ESPN: Spurs Emerging as Favorites to Sign Kevin Martin

[dabom]

no that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying his usage rate will drop, he will have less touches assisted or not, naturally your shooting % is usually better because your shot selection is better (see Parker Tony for instance). I'm also saying his mid range jumpers inefficiency at .38 is irrelevant... You said he will play same role as Beli and I'm fine with that, Beli was shooting in average two mid range per game so yeah getting .38 out of them or .45 won't change much the outcome of a game. Then I'd be curious to see the numbers showing he is shooting better when not assisted, I believe if you make that call, you must have something to back it up.



Or like West he is too old for 20 mpg and 9 FGAs per game. I just don't see how this logic would work for West but not for Mart. Parker is shooting better this year than previous years and he is not getting more lay ups than before, his role is just different with less load to carry and less minutes resulting in a better shot selection, less fatigue then better efficiency. Again I don't see why this could not apply for a guy like KMart.



Not sure why bringing jimmer into that, different player, different role, different age, different everything actually. I'm fine with you saying dude sucks and he is not a good fit but bringing his FG% of his season with Minny is irrelevant.





No I believe the way Spurs will use him as low usage rate coming off the bench for 10/15 mpg ala Beli shooting 3s he could be useful for a vet min price. I also say who cares about his mid range JS for 2 FGAs ? I also say .37 is not a bad % from 3 even though it is inferior to team's average that has anyway a low % of 3s FGAs compared to previous seasons. Are you implying with the Spurs he could not average 2-3 FGAs at .37 and he will become TOV prone or something ? You take him because its cheap, because he can shoot 3s and you are lacking 3s and he can bring the ball to half court without losing it.

[Chinook]

Not sure why bringing jimmer into that, different player, different role, different age, different everything actually. I'm fine with you saying dude sucks and he is not a good fit but bringing his FG% of his season with Minny is irrelevant.

Honestly, this is the entire hangup. If you don't understand the specifics of Martin's game, then you don't really have an argument either way. You're only arguing generalities like that Martin will be better if he takes fewer shots or has someone give him good looks. And that's pretty much assuming the system would make him a good player. You can keep denying it and then just restating it in different words, but it's true.

Martin has mechanical issues that limit his effectiveness on offense. When he has the ball in his hands, he's able to compensate by getting his own shots, getting to the foul line, etc. But spotting up, he has trouble because there are certain spots on the floor where he literally can't get off his shot consistently. One of those spots is the corner, and it's miserable for a Spurs' player to not be able to slide to that corner three. That is how he's like Jimmer. Difference between them as shooters is that Martin's release is faster but also off to the side. Both are low in terms of where they hold the ball. So Jimmer has a crazy-low percentage of assisted threes. Martin is not nearly as bad, but he also has a whole side of the floor where he's a below-average shooter.

When you say, "Martin will be better when he can focus on spotting up," it's kinda like saying, "Danny will be better when he can focus on driving." It's not using him to his strengths. He's only a good spot-up guy from the left wing (and right wing every other year for some reason). So he'd be the guy entering the ball into the post. But his release is still slow, so rather than having Green or Mills use their gravity to discourage help on the post-up, you have Martin's much lower gravity. And because of that release, he'll find himself run off three-point line, which is where his two-point percentage and below average A:TO come in.

This just like Jimmer. People just assumed that having a high percentage meant he was a good spot-up guy. And he would fit the Spurs because, , the Spurs have spot-up guys, right? It's not that simple. It wouldn't surprise me at all if one of Martin's issues this season is that the guys around him are better and he's struggling as a lower option.

[Brazil]

thanks mate... appreciated

[dabom]

thanks mate... appreciated

[dabom]

chinook going in a tangent per par.

[BatManu20]

Damn 16 pages and counting. Solid

[Brazil]

Honestly, this is the entire hangup. If you don't understand the specifics of Martin's game, then you don't really have an argument either way. You're only arguing generalities like that Martin will be better if he takes fewer shots or has someone give him good looks. And that's pretty much assuming the system would make him a good player. You can keep denying it and then just restating it in different words, but it's true.

Martin has mechanical issues that limit his effectiveness on offense. When he has the ball in his hands, he's able to compensate by getting his own shots, getting to the foul line, etc. But spotting up, he has trouble because there are certain spots on the floor where he literally can't get off his shot consistently. One of those spots is the corner, and it's miserable for a Spurs' player to not be able to slide to that corner three. That is how he's like Jimmer. Difference between them as shooters is that Martin's release is faster but also off to the side. Both are low in terms of where they hold the ball. So Jimmer has a crazy-low percentage of assisted threes. Martin is not nearly as bad, but he also has a whole side of the floor where he's a below-average shooter.

When you say, "Martin will be better when he can focus on spotting up," it's kinda like saying, "Danny will be better when he can focus on driving." It's not using him to his strengths. He's only a good spot-up guy from the left wing (and right wing every other year for some reason). So he'd be the guy entering the ball into the post. But his release is still slow, so rather than having Green or Mills use their gravity to discourage help on the post-up, you have Martin's much lower gravity. And because of that release, he'll find himself run off three-point line, which is where his two-point percentage and below average A:TO come in.

This just like Jimmer. People just assumed that having a high percentage meant he was a good spot-up guy. And he would fit the Spurs because, , the Spurs have spot-up guys, right? It's not that simple.

Untill recently you were only arguing KMart sucks look at his stats in Minny, that's the whole start of this conversation, you don't evaluate a fit of a player based on past stats if you hire him to play a whole different role in your team. I'm still waiting where I can see that he is better when not assisted than when assisted btw.

For the rest, I understood the first time, you don't like him neither the idea to sign him for a vet deal. I, for one, think he cannot be worst than Matty and for min vet you take him for a limited role even if he does not improve at all his shot selection which would be . Spurs could surely use a wing capable to hit some 3s rather than a PF capable to only hit some sandwich in his sofa.

[Dex]

Damn 16 pages and counting. Solid

This is gonna become the new Jimmer Thread.

[dabom]

This is gonna become the new Jimmer Thread.

Gasol thread was like 20 pages a day.

[Chinook]

Untill recently you were only arguing KMart sucks look at his stats in Minny, .

No, that's the only part you took issue with. You argued that those stats were not good enough to determine his success because he could be better in another role. I then pointed out that that wasn't the point of me bringing up his stats. I was comparing him to other players to say that he has been bad this season (first in relation to Joseph then in relation to Butler). I didn't project those stats to his time with the Spurs. But for the past three posts, I have pointed out that you thinking he'd be better in a spot-up role is against his nature. You brought up West, and I argued why that didn't matter. I brought up Jimmer, and you didn't understand/acknowledge what he had to do with the discussion with Martin and his expanded role.

In short, the stats show that Martin's been bad this year. A whole host of issues (his whole career, as I said early on in our discourse) is why he's not a great fit.

For the rest, I understood the first time, you don't like him neither the idea to sign him for a vet deal.

Then you clearly didn't understand. I have never spoken out against him getting signed. I did speak out against the idea that he would or should be handed a rotation spot. That has been a stance I have repeated over and over in this thread, along with the fact that Butler is better than Martin. If you want to actually know, read the thread. It's not THAT long.

[Beaverfuzz]

you
Kevin Martin
That is all

[Chinook]

People always assume a Spurs bump, as if the system magically makes them better players. I imagine if the Spurs do want to sign Martin and give him minutes, they would give him the Beli touches. The issue is that he isn't a great spot-up guy unless he's on the left wing, and that limits his usefulness to the team (Spurs players in general already crowd the left side of the floor too much). Not to mention that his lower release point makes him less effective coming off screens (especially on the right side of the floor).

West was just in a bad position last year where he had to do it all while also coming back from an injury. In fact, in Indy in general West had to do too much, take too many shots. In SA, he's bee more selective about the long-twos he shoots. And he's getting more high-lows being on the court with Duncan and Diaw so much. He's just a much better offensive fit than Martin.



I totally think the two-pointers and free throws matter. As I said, he'll be coming in the Beli role. There were better spot-up guys to get, of they could just play Butler. They want someone who isn't just going to sit in the (left) corner and not put pressure on the defense. On paper, Martin can do a lot more with the ball than Green can. But in practice, his game is a little antiquated.



He has a career full of reasons to dismiss his signing. But his stats from this season show why he's not as good as people remember him being. I'm not against bringing him in (even proposed trading for him in a salary dump this off-season if the Spurs lost Manu and Tim. But he's not a rotation player right now.



He can physically hold onto a basketball, if that's what you mean. If you're asking him to be a worse version of Butler, I mean, you've already got Butler.

Seriously, Brazil, this is my first response to you. It is clearly not me just saying Martin sucks because stats.

[Beaverfuzz]

Seriously, Brazil, this is my first response to you. It is clearly not me just saying Martin sucks because stats.

Martin blows chunks. this guy.

[sasaint]

So, did Mozgov pick up the spare?!?!

[ceperez]

So, did Mozgov pick up the spare?!?!

Mosgov? That's Asik!

[sasaint]

Mosgov? That's Asik!

So it is! Whoever... Hilarious!

[coachmac87]

Seriously, Brazil, this is my first response to you. It is clearly not me just saying Martin sucks because stats.

No problem with saying Martin sucks...but saying Butler is the better player??

[TheDoctor]

This is why SpursTalk is the best Spurs forum/blog/community/whatever

[spurtech09]

By the comments in this thread Martin isn't signing with the Spurs?

[TheDoctor]

By the comments in this thread Martin isn't signing with the Spurs?

[spurtech09]

Have nothing else better to do I guess?

[TD 21]

I see a lot of predictable over analysis, from the usual suspects, who automatically don't want any player in their 30's, that used to be a prominent name.

As usual, they're missing the point. It's not about wanting Martin; it's about this team's needs and him being the best possible solution.

Ginobili is going to be out a while longer, which will give them time to evaluate Martin (if/when he get's bought out and signed) and Anderson in the rotation simultaneously. No decision has to be made yet. It's something that can work itself out in time.

[spurtech09]

I see a lot of predictable over analysis, from the usual suspects, who automatically don't want any player in their 30's, that used to be a prominent name.

As usual, they're missing the point. It's not about wanting Martin; it's about this team's needs and him being the best possible solution.

Ginobili is going to be out a while longer, which will give them time to evaluate Martin (if/when he get's bought out and signed) and Anderson in the rotation simultaneously. No decision has to be made yet. It's something that can work itself out in time.

+1

[cd98]

Tick tock...Sounds like Wolves want Kevin Martin to leave big bucks on the table. I wonder if a buyout will happen by tomorrow.

[Robz4000]

If Martin doesn't get a buyout I wouldn't be opposed to the Spurs going after Beno tbh.