Stein: Free agent guard Kevin Martin has agreed to join the San Antonio Spurs

[ElNono]

While I agree with the idea of being patient, I feel like your post is only looking at the situation from one perspective. It supposes that the "system" is something that is beyond the players when it's really far from true. The players make the system, not the other way around. While that's obvious when considering stars like Leonard and LMA, it's true even for role-players. The way the offense and team as a whole run with Mills at PG is completely different than when Tony is PG. Or having Manu instead of Green, West instead of Duncan or Diaw. Personnel dictates how the Spurs run their sets, who stands where and when, and how fast the ball moves.

Bringing in limited shooters like Martin might result in him having better looks and higher percentages. Or it could hinder the Spurs' offense by having a guy who doesn't like shooting from the corner rather than guys like Anderson or Simmons who like shooting from there. And it's even worse if Martin is playing next to Manu, as Ginobili doesn't like shooting from the corner either. No one in the corner limits passing lanes on drives. It clogs up the PnR. Add to the fact that Martin can only shoot on the left side, and he isn't that great at spacing the floor. So it's entirely possible that he'll hurt the system more than it'll help him, at least from a spot-shooting perspective.

Not sure I agree with all that. We're obviously no longer a monolithic team in the style we play, but that doesn't mean we don't try to do certain things that makes our players play to their strengths. Things like solid screens, ball movement, proper execution, passing up good for better shots, etc are the foundation of a lot of what we do, no matter who plays. It's true that certain players have more leeway to go ISO here and there, but you'll never call the Spurs an ISO team compared to the rest of the league. So, yeah, taking a higher percentage of uncontested looks vs contested looks can make you look better, and you get those with the extra pass, team discipline, etc.

If he still sucks missing wide open looks, then ok, that can happen, and he could be done.

[tholdren]

While I agree with the idea of being patient, I feel like your post is only looking at the situation from one perspective. It supposes that the "system" is something that is beyond the players when it's really far from true. The players make the system, not the other way around. While that's obvious when considering stars like Leonard and LMA, it's true even for role-players. The way the offense and team as a whole run with Mills at PG is completely different than when Tony is PG. Or having Manu instead of Green, West instead of Duncan or Diaw. Personnel dictates how the Spurs run their sets, who stands where and when, and how fast the ball moves.

Bringing in limited shooters like Martin might result in him having better looks and higher percentages. Or it could hinder the Spurs' offense by having a guy who doesn't like shooting from the corner rather than guys like Anderson or Simmons who like shooting from there. And it's even worse if Martin is playing next to Manu, as Ginobili doesn't like shooting from the corner either. No one in the corner limits passing lanes on drives. It clogs up the PnR. Add to the fact that Martin can only shoot on the left side, and he isn't that great at spacing the floor. So it's entirely possible that he'll hurt the system more than it'll help him, at least from a spot-shooting perspective.

The way the offense and team as a whole run with Mills at PG is completely different than when Tony is PG. Or having Manu instead of Green, West instead of Duncan or Diaw. Personnel dictates how the Spurs run their sets, who stands where and when, and how fast the ball moves.....

[Mal]

It could be Simmons vs Butler tonight. Green is sitting on purpose

[loveforthegame]

Quit leaving Acy open.

[Spurs9]

Kinda sad seeing Bonner on bench right now

[Chinook]

Not sure I agree with all that. We're obviously no longer a monolithic team in the style we play, but that doesn't mean we don't try to do certain things that makes our players play to their strengths. Things like solid screens, ball movement, proper execution, passing up good for better shots, etc are the foundation of a lot of what we do, no matter who plays. It's true that certain players have more leeway to go ISO here and there, but you'll never call the Spurs an ISO team compared to the rest of the league. So, yeah, taking a higher percentage of uncontested looks vs contested looks can make you look better, and you get those with the extra pass, team discipline, etc.

If he still sucks missing wide open looks, then ok, that can happen, and he could be done.

I feel like you completely ignored my point. It's not Martin will miss wide-open looks. He shouldn't do that very much (at least in the regular season), as he is a good shooter. It's that players have strengths and weaknesses, and the "system" is really just the gestalt that comes from combining those with core principles. That gestalt changes depending on who's in the game. Take a simple PnR from the Boban rolls on his picks; pretty much everyone else pops. Diaw will flare to the wing on his pops, while West will side to the elbow. LMA will slide toward the key most of the time. Mills will come off the screen looking to pull up, while Parker comes off looking to drive. Green will slide to the corner following the driver, while Manu will move toward the top of the arc. Those tendencies affect how well plays work, and the negative changes are usually mitigated due to someone else's positive changes.

Martin's weaknesses mean other players have to adjust to HIM getting the ball where he can be effective. He then has to be good enough in those spots to make the offense better or at least the same. It's not as simple as him getting Green's or Mills' looks and enjoying their success. I believe a guy like Eddie could shoot 50-plus percent from three with the Spurs, because he can shoot from anywhere. A guy like Martin can't. Big difference.

[tholdren]

I feel like you completely ignored my point. It's not Martin will miss wide-open looks. He shouldn't do that very much (at least in the regular season), as he is a good shooter. It's that players have strengths and weaknesses, and the "system" is really just the gestalt that comes from combining those with core principles. That gestalt changes depending on who's in the game. Take a simple PnR from the Boban rolls on his picks; pretty much everyone else pops. Diaw will flare to the wing on his pops, while West will side to the elbow. LMA will slide toward the key most of the time. Mills will come off the screen looking to pull up, while Parker comes off looking to drive. Green will slide to the corner following the driver, while Manu will move toward the top of the arc. Those tendencies affect how well plays work, and the negative changes are usually mitigated due to someone else's positive changes.

Martin's weaknesses mean other players have to adjust to HIM getting the ball where he can be effective. He then has to be good enough in those spots to make the offense better or at least the same. It's not as simple as him getting Green's or Mills' looks and enjoying their success. I believe a guy like Eddie could shoot 50-plus percent from three with the Spurs, because he can shoot from anywhere. A guy like Martin can't. Big difference.

fail

[ElNono]

I feel like you completely ignored my point. It's not Martin will miss wide-open looks. He shouldn't do that very much (at least in the regular season), as he is a good shooter. It's that players have strengths and weaknesses, and the "system" is really just the gestalt that comes from combining those with core principles. That gestalt changes depending on who's in the game. Take a simple PnR from the Boban rolls on his picks; pretty much everyone else pops. Diaw will flare to the wing on his pops, while West will side to the elbow. LMA will slide toward the key most of the time. Mills will come off the screen looking to pull up, while Parker comes off looking to drive. Green will slide to the corner following the driver, while Manu will move toward the top of the arc. Those tendencies affect how well plays work, and the negative changes are usually mitigated due to someone else's positive changes.

Martin's weaknesses mean other players have to adjust to HIM getting the ball where he can be effective. He then has to be good enough in those spots to make the offense better or at least the same. It's not as simple as him getting Green's or Mills' looks and enjoying their success. I believe a guy like Eddie could shoot 50-plus percent from three with the Spurs, because he can shoot from anywhere. A guy like Martin can't. Big difference.

I didn't, I just think we don't necessarily agree with what makes "the system". What you describe as "the system" is what I call style of play, which, IMO, it's still the same system, we're just executing different plays within that system which play to the current's lineup perceived strengths. The Spurs play a ton of choreographed basketball, regardless if they're playing small ball or have the big frontline out there, that's "the system" to me. What you're describing (as far as I understand) is that there are no plays within the Spurs offensive system that can make a scorer like Martin look good, and I would just disagree with that. We have plays coming off screens for Kawhi or Green (or even Belli when he was here), that I would argue are even more suitable for Martin, who's also a good penetrator. Then there's the discipline this team has about execution and the extra pass, etc, that fans here take for granted, but if you watch around the league, it's so far out there.

Now, I'm ok that you have a different view about what "the system" is. We've discussed over the years what "the system" is in this place, and a lot of people have different ideas about it.

[Chinook]

What you're describing (as far as I understand) is that there are no plays within the Spurs offensive system that can make a scorer like Martin look good, and I would just disagree with that.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Again, it feels like my point is missed. It's not just about Martin. It's about everyone around him too. The Spurs' plays, like pretty much all basketball plays, have options built into them. I listed some of them in my last post. Those options mean that no lineup runs anything other than set plays the same. Even then, set plays are usually tailored to certain personnel, so they don't really count as exceptions. Those options, along with scouting reports, change how opponents defend the Spurs at any given moment. Against Parker, the other team might hedge. Against Mills, the other team might go over the screen. Against Miller, the other team will probably just go under. Who's the weakside spot-up guy determines how much help comes from there, which affects the next decision by the Spurs, the next set of options.

Yes, you have certain rules, like cut-throughs perimeter players have to make, certain screens at the start of sets. But even they aren't the same. A Mills cut-through is more dangerous than a Green cut-through, which is usually only a formality. A West screen is more effective than a Butler screen. Diaw having the ball ready for a hand-off with the guard is actually him in a triple-threat position, whereas for Duncan it would probably just be the hand-off. It goes on, and on and on.

The Spurs can totally have a Martin package that makes him effective. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. The question is going to be if those system changes have negative effects on the other guys on the floor, and if the net benefit is positive. It's much easier (in my opinion) to see him doing that when he's allowed to play his game in a smaller role than it is for him to do it as a spot-up guy.

[tholdren]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Again, it feels like my point is missed. It's not just about Martin. It's about everyone around him too. The Spurs' plays, like pretty much all basketball plays, have options built into them. I listed some of them in my last post. Those options mean that no lineup runs anything other than set plays the same. Even then, set plays are usually tailored to certain personnel, so they don't really count as exceptions. Those options, along with scouting reports, change how opponents defend the Spurs at any given moment. Against Parker, the other team might hedge. Against Mills, the other team might go over the screen. Against Miller, the other team will probably just go under. Who's the weakside spot-up guy determines how much help comes from there, which affects the next decision by the Spurs, the next set of options.

Yes, you have certain rules, like cut-throughs perimeter players have to make, certain screens at the start of sets. But even they aren't the same. A Mills cut-through is more dangerous than a Green cut-through, which is usually only a formality. A West screen is more effective than a Butler screen. Diaw having the ball ready for a hand-off with the guard is actually him in a triple-threat position, whereas for Duncan it would probably just be the hand-off. It goes on, and on and on.

The Spurs can totally have a Martin package that makes him effective. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. The question is going to be if those system changes have negative effects on the other guys on the floor, and if the net benefit is positive. It's much easier (in my opinion) to see him doing that when he's allowed to play his game in a smaller role than it is for him to do it as a spot-up guy.

jesus chinook stretching. its worse than a cry havoc turd-post

[lefty]

Better PG than Parker tbh..

[ElNono]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Again, it feels like my point is missed. It's not just about Martin. It's about everyone around him too. The Spurs' plays, like pretty much all basketball plays, have options built into them. I listed some of them in my last post. Those options mean that no lineup runs anything other than set plays the same. Even then, set plays are usually tailored to certain personnel, so they don't really count as exceptions. Those options, along with scouting reports, change how opponents defend the Spurs at any given moment. Against Parker, the other team might hedge. Against Mills, the other team might go over the screen. Against Miller, the other team will probably just go under. Who's the weakside spot-up guy determines how much help comes from there, which affects the next decision by the Spurs, the next set of options.

Yes, you have certain rules, like cut-throughs perimeter players have to make, certain screens at the start of sets. But even they aren't the same. A Mills cut-through is more dangerous than a Green cut-through, which is usually only a formality. A West screen is more effective than a Butler screen. Diaw having the ball ready for a hand-off with the guard is actually him in a triple-threat position, whereas for Duncan it would probably just be the hand-off. It goes on, and on and on.

The Spurs can totally have a Martin package that makes him effective. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. The question is going to be if those system changes have negative effects on the other guys on the floor, and if the net benefit is positive. It's much easier (in my opinion) to see him doing that when he's allowed to play his game in a smaller role than it is for him to do it as a spot-up guy.

I understand your concern better now, more of a fit issue. I don't necessarily share it, but, I'll say that adding him this late in the season will inevitably lead to some jitters. It probably would've worked better if we could have involved him with the team from the start of the season.

[Chinook]

I understand your concern better now, more of a fit issue. I don't necessarily share it, but, I'll say that adding him this late in the season will inevitably lead to some jitters. It probably would've worked better if we could have involved him with the team from the start of the season.

And if Manu retires, the bench would have a different paradigm, just like the SL does with Kawhi and LMA taking over for Parker. A guy like Martin could make sense as the center of the second-unit offense for a year or two. People to act like I didn't want Martin for the minimum over look the fact that I had been willing for the Spurs to take on Martin's contract for the last couple years.

[loveforthegame]

Think we hear something tonight? Or tomorrow?

[ElNono]

And if Manu retires, the bench would have a different paradigm, just like the SL does with Kawhi and LMA taking over for Parker. A guy like Martin could make sense as the center of the second-unit offense for a year or two. People to act like I didn't want Martin for the minimum over look the fact that I had been willing for the Spurs to take on Martin's contract for the last couple years.

Not even thinking of Martin long term ATM... I envision his role is to be a limited 10-15 min guy off the bench. Maybe more if we're banged up, need the extra scoring, etc. He's not that old and I think he could fetch more money in the open market than the Spurs would be willing to spend. But, we'll see.

[SAGirl]

It could be Simmons vs Butler tonight. Green is sitting on purpose

IMO I also saw the fact Anderson was guarding SG for a good chunk of the game as a factor in the decision. On the one hand a test for KA, but on the other, if you have Danny, Manu, Kmart, on top of that you like 2 PG lineups and are not shy using them, and now Kyle can be relied guarding SG for a stretch if you need him to, you can play Kawhi and Kyle on the wings together if you need to, Simmons is super redundant.

He's only kept if Pop wants him for next season which should be wise. 3 years in the system-2 in Austin 1 here, good character guy they obviously like, I really though this was an audition for him. Still bc his cheap contract and youth he's likely kept and Rasual is likely out but I think there is some real conflict with Pop.

Bonner being a better shooter than Rasual seals it. What Rasual does Kyle can do better at 22 yrs old, only he's not shooting 3s but Rasual has been streaky.

Really neither guy tips the scale this season therefore maybe you keep Simmons for the next one.

[Indazone]

Kmart is a shooting guard. He will stay on the perimeter. He won't start but he could be another piece when you match up with the Warriors.

[BackHome]

Bonnet has played on what two games this year? I think Pop kept him around with the thinking if they don't make any changes you can stay. However, if we have to make changes u might have to go. Butler has done everything that has been asked so letting him go would be a serious move by Pop.

[SAGirl]

Damn, no news on this or who is getting cut. I don't much care for Kmart, but I am intrigued to see how it goes. I have made my peace with it being Butler TBH, but I suspect Pop has some indecision.

[loveforthegame]

I'm guessing it won't be official until Wednesday now? They won't cut anyone until Martin passes his physical. I assume that will be done tomorrow. Maybe he's with the team in Minnesota on Tuesday? Otherwise get it done Wednesday and be available for Chicago on Thursday??

[Russ]

Radio silence as per usual.

[Kawhitstorm]

Radio silence as per usual.

PATFO don't do business on weekends nor does the league office who have to approve the deal.

[Darius Bieber]

PATFO don't do business on weekends nor does the league office who have to approve the deal.

Woj announced the release of McCallum last Saturday, the 27th.

[benefactor]

Release will likely come tomorrow morning sometime. I'm starting to lean towards it being Simmons.

[timtonymanu]

Release will likely come tomorrow morning sometime. I'm starting to lean towards it being Simmons.

This. Yesterday was his last chance to show something and he couldn't. Unfortunate for him but Butler doesn't deserve to get cut and Bonner has an personal connection with the team.