Post Tim Center Discussion

[dabom]

Like an Iron Chef.
Just give this man an ingredient...

[Chinook]

That doesn't make them "really good players". They might have been the best the team could get, in terms of caliber, but they clearly targeted centers; it didn't just happen by accident. Oberto was undersized, but his game was clearly that of a center's.

You have to make up your mind on what it means to be a "true center". Oberto didn't protect the rim at all (like 75 blocks his whole career while LMA has 59 this season), and LMA is a better rebounder on the defensive end (5.8 drp36 while in SA compared to LMA's 7.0 drp36). In no way is Lamarcus less of a five than Fabre was.

Again, you're acting like Aldridge can do what Duncan does, just because of a similar physique. It doesn't work that way. You can have all the mobility, quickness and switch ability you want; if you can't protect the rim/defensive rebound, then it's all for naught, as evidenced by the games Duncan missed.

Again, he doesn't have to be Tim. The Spurs will not recreate their past roster with new players. They'll have a completely different paradigm. Also there are PFs who are really good rebounders, Sullinger being one of them.

Horford has been a center because fellow top 2-3 players on their team were power forwards, who couldn't play center.

The team purposefully signed power-forwards because Horford is a center. They didn't do like you're suggesting and start guys like Antic or Tavares just so Al could play his "natural position."

In Bosh's case, they couldn't even find a second legit starting big at either position, until a year ago. Now, he's back to playing more power forward.

They didn't want a big next to Bosh, hence why they had Battier and Lewis start. They needed the spacing for James. Now that those are Bosh's touches, they are back to being able to play a center next to him. The Spurs are much closer to the former era than the latter in terms of personnel.

Everyone does better offensively when there's more space. That doesn't mean you start lineups that can't protect the rim/defensive rebound at the expense of it. You make it sound like Aldridge is Splitter, when it comes to shooting. There's roughly a half dozen players in the entire league capable of protecting the rim and spacing the floor and the Spurs aren't getting one of them, so excluding that pipe dream, they need a legit center next to Aldridge. They'll be games where said center barely plays, but the roster still needs to be built in such a way that they, like most teams still do, start that way and then adjust accordingly based on the match-up.

Elbow jumpers and PnPs are no longer adequate spacing. Most teams employ a big who can shoot threes now. LMA is much closer to being the other big than he is to being the stretch-four.

[dabom]

Your credibility is lost when you call LMA a center.

[TD 21]

Great stuff. Throughout this whole thread. And I'm not even denigrating Chinook, who has had some good points also, but damn. This has been an informative and pleasant read.

You have to make up your mind on what it means to be a "true center". Oberto didn't protect the rim at all (like 75 blocks his whole career while LMA has 59 this season), and LMA is a better rebounder on the defensive end (5.8 drp36 while in SA compared to LMA's 7.0 drp36). In no way is Lamarcus less of a five than Fabre was.


Again, he doesn't have to be Tim. The Spurs will not recreate their past roster with new players. They'll have a completely different paradigm. Also there are PFs who are really good rebounders, Sullinger being one of them.



The team purposefully signed power-forwards because Horford is a center. They didn't do like you're suggesting and start guys like Antic or Tavares just so Al could play his "natural position."



They didn't want a big next to Bosh, hence why they had Battier and Lewis start. They needed the spacing for James. Now that those are Bosh's touches, they are back to being able to play a center next to him. The Spurs are much closer to the former era than the latter in terms of personnel.



Elbow jumpers and PnPs are no longer adequate spacing. Most teams employ a big who can shoot threes now. LMA is much closer to being the other big than he is to being the stretch-four.

Oberto was/is 6-10 and couldn't shoot, therefore he was a center, on offense, by default.

They and everyone else still need someone who does what Duncan does. They're not getting one of the half dozen floor spacing/rim protecting power forwards. If they were, this whole thing would be moot.

Guys like Antic and Tavares are fringe players; of course they're not going to start over Smith and now Millsap. Again, by this logic, Duncan is a power forward.

True, from the '12 series against the Pacers on, they wanted to optimize the spacing around James, in part because Wade was not an ideal wing compliment. Still, there were searching for a center the entire era.

Like I said, Aldridge re-expanding his range will probably be a focus in the summer. We're talking about the first six minutes of each half and then it would depend on match-ups, who's playing well, etc. Beyond that, Diaw, Anderson and Bertans, will be play making/small ball/stretch power forward options. This is the best chance to remain elite on both sides of the ball.

[Chinook]

Oberto was/is 6-10 and couldn't shoot, therefore he was a center, on offense, by default.

And LMA is 6-11 and protected the rim and rebounded better. Sounds like a center by your standard, unless you're suggesting that LMA needs someone who can't shoot next to him.

They and everyone else still need someone who does what Duncan does. They're not getting one of the half dozen floor spacing/rim protecting power forwards. If they were, this whole thing would be moot

You make it sound like the great rim-protecting centers are flooding the market right now. They aren't any more available than the PFs you mentioned. The best defensive center possibly on the FA market is Amir Johnson, who himself is more of a shooter than a "traditional center". If you're talking about trades, Jerami Grant is probably available for cheap, and he's a shot-blocking combo-forward who is getting a decent three going. Either of those guys is better than getting plodders just for the of it, or taking on Henson's deal.

Guys like Antic and Tavares are fringe players; of course they're not going to start over Smith and now Millsap. Again, by this logic, Duncan is a power forward.

The Hawks don't think they're playing Horford out of position; that's the point. They aren't concerned with getting a different five. That's why they signed the guys they did. The Spurs just wanted to get the best bigs next to Duncan as they could, which is why they were keen to change so often. In back-to-back years they used their MLEs on bigs, one being a PF and the other being a center. Both guys were expected to start next to Tim. That's as clear of a precedent as any that the Spurs will focus on getting talent over perceived fit.

True, from the '12 series against the Pacers on, they wanted to optimize the spacing around James, in part because Wade was not an ideal wing compliment. Still, there were searching for a center the entire era.

They were searching for a back-up center who could defend and slide into big-ball lineups. Pretty much the inverse of the minutes you were suggesting. What they wanted was a combo-forward in a good way, a guy who could space the floor on offense and defend fours on defense. The closest they got to that was Battier.

The Spurs have to maximize the spacing around Kawhi and LMA. Green and LMA's mid-range shots are just not enough.

Like I said, Aldridge re-expanding his range will probably be a focus in the summer. We're talking about the first six minutes of each half and then it would depend on match-ups, who's playing well, etc. Beyond that, Diaw, Anderson and Bertans, will be play making/small ball/stretch power forward options. This is the best chance to remain elite on both sides of the ball.

The issue with the concept of spacing that I think most people overlook is that spacers aren't supposed to be big scorers. When Green shoots 2-5, 3-6, 1-2, 3-5, he's doing what he's supposed to do. You want guys who teams have to guard or else they give up efficient looks. That's the reason why guys like Bosh and Love are marginalized when playing next to Lebron. You can't be a star stretch-big. LMA being able to shoot a three is fine, but making that anything other than a rare part of his shot-selection will make him a less effective scorer. You don't want him spacing the floor for a worse big, and especially not for an Oberto type.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Per NBA.com 5-man lineups :

Aldridge,LaMarcus - Duncan,Tim - Green,Danny - Leonard,Kawhi - Parker,Tony OffRtg : 102.6 DefRtg: 96.9 NetRtg: 5.7
Aldridge,LaMarcus - West,David - Green,Danny - Leonard,Kawhi - Parker,Tony OffRtg : 106.3 DefRtg: 96.3 NetRtg: 10.0
Aldridge,LaMarcus - Diaw,Boris - Green,Danny - Leonard,Kawhi - Parker,Tony OffRtg : 117.5 DefRtg: 98.3 NetRtg: 19.2

This current iteration of the Spurs play better with a non-traditional center next to Aldridge. Otherwise called a PF.

[pgardn]

Your credibility is lost when you call LMA a center.

He may be a true center in a game that is shifting towards guard play and 3s.

[cutewizard]

Spurs fans are the best in the world

so intelligent..............

[cutewizard]

In Pop (and Buford) we shall trust

they shall discover someone truly interesting

someone revolutionary to the game

the true counterpoint to Curry

THIS IS PROPHESY!

[palangi]

And LMA is 6-11 and protected the rim and rebounded better. Sounds like a center by your standard, unless you're suggesting that LMA needs someone who can't shoot next to him.




You make it sound like the great rim-protecting centers are flooding the market right now. They aren't any more available than the PFs you mentioned. The best defensive center possibly on the FA market is Amir Johnson, who himself is more of a shooter than a "traditional center". If you're talking about trades, Jerami Grant is probably available for cheap, and he's a shot-blocking combo-forward who is getting a decent three going. Either of those guys is better than getting plodders just for the of it, or taking on Henson's deal.



The Hawks don't think they're playing Horford out of position; that's the point. They aren't concerned with getting a different five. That's why they signed the guys they did. The Spurs just wanted to get the best bigs next to Duncan as they could, which is why they were keen to change so often. In back-to-back years they used their MLEs on bigs, one being a PF and the other being a center. Both guys were expected to start next to Tim. That's as clear of a precedent as any that the Spurs will focus on getting talent over perceived fit.



They were searching for a back-up center who could defend and slide into big-ball lineups. Pretty much the inverse of the minutes you were suggesting. What they wanted was a combo-forward in a good way, a guy who could space the floor on offense and defend fours on defense. The closest they got to that was Battier.

The Spurs have to maximize the spacing around Kawhi and LMA. Green and LMA's mid-range shots are just not enough.



The issue with the concept of spacing that I think most people overlook is that spacers aren't supposed to be big scorers. When Green shoots 2-5, 3-6, 1-2, 3-5, he's doing what he's supposed to do. You want guys who teams have to guard or else they give up efficient looks. That's the reason why guys like Bosh and Love are marginalized when playing next to Lebron. You can't be a star stretch-big. LMA being able to shoot a three is fine, but making that anything other than a rare part of his shot-selection will make him a less effective scorer. You don't want him spacing the floor for a worse big, and especially not for an Oberto type.

Then why did the Hawks trade for Splitter? If he doesn't get hurt then Horford is playing more 4.

[Chinook]

Then why did the Hawks trade for Splitter? If he doesn't get hurt then Horford is playing more 4.

Playing more four and starting at the four are two different things. We all agree that LMA will play some four and some five next year. We are just debating which one he will/should play more.

But Atlanta trading for Splitter is a strange example. They needed a third big (as they were riding with guys like Antic and Scott and Muscala. So getting a defensive center for free isn't really a bad thing. Doesn't suggest they were getting him to be their starter.

[DrSteffo]

Oberto was not a C and LMA is more of a C? That's just not true.

[Chinook]

Oberto was not a C and LMA is more of a C? That's just not true.

The point is that trying to put LMA into a strict box isn't going to work. If Oberto was a C because of his rebounding and rim-protection, then LMA is more of a C, because he does both of those things better and is bigger. If Fabre was a center because he couldn't shoot, then I don't see why it's virtuous to get a center next to LMA. It doesn't make sense to pass up guys like Jones or Sullinger because you think LMA needs a true center next to him regardless of the rarity of guys who fit that polyphyletic definition while also being good players.

[DrSteffo]

Not agreeing at all about LMA being better at those things than Oberto. Oberto was a true C. Great at setting picks.

[cd021]

I think Duncan returns but if he doesn't i would like Hibbert if we could get him at around $10,000,000 on a 2 year deal. He can still protect the basket and his stock is rather low right now. He wouldn't nee to play a big role, something like 25 mpg.


Parker-Mills-McCullum
Green-Ginobili-Simmons
Leonard-Anderson-Bertans
Aldride-Diaw-West
Hibbert-Marjanovic

[Kawhitstorm]

Looking forward to the Spurs signing a 6'6 guy, listing him as a center next to Aldridge and people claiming victory on this Aldridge's not a center debate

Seriously, post Duncan the Spurs will go for the best available big they can get and play him next to Aldridge, then work around the fit offensively and defensively. Doesn't matter who's listed as a PF and who's a C - offensively, unless there are rule changes, that other guy should be able to shoot some, and defensively that other guy should be mobile enough. Ideally, that is. Not sure how people expect the Spurs to get a traditional C, put him close to the rim defensively and expect a 33 year old Aldridge to chase the Draymond Greens around the perimeter.

Last I checked, it wasn't Draymond that destroyed the Spurs (they didn't even run much of the Draymond/Curry PnR) but rather Curry eviscerating Porker & the Spurs lack of rim protectors. Pop can just start West rather than signing another PF who won't be able to do a thing against Curry b/c PFs can't stick with him.

The only way to beat the Worriers is to go at Curry on the other end just like Chris Paul & either get him in foul trouble or use up energy rather than hide on a spot up shooter like Danny or washed up Porker. PATFO should be investing on a guy like Fournier & draft GPII then roll out the GPII/Fournier/Kawhi lineup & force Curry to play D while having GPII full court press Curry like Avery Bradley did eariler this season.

Porker/Danny play well together so bring them off the bench & have Danny guard Iggy while Porker plays the Manu role. Hopefully, Fathead will be able to defend Livingston.

As far as rim protection:
-It would be nice to have someone like Ian but he's playing well in a contract year
-Pau/LMA would be a disaster on defense & Pau disappears if the offense isn't running through him
-Not sure Noah will sign for the MLE (assuming Fournier eats up the cap)
-Wouldn't touch Hibbert for anything more than the vet min to be the 5th big if someone steals Boban
-So the most viable option is Mozgov if his stock plummets like 2014 Hibbert

In any case, I highly doubt PATFO would pay Fournier more than 10 mill nor would Pop bench Porker. (Although I'm hopefully they will draft GPII & recruit Noah)

[Chinook]

Not agreeing at all about LMA being better at those things than Oberto. Oberto was a true C. Great at setting picks.

It's pretty objective that the things TD21 listed when describing why LMA wasn't a true center are things that LMA does better than Oberto did. You can totally have different criteria from him -- and honestly I think you should -- but that's a different discussion.

[Chinook]

I think Duncan returns but if he doesn't i would like Hibbert if we could get him at around $10,000,000 on a 2 year deal. He can still protect the basket and his stock is rather low right now. He wouldn't nee to play a big role, something like 25 mpg.


Parker-Mills-McCullum
Green-Ginobili-Simmons
Leonard-Anderson-Bertans
Aldride-Diaw-West
Hibbert-Marjanovic

I don't want anyone on a two-year deal (except Boban if it's cheap and Bertans if it's necessary), honestly. The timing is just wrong. There are much better bigs available in 2017, and the Spurs shouldn't commit to Hibbert or anyone like him in lieu of exploring those options.

[cd021]

Per NBA.com 5-man lineups :

Aldridge,LaMarcus - Duncan,Tim - Green,Danny - Leonard,Kawhi - Parker,Tony OffRtg : 102.6 DefRtg: 96.9 NetRtg: 5.7
Aldridge,LaMarcus - West,David - Green,Danny - Leonard,Kawhi - Parker,Tony OffRtg : 106.3 DefRtg: 96.3 NetRtg: 10.0
Aldridge,LaMarcus - Diaw,Boris - Green,Danny - Leonard,Kawhi - Parker,Tony OffRtg : 117.5 DefRtg: 98.3 NetRtg: 19.2

This current iteration of the Spurs play better with a non-traditional center next to Aldridge. Otherwise called a PF.

That matches what I thought about Duncan and Aldrige playing together. They don't play as well together as West/Diaw and Aldridge do. With West and Diaw playing along side LMA, it allows for Aldridge to be posted by West and Diaw with more space to work with. The @ Miami game was a perfect example of that.

I think it has to do with the spacing. If this were the 11-12 Duncan, who was an excellent midrange shooter then they would be deadly together but at least in the games i've seen the spacing is closer to the Ducan Splitter pairing than I would have thought.

[DrSteffo]

It's pretty objective that the things TD21 listed when describing why LMA wasn't a true center are things that LMA does better than Oberto did. You can totally have different criteria from him -- and honestly I think you should -- but that's a different discussion.

Maybe, just maybe it's diferent to play with Duncan now? Of course any big paired with old Duncan will get better stats than a support big with prime Duncan. You are a good poster and I think you understand this.

[Chinook]

Maybe, just maybe it's diferent to play with Duncan now? Of course any big paired with old Duncan will get better stats than a support big with prime Duncan. You are a good poster and I thin you understand this.

That completely sells LMA short and overrates what Oberto was. Fabre averaged less that a quarter of a block a game. He wasn't a rim-protector. LMA outrebounded him on the defensive end by a wide margin. These are things that TD21 said LMA couldn't do because he wasn't a true center. My point isn't that Oberto wasn't a center, which you still seem to believe. It's that the idea that LMA isn't a long-term candidate at the five based on his abilities is wrong.

And LMA next to Prime Duncan still gets his points. No way the Spurs pass up having two great offensive bigs who can guard either position. It may have meant bye-bye to Parker and Manu, but Aldridge would have even better numbers if he were part of a Prime Twin Towers.

[cd021]

I don't want anyone on a two-year deal (except Boban if it's cheap and Bertans if it's necessary), honestly. The timing is just wrong. There are much better bigs available in 2017, and the Spurs shouldn't commit to Hibbert or anyone like him in lieu of exploring those options.

I agree with the timing. The Spurs won't have the necessary cap unless both Duncan and Manu retires or Duncan retires and they cut Diaw loose. I do think that this is a solid big man FA summer but I'd be just a fine with rolling with the same bigs as this season minus Duncan. League is increasingly going smaller and smaller, spacing and versatility is more valuable than just having size.

In that scenario Anderson could see some time at PF, giving the spurs five bigs. Spurs could go with a West/ LMA pairing with Anderson, Diaw and Boban making up the bench units front court.

[DrSteffo]

And LMA next to Prime Duncan still gets his points. No way the Spurs pass up having two great offensive bigs who can guard either position. It may have meant bye-bye to Parker and Manu, but Aldridge would have even better numbers if he were part of a Prime Twin Towers.

No way. With Duncan in his prime LMA would certainly not get his points and he is certainly not a 5. He can work as a 4/5 big in the Spurs system though but I would certainy look for a 5 rather than a 4 going forward.

[Chinook]

No way. With Duncan in his prime LMA would certainly not get his points and he is certainly not a 5. He can work as a 4/5 big in the Spurs system though but I would certainy look for a 5 rather than a 4 going forward.

The Spurs' system isn't the thing that makes him a five. If anything, it's what's keeping him as a four. Jackson wanted him to play the five in the Triangle; he was going to be a five in Dallas and LA. About half the teams wanted him as a five, about about half were willing to let him play the four. Only certain systems allow him to be a four, as the league-wide trend is for faster fours who can shoot.

And you make it sound like no one else scored when Tim was in his prime. He would have relished having a high-low partner he could switch with. Would LMA have gotten a lot of left-block touches with Tim on the floor? Doubtful, but he would have gotten all he could eat on the block when Tim sat (since the team was set up for that), and while playing with Tim, he'd a much better floor-spacer (at the time) than the guys Tim had trotted out with him. He could have gotten quite a few midrange shots.

Essentially, LMA would have been the clear second option and a better McDyess.

[DrSteffo]

I don't really understand all this tbh. LMA can shoot so it's better to get a rim protector. I'm a university professor and not stupid. I just learned to focus on the basics and avoid verbal masturbation.