comment, Diaw doesn't count anymore than Boban does this year. The point was that Tim would play the four if he had to just as much as he's playing the five now. It's not about LMA being forced into playing the five. He is having his best games there.
Whether he's playing center or PF, the question is how well will he play defense. He has some ability to play good D, but all to often I see him looking a little disinterested in D or just losing his man on PNRs or failing to give help. Seems like some games or quarters he just goes through the motions on defense.
That's the thing. We could discuss if Pop ends up using Aldridge as a Center in the future depending on the options after Duncan's retirement. OK it could happen I agree, even though I'd rather have a traditional rim protector. Aldridge is skilled offensively and believe in his post skills. Maybe he improves his rebounding and his shot-blocking skills.Where is this notion that LMA is a ty rim protector coming from? I'd say he's at least average in that aspect. He rated out as an elite rim protector last year, but I haven't checked the numbers this year. Watching him this year he seems decent enough, certainly not so bad that you dread having him play center or anything like that.
He's nothing special rebounding-wise for a center, but depending on who you get at PF + having Kawhi at SF, I don't really think that's a deal breaker.
As for his back-to-the-basket game, he's in the top 20% in terms of post-up efficiency
I'm not saying he should play 100% of his minutes at center, but I really don't see why it's such a crazy idea to have him start at center and play a good amount of his minutes there (again, as I said in my original post, assuming he himself is fine with doing so).
But saying that Aldridge is a traditional Center that can play PF is something that I can't dig. I agree with Chinook on several things, but not this one. Aldridge was never a traditional Center. He may become one in the future for the Spurs, but it's probably going to be because of the lack of decent options, not because he is a true C.
I don't have a problem with the notion that Aldridge may play as a C for us in the future. It could happen, especially in today's small-ball era.
I just don't agree that Aldridge is a traditional Center that can play PF as you said. He isn't. He isn't a tradicional Center in any era.
I was talking physically. I think there are eras where he would gladly play the four and thank his lucky stars. But he's almost certainly going to play next to a smaller guy, and what's the point of having a smaller guy who doesn't have perimeter skills or shooting ability?
This I have noticed too and I have given it some thought but I have not yet figured out why that is. Obviously Tim is slowed and his presence really slows the SL down. They are not slow bc they want to be slow, Pop actually wants them to rush it down court at times. Danny will take the occasional transition 3, and both Kawhi and Tony push the tempo off the dribble when the opportunity presents itself... even LMA runs the floor and seals men in the paint early or even gets the occasional transition O put back or dunk assisted from someone. The point is the SL really tries to push the tempo at times, they are just not that capable... and Timmy and LMA do compete for the left block as well as touches up top... when any other big, any other, I will give you Butler who just spots up, Anderson who is constantly cutting off the ball to try to keep his defender occupied as they help off him (that problem would be much worse with LJC who is a less skilled player, and less of a threat to shoot, something to consider), West who is just a deadly shooter and a terrific, surprisingly unselfish passer, or Diaw who is a creative post up player and passer... any of them plays with LMA he's gone on the attack more often, and ends up with more shots or better quality shots. Timmy roaming the paint while he's declined offensively so steeply lately is a bit of a problem.
I think ultimately offensively, the bigger problem is not LMA at all, it's just that Timmy has declined. He's lately been terribly inefficient. Timmy last few games has gone:
1-5 (PHX)-- owned by Alex Len
4-9 LAL --some against Hibbert, but also some Randle and Bass in there.
1-6 LAC
2-9 ORL was coming back from injury.
1-5 LAL (after this is when he got on the injured list)
0-4 DAL
4-10 CLE
This is problematic for a man who lives in the paint.
Timmy's last good offensive game was against DET on 1/12. He shot 5-8.
It's not that we need his scoring... but if he's going to clog the paint, he's got to be more efficient than he's recently been playing bc he's getting shots off others' actions. It seems clear to me he hasn't been right.
Looking forward to the Spurs signing a 6'6 guy, listing him as a center next to Aldridge and people claiming victory on this Aldridge's not a center debate
Seriously, post Duncan the Spurs will go for the best available big they can get and play him next to Aldridge, then work around the fit offensively and defensively. Doesn't matter who's listed as a PF and who's a C - offensively, unless there are rule changes, that other guy should be able to shoot some, and defensively that other guy should be mobile enough. Ideally, that is. Not sure how people expect the Spurs to get a traditional C, put him close to the rim defensively and expect a 33 year old Aldridge to chase the Draymond Greens around the perimeter.
ty takes by ty posters. *yawn
The Voice of Reason. Thank you.Looking forward to the Spurs signing a 6'6 guy, listing him as a center next to Aldridge and people claiming victory on this Aldridge's not a center debate
Seriously, post Duncan the Spurs will go for the best available big they can get and play him next to Aldridge, then work around the fit offensively and defensively. Doesn't matter who's listed as a PF and who's a C - offensively, unless there are rule changes, that other guy should be able to shoot some, and defensively that other guy should be mobile enough. Ideally, that is. Not sure how people expect the Spurs to get a traditional C, put him close to the rim defensively and expect a 33 year old Aldridge to chase the Draymond Greens around the perimeter.
When people try and put strict definitions on positions its trouble. There have been plenty of times within individual games and sequences when Manu is the traditional PG and Tony the SG. Assigning positions and and associated attributes has changed drastically. I guess the football mentality where offensive lineman clearly play under a different set of rules is used in a sport that is much more fluid. This is the only major team game I know of where all "positions" play under the same set of written rules at all times. I wonder if this ever brought up.Looking forward to the Spurs signing a 6'6 guy, listing him as a center next to Aldridge and people claiming victory on this Aldridge's not a center debate
Seriously, post Duncan the Spurs will go for the best available big they can get and play him next to Aldridge, then work around the fit offensively and defensively. Doesn't matter who's listed as a PF and who's a C - offensively, unless there are rule changes, that other guy should be able to shoot some, and defensively that other guy should be mobile enough. Ideally, that is. Not sure how people expect the Spurs to get a traditional C, put him close to the rim defensively and expect a 33 year old Aldridge to chase the Draymond Greens around the perimeter.
Last edited by pgardn; 02-25-2016 at 08:01 AM.
judging " " takes?
I don't think so.
Dp
Been saying this the whole time. If the Spurs get Gasol, LMA is a PF. But if the Spurs decide to play West next to him, then he's a C. If Tim and Manu leave, next season is going to be a transition year. You get the best player(s) you can with the cap space and then you start working on the next iteration of the "system".Looking forward to the Spurs signing a 6'6 guy, listing him as a center next to Aldridge and people claiming victory on this Aldridge's not a center debate
Seriously, post Duncan the Spurs will go for the best available big they can get and play him next to Aldridge, then work around the fit offensively and defensively. Doesn't matter who's listed as a PF and who's a C - offensively, unless there are rule changes, that other guy should be able to shoot some, and defensively that other guy should be mobile enough. Ideally, that is. Not sure how people expect the Spurs to get a traditional C, put him close to the rim defensively and expect a 33 year old Aldridge to chase the Draymond Greens around the perimeter.
That doesn't make them "really good players". They might have been the best the team could get, in terms of caliber, but they clearly targeted centers; it didn't just happen by accident. Oberto was undersized, but his game was clearly that of a center's.
Again, you're acting like Aldridge can do what Duncan does, just because of a similar physique. It doesn't work that way. You can have all the mobility, quickness and switch ability you want; if you can't protect the rim/defensive rebound, then it's all for naught, as evidenced by the games Duncan missed.
No, I argued Young was a natural three and he is. The only difference between him and guys like Gallinari, J. Green, Gay, etc., is three-point shooting. Horford has been a center because fellow top 2-3 players on their team were power forwards, who couldn't play center. In Bosh's case, they couldn't even find a second legit starting big at either position, until a year ago. Now, he's back to playing more power forward. By your logic, Duncan is a power forward, because he mostly started next to true centers.
Everyone does better offensively when there's more space. That doesn't mean you start lineups that can't protect the rim/defensive rebound at the expense of it. You make it sound like Aldridge is Splitter, when it comes to shooting. There's roughly a half dozen players in the entire league capable of protecting the rim and spacing the floor and the Spurs aren't getting one of them, so excluding that pipe dream, they need a legit center next to Aldridge. They'll be games where said center barely plays, but the roster still needs to be built in such a way that they, like most teams still do, start that way and then adjust accordingly based on the match-up.
TD21 cooking here.
Great stuff. Throughout this whole thread. And I'm not even denigrating Chinook, who has had some good points also, but damn. This has been an informative and pleasant read.
Like an Iron Chef.TD21 cooking here.
Just give this man an ingredient...
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