Kawhi should be the MVP of the league

[midnightpulp]

Ehh, I view the "most important to his team" as sort of a tiebreaker if two guys are relatively even in terms of production. When you have someone like Curry who's breaking records left and right and on pace to have a top 5 season of all-time, it's just not a question.

And fwiw, I still disagree with the idea that Kawhi is more important to the Spurs than Curry is to GS. Look at it this way: you agree that the Spurs as of now are longshots to beat GS in a series, yeah? What if you took off Kawhi and Curry from each team? Would you still consider the Spurs as longshots to win?

On the limited evidence we have (blown out by a Griffin-less Clippers team, and giving up 112ppg to two of the worst teams in the league), I think Golden State minus Curry is a better team than the Spurs without Leonard.

Even their advanced metrics (other than PER, which mostly considers offensive production) aren't that far apart. What makes Kawhi's case for me is Raymond being on that team, who is a top 5-7 player himself. The myth is that Curry made Draymond, but the Warriors did jack until Draymond came of age. Not to mention Klay perfectly complements Curry.

[SpursFan86]

Even their advanced metrics (other than PER, which mostly considers offensive production) aren't that far apart.

Sorry but this just really isn't true.

PER: Curry - 32.9 (would set the record), Kawhi = 26.0
WS/48: Curry - .340 (would set the record), Kawhi = .287
BPM: Curry - 13.3 (would set the record), Kawhi = 8.1
VORP: Curry - 7.3, Kawhi = 4.5
RPM: Curry - 10.35, Kawhi = 8.93 (that difference is almost as much as the difference between Kawhi and 6th place Chris Paul)

Warriors with Draymond and Klay both playing, no Curry: Net RTG = +2.5
Warriors with all 3 playing: Net RTG = +21.8

I'm just not seeing it man. I love Kawhi and I think he has a good argument over anyone else in the league...but not Curry. As it is now, there's no MVP race.

[midnightpulp]

Sorry but this just really isn't true.

PER: Curry - 32.9 (would set the record), Kawhi = 26.0
WS/48: Curry - .340 (would set the record), Kawhi = .287
BPM: Curry - 13.3 (would set the record), Kawhi = 8.1
VORP: Curry - 7.3, Kawhi = 4.5
RPM: Curry - 10.35, Kawhi = 8.93 (that difference is almost as much as the difference between Kawhi and 6th place Chris Paul)

Warriors with Draymond and Klay both playing, no Curry: Net RTG = +2.5
Warriors with all 3 playing: Net RTG = +21.8

I'm just not seeing it man. I love Kawhi and I think he has a good argument over anyone else in the league...but not Curry. As it is now, there's no MVP race.

We can throw PER out since it doesn't consider defense. BPM also doesn't consider defense. I also expect their respective RPMs to be much closer by the end of the season. Kawhi actually does have a higher ORTG/DRTG spread than Curry. No doubt Curry is having a historic, historic season, but we can't just discount Draymond wholesale. They were a 51 win team before he became a starter in 2015 in which they pretty much cruised to the le. Another thing that favors Kawhi is the fact he has to carry a significant two way load every night, guarding positions 1-4 while also being the primary wing scorer. He's the only elite wing/guard in the league who has no real complementary wing/guard scorer to help relieve the scoring burden he's tasked with (Tony is that guy on some nights, but he's nowhere near the threat Klay is).

I've always agreed that the MVP should go to the best player, so I'm for Curry winning it, but if it's still going to a good team's most important player, I simply think Kawhi is more important right now, especially with Manu (who's our second best perimeter player after Kawhi) out.

Aa good as advanced metrics are, they still can't really measure defensive impact all that accurately. Defensive impact is still an "eye test" thing, and Kawhi is quietly as historically great a wing defender as Curry is historically great a shooter. I've maintained peak Kawhi is the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, just like peak Curry right now is the best shooter we've ever seen.

[daledondale]

Homer fans are cute tbh

[SpursFan86]

We can throw PER out since it doesn't consider defense. BPM also doesn't consider defense. I also expect their respective RPMs to be much closer by the end of the season. Kawhi actually does have a higher ORTG/DRTG spread than Curry. No doubt Curry is having a historic, historic season, but we can't just discount Draymond wholesale. They were a 51 win team before he became a starter in 2015 in which they pretty much cruised to the le. Another thing that favors Kawhi is the fact he has to carry a significant two way load every night, guarding positions 1-4 while also being the primary wing scorer. He's the only elite wing/guard in the league who has no real complementary wing/guard scorer to help relieve the scoring burden he's tasked with (Tony is that guy on some nights, but he's nowhere near the threat Klay is).

I've always agreed that the MVP should go to the best player, so I'm for Curry winning it, but if it's still going to a good team's most important player, I simply think Kawhi is more important right now, especially with Manu (who's our second best perimeter player after Kawhi) out.

Aa good as advanced metrics are, they still can't really measure defensive impact all that accurately. Defensive impact is still an "eye test" thing, and Kawhi is quietly as historically great a wing defender as Curry is historically great a shooter. I've maintained peak Kawhi is the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, just like peak Curry right now is the best shooter we've ever seen.

Curry is the best shooter ever bar-none...no one else is even sniffing him in that aspect. I'm fine with someone saying Kawhi is arguably the greatest wing defender we've seen, but no way can you say he's at great as perimeter defense as Curry is at shooting. That essentially means you think Kawhi's perimeter defense blows everyone else's out of the water, which is a pretty big reach.

Kawhi carries a big load, sure, but he also gets to benefit from having the best bench in the league. When Kawhi goes to the bench, he doesn't have to constantly worry about his team falling apart and losing leads. I mean the Spurs have a +10 net rating even without Kawhi...that's just insane. The Spurs have plenty of great lineups that don't include Kawhi; basically every Warriors lineup that doesn't feature Curry is average at best. And if you're going to talk about how Kawhi has no complementary wing/guard scorer, it's only fair to also bring up how he has quite a bit of help defensively. He has another great wing defender in Green who can guard the opposing team's best player for long stretches, and one of the GOAT rim protectors in Duncan.

Saying the Warriors were only a 51-win team in 2014 is a bit disingenuous. They had a really good point differential that year (were 4th in SRS) and that was with Iguodala (who, btw, is probably the guy who gets underrated the most on that team) missing 20 games. They took the Clippers (57 wins, 2nd in SRS) to 7 games in the playoffs without HCA or Bogut. They were much better than their record made them out to be.

[midnightpulp]

Curry is the best shooter ever bar-none...no one else is even sniffing him in that aspect. I'm fine with someone saying Kawhi is arguably the greatest wing defender we've seen, but no way can you say he's at great as perimeter defense as Curry is at shooting. That essentially means you think Kawhi's perimeter defense blows everyone else's out of the water, which is a pretty big reach.

Kawhi carries a big load, sure, but he also gets to benefit from having the best bench in the league. When Kawhi goes to the bench, he doesn't have to constantly worry about his team falling apart and losing leads. I mean the Spurs have a +10 net rating even without Kawhi...that's just insane. The Spurs have plenty of great lineups that don't include Kawhi; basically every Warriors lineup that doesn't feature Curry is average at best. And if you're going to talk about how Kawhi has no complementary wing/guard scorer, it's only fair to also bring up how he has quite a bit of help defensively. He has another great wing defender in Green who can guard the opposing team's best player for long stretches, and one of the GOAT rim protectors in Duncan.

Saying the Warriors were only a 51-win team in 2014 is a bit disingenuous. They had a really good point differential that year (were 4th in SRS) and that was with Iguodala (who, btw, is probably the guy who gets underrated the most on that team) missing 20 games. They took the Clippers (57 wins, 2nd in SRS) to 7 games in the playoffs without HCA or Bogut. They were much better than their record made them out to be.

I would say Kawhi's perimeter defense is on par with how superior it is to his peers (currently) as Curry's shooting is relative to his peers. And when you take into consideration the rule changes and the wing/guard depth of today, perimeter defenders are challenged much more than they were in Pippen's day. And Kawhi is going to break 96 DRTG for the 2nd consecutive year. I don't think a wing in the modern era has ever done that (not even Scottie, who had Jordan, who is a much a better perimeter defender than Danny Green). Now "on par" doesn't mean equal, but Kawhi is a historically great perimeter defender. And when you consider he also has to carry an offensive load (he carries much more of an offensive load than Curry does a defensive load), I just think he's more of a centerpiece to the Spurs than Curry is a centerpiece to the Warriors.

You make a good point about Duncan. He seems to generate low defensive ratings for wings he plays with, so there's definitely a synergy there.

Citing Iggy also further proves my point about how perfectly that roster complements Curry. GS have a load of wings/guards they can use to swarm opposing defenses, while minimizing Curry's defensive load to the lowest threshold possible. Then in addition to that, they have great rim protection and a post defender in Bogut, and also one of the more versatile defenders in the league in Raymond. Curry is basically free to devote every ounce of energy to shooting/scoring. I don't think he lights it up to this extent on the Clippers if you replaced Paul with him.

My argument is definitely qualitative, so I can't prove anything, but the god awful performances against the Suns and Lakers went a long way in convincing me. Kawhi then returns and we're back to holding opponents to 90 points.

[blizz]

Not even close. Sorry. Love the klaw but what e did last night was crazy and it's not a one time thing. There's new crazy from him every other night. It remains to be seen if he can do this for a career but he is having one of the top two or three seasons in nba history.

[Kawhitstorm]

It's so nice to have a Spur there again.

WestBrick over Choke-P3

[Kawhitstorm]

Not even close. Sorry. Love the klaw but what e did last night was crazy and it's not a one time thing. There's new crazy from him every other night. It remains to be seen if he can do this for a career but he is having one of the top two or three seasons in nba history.

The only chance Kawhi has is if he outplays or at least neutralizes Curry (ala Durant) while the Spurs sweep their remaining 3 games with the Worriers which would give the Spurs a shot at the #1 seed.

[midnightpulp]

RPM was just updated:

Wardell: 10.12

Kawhi: 9.62

Yes, yes, Wardell is having the best statistical season in NBA history, but he carries zero defensive load. None. He's paired in the backcourt with a top 3 SG, who is a nightly threat to score 30, meaning Wardell, as historically great an offense player he is, has a running mate that can take the pressure off him offensively. Kawhi basically IS the perimeter scoring on the Spurs. Raymond, as big of a got as he is, is arguably the most unique player in NBA history, and also arguably a top 5 player in the league himself. I don't buy the notion that Curry made Draymond. It's a symbiotic relationship. LMA has indeed been great, but Draymond is simply a more versatile player.

Yes, Kawhi does have some heavyweights he gets to run with on the defensive end in Tim Duncan and Danny Green, but look at how the defense fell apart in Kawhi's absence.

Wardell is obviously the best player in the league and he should be the MVP (since I do believe it should go to the best player), but the race is objectively closer than it seems (Wardell shouldn't win by a mega-landslide), and if the Spurs manage to go 2-2 against the Warriors this season, with Kawhi coming big, I think an argument can be made, not nationally of course, since Media has already handed Curry the award, but it'll make for an interest debate on forums and such.

[DMC]

No way anyone gets the MVP over Curry. The fact that his team is good without him should sway votes but not enough. The fact that they are coming off a championship should mean the team was already at a level prior to this season, but it won't. Warriors didn't bring in a franchise level big like SA did, so the fact they have that gawdy record is going to be enough. People cannot even really judge his shooting, it's unprecedented.

[spursistan]

Guess the debate should be shut close after last night..Curry is in a different stratosphere, at least for this season.

Kawhi, though, is neck-and-neck with LBJ/KD for the race to finish second best..I think Lebron and Durant are actually having a better season-ending stretch.

[dabom]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus

RK	NAME	TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WINS
1	Stephen Curry, PG	GS	78	34.2	7.64	1.28	8.92	21.10
2	Kawhi Leonard, SF	SA	71	33.0	4.07	4.51	8.58	17.00
3	LeBron James, SF	CLE	75	35.7	5.86	2.55	8.41	18.73
4	Draymond Green, PF	GS	80	34.7	3.54	4.73	8.27	20.65
5	Russell Westbrook, PG	OKC	79	34.5	6.93	0.96	7.89	19.14
6	Chris Paul, PG	LAC	73	32.8	6.09	1.75	7.84	16.53
7	Kyle Lowry, PG	TOR	76	37.2	5.15	1.44	6.59	16.60
8	Nikola Jokic, C	DEN	79	21.5	2.31	3.79	6.10	9.54
9	Kevin Durant, SF	OKC	71	35.9	5.33	0.74	6.07	14.91

[midnightpulp]

Guess the debate should be shut close after last night..Curry is in a different stratosphere, at least for this season.

Kawhi, though, is neck-and-neck with LBJ/KD for the race to finish second best..I think Lebron and Durant are actually having a better season-ending stretch.

It is, unfortunately. He really needed a statement game against those gots.

[SpursFan86]

I think it goes Curry-LeBron-Kawhi-KD-CP3...could see an argument for Westbrook over CP3, but I give the edge to CP3 because he's had far less help this year and still led LAC to 53-54 wins.

[spursistan]

my Kawhi still not there yet ..Curry is simply in unreal..

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are ting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..

[Darius Bieber]

Am I the only one who hates the Warrior's playstyle? Watching their players just chuck up threes isn't exciting to me and just ruins basketball.

[SAGirl]

my Kawhi still not there yet ..Curry is simply in unreal..

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are ting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..

Agree. A game in which his costar LMA scored a very efficient 41 points should have been a win in any scenario if Kawhi had been better.

[BillMc]

Agree. A game in which his costar LMA scored a very efficient 41 points should have been a win in any scenario if Kawhi had been better.

This

[Kawhitstorm]

my Kawhi still not there yet ..Curry is simply in unreal..

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are ting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..

Kawhi is going through the same growing pain Curry went through last postseason but he still plays elite defense.

[Killakobe81]

One thing that should help Kawhi's case (it won't because the media is re ed) is that he has no perimeter running mates that are all-star worthy. Having 2 perimeter studs in today's game is as important as having two frontline studs/deep frontline was in the Lakers/Spurs era. Durant has Westbrook. Curry has Klay. Lebron has Kyrie. Kawhi has Danny Green (great defender, yes, but his offensive game is such , he can't take the pressure off Kawhi for stretches like Westbrook can with Durant or Klay can with Curry) and/or an inconsistent Tony Parker.

Kawhi carries more load than any other wing/guard in the league.

None of that mattered ... Steph was and is the MVP.
KL being a top 5 player, backtoback DPOTY and first team all NBA is enough recognition of his great play.
Steph is the MVP of this year and it's not even close.
Only Jordan and Lebron have posted a higher season in PER and you may not like that advanced metric but it' just as valid as any other they all have flaws.

[baseline bum]

Am I the only one who hates the Warrior's playstyle? Watching their players just chuck up threes isn't exciting to me and just ruins basketball.

No, you're probably not the only butthurt got.

[Killakobe81]

No, you're probably not the only butthurt got.

[YGWHI]

Agree. A game in which his costar LMA scored a very efficient 41 points should have been a win in any scenario if Kawhi had been better.

This

Am I the only worried about this?

When LMA scored 41 points, Kawhi scored 14, and the Spurs lost.

When Durant scored 41 points, Westbrook 14, and the Thunder won.

Most people think this series is about Kawhi/LMA vs Durant/Westbrook, but it's about their role players outplaying ours.

[SAGirl]

Am I the only worried about this?

When LMA scored 41 points, Kawhi scored 14, and the Spurs lost.

When Durant scored 41 points, Westbrook 14, and the Thunder won.

Most people think this series is about Kawhi/LMA vs Durant/Westbrook, but it's about their role players outplaying ours.

We are built on defense and Timmy not being able to stay on the court is a huge blow. We can't stop anybody if we don't rebound.