Kawhi had less shots than the Warriors 4th option last night...

[SpursFan86]

Meaningless without context. If LMA is also subbed out, Kawhi's usage is naturally going to increase. Also, Manu/Boris typically enters the game with Mills, and both are willing passers.

Mills on, LMA on, Parker off: Kawhi's USG = 29.4%

Regardless, I agree that there's more to it than just "Parker freezes Kawhi out while Mills is always actively looking for him!". There are several factors at play. But I still maintain that Mills is a better fit next to Kawhi/Aldridge than Parker. I don't want to see him start or anything (I agree that lack of a penetrator would be problematic), but I do hope Pop uses him more down the stretch in the playoffs, especially if Parker is having an off night. Mills/Manu/Kawhi/Aldridge (5th guy could be Green or Diaw or Duncan, just depends on the other team's lineup) is a pretty deadly unit for example.

edit: just read the post you made right after mine...sounds like we're on the same page. I don't think Mills should completely replace Parker's role or take all of his minutes either. Just want to see Pop use him more with some of the starters down the stretch of games

[Kool Bob Love]

Look at some of these set plays from Triangle and Horns:















I can go on. Very, very rarely does a set play (in any set or scheme) have a PG and SF directly interacting. Parker isn't "ignoring" Kawhi out of jealously, wanting to the hero, or any other silly in' conspiracy Kiwi fanboys have cooked up. It's by design, because that's the way the design has always been throughout basketball history.

And the reason Kawhi seems to play better alongside Mills, is because Mills can space the floor more than Parker. But Mills is limited in too many other areas for that 135-95 ORTG/DRTG to be sustainable long term. Over a significant sample size, Mills would make the starting unit worse than Parker has made it. Mills has a perfect role off the bench as a quick offense player. Wanting to change the Parker/Mills rotation would be asinine. That said, I do support Mills closing the game in certain instances, but not wholesale replacing Parker's role, like some dip s want.

Mids

[midnightpulp]

Mills on, LMA on, Parker off: Kawhi's USG = 29.4%

Regardless, I agree that there's more to it than just "Parker freezes Kawhi out while Mills is always actively looking for him!". There are several factors at play. But I still maintain that Mills is a better fit next to Kawhi/Aldridge than Parker. I don't want to see him start or anything (I agree that lack of a penetrator would be problematic), but I do hope Pop uses him more down the stretch in the playoffs, especially if Parker is having an off night. Mills/Manu/Kawhi/Aldridge (5th guy depending on who we're facing) is a pretty deadly unit for example.

Where are you finding these numbers? (Not that I doubt them, just want to take a look).

Also, how many of those units feature Manu? Is Duncan being subbed out (Duncan eats a bit of overall USG, as well) And who has been subbed in/out on the opposing team? There's a wealth of factors to consider here that could contribute to Kawhi's seemingly better fit alongside Mills than just the Tony effect.

I also agree that's a dangerous unit, but only in stretches and per the matchup. Long term, I don't see it being an overall boon because it kills the bench and takes a penetrator off the floor.

[SpursFan86]

Where are you finding these numbers? (Not that I doubt them, just want to take a look).

Also, how many of those units feature Manu? Is Duncan being subbed out (Duncan eats a bit of overall USG, as well) And who has been subbed in/out on the opposing team? There's a wealth of factors to consider here that could contribute to Kawhi's seemingly better fit alongside Mills than just the Tony effect.

I also agree that's a dangerous unit, but only in stretches and per the matchup. Long term, I don't see it being an overall boon because it kills the bench and takes a penetrator off the floor.

nbawowy.com --> you can search any sort of lineup you can think of (ex: Kawhi on, Diaw on, Aldridge off, Green off) and it'll spit out practically any stat you could want to know

Of the 352 minutes Mills/Kawhi/Aldridge have played together without Parker, Diaw played for 185 of those minutes and Manu played for 172. Duncan played for a little over 70 of those minutes, and Kawhi's USG was 30.7% during those minutes.

Like I said, we're basically on the same page here. I don't think making Mills the starter would be wise, nor do I think he should be playing 30 mpg at the expense of Parker's minutes. I just want to see Mills get a little more run with some of the starters (particularly Kawhi and LMA) because he's a much better fit offensively with those guys.

Losing Parker and his penetration (even though he's declined pretty heavily in that aspect) is a problem, but that's why I put forth the idea of playing Manu as well. Manu can provide that drive-and-kick offense that Mills can't. Like you said, just in stretches...not saying I want Pop to start Mills and Manu and bench Parker/Green

[Clipper Nation]

Look at some of these set plays from Triangle and Horns:















I can go on. Very, very rarely does a set play (in any set or scheme) have a PG and SF directly interacting. Parker isn't "ignoring" Kawhi out of jealously, wanting to the hero, or any other silly in' conspiracy Kiwi fanboys have cooked up. It's by design, because that's the way the design has always been throughout basketball history.

And the reason Kawhi seems to play better alongside Mills, is because Mills can space the floor more than Parker. But Mills is limited in too many other areas for that 135-95 ORTG/DRTG to be sustainable long term. Over a significant sample size, Mills would make the starting unit worse than Parker has made it. Mills has a perfect role off the bench as a quick offense player. Wanting to change the Parker/Mills rotation would be asinine. That said, I do support Mills closing the game in certain instances, but not wholesale replacing Parker's role, like some dip s want.

Thinking Porker runs anything other than the "dribble, dribble, dribble, chuck, brick" play

[lefty]

Thinking Porker runs anything other than the "dribble, dribble, dribble, chuck, brick" play

[YGWHI]

Very, very rarely does a set play (in any set or scheme) have a PG and SF directly interacting. Parker isn't "ignoring" Kawhi out of jealously, wanting to the hero, or any other silly in' conspiracy Kiwi fanboys have cooked up. It's by design, because that's the way the design has always been throughout basketball history.

We don't need to look "historic" Off/teams...Just look how OKC play the 1-3 P&R and how they made it one of their main offensive weapons.

"Rarely"...

[YGWHI]

Parker was always a shoot-first point guard. What did you think, he was gonna suddenly transform into John Stockton when he turned 30? Nope, he's still the same guy...just slower, and worse at scoring.

He should make some adjustments in his game because of his age.

His speed and explosiveness are gone, but Parker seems one of those guys who haven't succeeded at adapting...

And Pop doesn't contribute to his adaptation calling plays for Parker like he's in his prime...that's an issue.

[dabom]

Mills on, LMA on, Parker off: Kawhi's USG = 29.4%

Regardless, I agree that there's more to it than just "Parker freezes Kawhi out while Mills is always actively looking for him!". There are several factors at play. But I still maintain that Mills is a better fit next to Kawhi/Aldridge than Parker. I don't want to see him start or anything (I agree that lack of a penetrator would be problematic), but I do hope Pop uses him more down the stretch in the playoffs, especially if Parker is having an off night. Mills/Manu/Kawhi/Aldridge (5th guy could be Green or Diaw or Duncan, just depends on the other team's lineup) is a pretty deadly unit for example.

edit: just read the post you made right after mine...sounds like we're on the same page. I don't think Mills should completely replace Parker's role or take all of his minutes either. Just want to see Pop use him more with some of the starters down the stretch of games

midnightpulp

[midnightpulp]

We don't need to look "historic" Off/teams...Just look how OKC play the 1-3 P&R and how they made it one of their main offensive weapons.

"Rarely"...

Yes, dip . It's still rarely used.

OKC is the only team in existence to use it (and they don't use it as much as you think they do). The only other team that used a guard/SF pnr was Miami, but it was used with Wade, not Chalmers.

Those teams also didn't have any low post bigs, meaning they had the space to utilize it more effectively than the Spurs would be able to since Duncan/LMA/Boris/Boban or whoever would clog the lane. Furthermore, it works well for OKC because Westbrook is about the best penetrator in the NBA.

Why don't you read a bit about how and why OKC can employ it before re edly suggesting the Spurs use it because you want to get hard watching Kawhi score.

Between Westbrook's ability to get to the rim and Durant's elite shooting ability at 6'9", there's not much room for error if the defense wants to get a stop.

With the Durant-Westbrook pick-and-roll, the Thunder love to set it up with Durant coming off of a pindown screen or a double screen from the paint to come up and set his own screen for Westbrook. This makes it even more difficult for the defense to keep up, already being behind Durant. The actual pick-and-roll typically happens with Durant and Westbrook isolated on one side of the wing, with the other three players on the court pushed to the weak side. This allows for as much spacing as possible, and it often means that strong trapping against Westbrook leaves Durant free to pop to a completely isolated part of the court on the strong side.

Parker is no longer the penetrator he was. He's still good, but not Westbrook level.

Pushing LMA to the weakside (our 2nd best scorer) would disengage him from the offense. Not a wise move. Pushing Duncan there would also hurt our offensive rebounding. If you desperately want this set for the Spurs, then phone Pop and tell him to play Boris at C and Bonner at PF. Yeah, see how that works out defensively.

Trapping. Westbrook can better deal with traps because he's 6'4" with a long wingspan, so he can easily pass over any potential trap (why do you think Miami ran it with Wade and not the much shorter Chalmers). Parker already has trouble making simple entry passes when a longer defender is in front of him, so putting him in a set that would lead to him being continuously trapped would be stupid.

No, the Spurs doing this would be disastrous.

I get you just want "bawl gibbed to Kiwi " but a 1-3 pick-n-roll isn't the way to do it.

[YGWHI]

Porky took more shots than Kawhi but it was b/c the Worriers were daring him to shoot while Pop had Kawhi camped in the corner by design for LMA's postups

So if LMA plays 40 mpg against the Warriors in the playoffs Kawhi will park in the corner 40 mpg...

It's pretty obvious that LMA needs the ball, he has to score at least 22-24 ppg to beat the Warriors in 7 games, but if Parker is the 2nd option, the Spurs are ed.

LMA can have some bad shooting night and the team will need a 2nd scorer to step up and shine, Kawhi has proved to be a prolific and efficient scorer the few times he has the balls in his hands.,

It's weird that Pop expects LMA-one-man-offense beats the Warriors instead of being more reliant on their two main scorers and calls plays for both in order to go far in the series.

[midnightpulp]

midnightpulp

It's cute you think he got me (he essentially agreed with me, anyhow), and while I'm not calling him out for being disingenuous or anything, the fun fact he left out is that Mills' usage is only 1.5% lower than Parker's in the same Green, Kawhi, LMA, Duncan lineup. Sub Manu in for Green, and Mills usage explodes to 32.5% vs. Kawhi's 27.5% .

So Kawhi's (marginally) lower usage alongside Tony vs. Mills has to do with something else in the offense and not "Parker don't gib bawl to Kiwi "

[YGWHI]

Yes, dip . It's still rarely used.

OKC is the only team in existence to use it (and they don't use it as much as you think they do). The only other team that used a guard/SF pnr was Miami, but it was used with Wade, not Chalmers.

Those teams also didn't have any low post bigs, meaning they had the space to utilize it more effectively than the Spurs would be able to since Duncan/LMA/Boris/Boban or whoever would clog the lane. Furthermore, it works well for OKC because Westbrook is about the best penetrator in the NBA.

Not sure but Kanter, Adams, Anderson, all seem low post bigs, but I wouldn't be surprised if you think they're stretch bigs...

[YGWHI]

Pushing LMA to the weakside (our 2nd best scorer) would disengage him from the offense. Not a wise move.

No one wants to see some-passive-LMA on that end, at least not me. But you should worry about the other Spurs main scorer who is not involved on offense.

I get you just want "bawl gibbed to Kiwi "

It's so crazy that you still think the Spurs will beat the Warriors with Kawhi being the #3 option...

[midnightpulp]

It's cute you think he got me (he essentially agreed with me, anyhow), and while I'm not calling him out for being disingenuous or anything, the fun fact he left out is that Mills' usage is only 1.5% lower than Parker's in the same Green, Kawhi, LMA, Duncan lineup. Sub Manu in for Green, and Mills usage explodes to 32.5% vs. Kawhi's 27.5% .

So Kawhi's (marginally) lower usage alongside Tony vs. Mills has to do with something else in the offense and not "Parker don't gib bawl to Kiwi "

Might have found a culprit.

Danny Green's usage climbs 4 points when Patty enters for Parker. So why aren't you idiots calling out (Krew Favorite) Danny for freezing out Kawhi?

Here's another. When Manu enters for Green (while Parker remains on the floor), Manu eats 5 more usage than Green alongside Parker. In fact, Parker's usage is about the same when Manu comes in. But that usage has to go somewhere, and Leonard's usage drops by 2 points when Manu comes in.

Why aren't we calling out Manu for "freezing out" Kawhi?

Funny enough, Parker's usage remains at about 20 through a variety of lineups, consistent with Mills 20ish usage in a variety of lineups (and again, Mills usage skyrockets alongside Manu).

And I've touched on this before in a discussion with dumb YGHWI. Manu and Mills often get involved with themselves in a two man perimeter game (Mills dribbles it up, hands off to Manu to run the offense. Mills runs to a 3 point spot up spot. Manu does his iso penetration thing and often passes to Mills who will usually have a look).

Kawhi still has a 27.8 usage in that lineup, but why aren't the usual suspect fanboys ranting and raving about Mills Kobe-level 32.4 usage in that lineup?

[midnightpulp]

Not sure but Kanter, Adams, Anderson, all seem low post bigs, but I wouldn't be surprised if you think they're stretch bigs...

Kanter plays with the 2nd unit (he's only played 76 minutes with the starters). Who's Anderson? Adams is a Baynes type player, so pushing him to the weak side doesn't matter since he's typically irrelevant in most offensive sets.

And let's not forget Parker isn't the penetrator he once was. Didn't you just state he needs to "adjust" his game? Yeah, putting him in more pick-n-roll sets is going to do that. In a p-n-r set like the Thunder run, both players need to be about equally dangerous offensive threats (if that set has a 70-30, 80-20 unbalance per shot attempts, it's worthless. Too easy to gameplan for. A set like that needs to force the other team into a "pick you poison" dilemma). So guess what, moron? A 1-3 p-n-r set with Tony and Kawhi will mean MORE shots for Tony (coming at the expense of LMA, which is fine with you, as long as Kawhi gets more shots).

But yes, it will also mean more shots for Kawhi, which is all that you really care about

[midnightpulp]

No one wants to see some-passive-LMA on that end, at least not me. But you should worry about the other Spurs main scorer who is not involved on offense.


It's so crazy that you still think the Spurs will beat the Warriors with Kawhi being the #3 option...

Except I never advocated Kawhi being the 3rd option. Quit using strawman arguments.

I just think you're overly focused on Parker to a paranoid degree. Feel free to examine a variety of lineups on http://nbawowy.com/. You'll find that your 2nd favorite player (Patty Mills) has a similar usage to Parker in a variety of lineups, meaning that when Mills subs in for Parker, Kawhi's increased usage isn't a result of Mills essentially giving up Parker's usage to Kawhi.

And as far as the this "option" . Guess who are the 2nd and 3rd options in a Mills, Manu, Kawhi, LMA, Duncan lineup? Kawhi and LMA Mills has Kobe like usage in that lineup.

[YGWHI]

Kanter plays with the 2nd unit (he's only played 76 minutes with the starters). Who's Anderson? Adams is a Baynes type player, so pushing him to the weak side doesn't matter since he's typically irrelevant in most offensive sets.

Miami.Andersen.

Still in those Parker-Kawhi combined minutes w/o Tim, we don't see interaction between the two, so the spacing isn't the problem.

And let's not forget Parker isn't the penetrator he once was. Didn't you just state he needs to "adjust" his game? Yeah, putting him in more pick-n-roll sets is going to do that. In a p-n-r set like the Thunder run, both players need to be about equally dangerous offensive threats (if that set has a 70-30, 80-20 unbalance per shot attempts, it's worthless. Too easy to gameplan for. A set like that needs to force the other team into a "pick you poison" dilemma). So guess what, moron? A 1-3 p-n-r set with Tony and Kawhi will mean MORE shots for Tony

So funny. We watched how Parker-Tim P&Rs attempts have failed but you aren't crying about it.

(coming at the expense of LMA, which is fine with you, as long as Kawhi gets more shots).

Yeah...Keep saying it when I said exactly the opposite.

it will also mean more shots for Kawhi, which is all that you really care about

In playoffs I only care about wins and the Spurs need Kawhi to stay aggressive/scoring to win. Sadly, it seems like you don't care about it.

[YGWHI]

Except I never advocated Kawhi being the 3rd option.

Neither worrying about him taking less shots. Basically it's the same thing.

I just think you're overly focused on Parker to a paranoid degree.

Parker took more shots than Kawhi against the Warriors per minute on the court in this season. You think that's not a problem, I just think that's essentially a suicidal strategy.

[DMC]

Kawhi had fewer, not less. At least get the le right.

[SupremeGuy]

That's what you get when you have a hero balling point guard with the court vision of a horse with blinders on and the bball iq of Javele McGee. It's a hard concept to understand to give the ball to your best player, I know.

[midnightpulp]

Miami.Andersen.

Still in those Parker-Kawhi combined minutes w/o Tim, we don't see interaction between the two, so the spacing isn't the problem.


So funny. We watched how Parker-Tim P&Rs attempts have failed but you aren't crying about it.


Yeah...Keep saying it when I said exactly the opposite.


In playoffs I only care about wins and the Spurs need Kawhi to stay aggressive/scoring to win. Sadly, it seems like you don't care about it.

Holy you're in' stupid or just dense as .

Of course Parker is going to run the pick-and-roll with Tim (or LMA or Boris) because BIG MEN ARE WHO BACKCOURT PLAYERS RUN P-N-Rs WITH. And no, I'm not mad. I typed in caps in the hopes the concept will penetrate your thick skull.

And no, I don't like Parker/Tim p-n-rs anymore, since both players can't run it effectively anymore (Duncan is inconsistent on jumpers, so he isn't a threat from to pop, and as I said, Parker doesn't penetrate like he used to).

So if Parker can't really run the p-n-r like he used to (with any player), why the do you want him running it with Kawhi? Oh, I know, because it'll get your hero more shot attempts.

And you didn't say any in' "opposite." a 1-3 pick-and-roll will marginalize LMA. So who gets those additional touches? You'll probably say, "Well, I want the majority of the shot attempts going to Kawhi in that set. Parker will just initiate it, so he won't get anymore touches than usual." That's not how a pick-and-roll works. Both players need to be equal threats to score. Just admit your idea was re ed now that I pointed out it will result in Parker actually taking more shots at the expense of the team.

No, it's pretty clear you want a Kobe like usage for Kawhi, no matter the scenario. I'm about matchups. If Kawhi has a favorable matchup, exploit it. But you're a moron if you don't think GS will adjust if he starts killing them. So when they load up on him, other players need to step up and relieve that pressure. If LMA is having problems, then that leaves Tony (Curry has had problems with quick PGs all year) to try and carry some load so the game opens back up for the big guns.

And Kawhi's usage is fine relative to Parker's against Golden State. You didn't add up FT attempts in your little calculation.

[YGWHI]

Holy you're in' stupid or just dense as .

Of course Parker is going to run the pick-and-roll with Tim (or LMA or Boris) because BIG MEN ARE WHO BACKCOURT PLAYERS RUN P-N-Rs WITH. And no, I'm not mad. I typed in caps in the hopes the concept will penetrate your thick skull.

And no, I don't like Parker/Tim p-n-rs anymore, since both players can't run it effectively anymore (Duncan is inconsistent on jumpers, so he isn't a threat from to pop, and as I said, Parker doesn't penetrate like he used to).

And this is the first time you say that Parker can't run picks...At least it's a start.

Look at your evolution, girl. From "Parker will drop 25 points against the Warriors" to "He can't run it anymore". Proud of you.

So if Parker can't really run the p-n-r like he used to (with any player), why the do you want him running it with Kawhi? Oh, I know, because it'll get your hero more shot attempts.
And you didn't say any in' "opposite." a 1-3 pick-and-roll will marginalize LMA. So who gets those additional touches? You'll probably say, "Well, I want the majority of the shot attempts going to Kawhi in that set. Parker will just initiate it, so he won't get anymore touches than usual."

That's how it works. The team still plays inefficent Parker-Tim P&Rs so there's an opportunity for Kawhi's.
Pop played Kawhi-Kyle-LMA frontcourt in some minutes of the 2nd half against Warriors, that would be the perfect lineup for Parker-Kawhi two-man game.
I'd love to see some Kawhi-LMA P&R too but with Parker on the court... it won't happen.

No, it's pretty clear you want a Kobe like usage for Kawhi, no matter the scenario. I'm about matchups. If Kawhi has a favorable matchup, exploit it. But you're a moron if you don't think GS will adjust if he starts killing them.

First, give him an opportunity to do it...It's stupid not to calls plays for him just because the Warriors will adjust.

So when they load up on him, other players need to step up and relieve that pressure. If LMA is having problems, then that leaves Tony (Curry has had problems with quick PGs all year) to try and carry some load so the game opens back up for the big guns.

But the case is that Parker takes more shots than the big gun in every game against them.

If you care about matchups, you should worried about Kawhi having a favorable matchup against Thompson and still Parker taking the shot.

And Kawhi's usage is fine relative to Parker's against Golden State. You didn't add up FT attempts in your little calculation

"Fine relative" like being the 3rd option behind Parker?

[midnightpulp]

And this is the first time you say that Parker can't run picks...At least it's a start.

Look at your evolution, girl. From "Parker will drop 25 points against the Warriors" to "He can't run it anymore". Proud of you.

He runs it reasonably well with LMA, so I should've clarified that Tony and Duncan can't run it effectively together anymore. But as a whole, I don't like the p-n-r as an main option for this team, which is why, again, you clamoring for it to be ran with Kawhi and Parker is re ed. So you tell me, "At least you admit he can't run picks anymore!" and then in the same breath WANTING a player than can't run pick-and-rolls anymore to run it with your favorite player? So if Parker can't run pick-and-rolls, why the do you want him running it with Kawhi? Pick a lane, dip .

And there you go again putting words in my mouth. I never said Parker WILL drop 25 on the Warriors, only that he needs to have a couple of games like that if we have a hope in of winning that series.

That's how it works. The team still plays inefficent Parker-Tim P&Rs so there's an opportunity for Kawhi's.

Nope. A 1-3 pnr won't work on this team. Get that stupid idea out of your head.

Pop played Kawhi-Kyle-LMA frontcourt in some minutes of the 2nd half against Warriors, that would be the perfect lineup for Parker-Kawhi two-man game.

Nope. See above.

I'd love to see some Kawhi-LMA P&R too but with Parker on the court... it won't happen.

If you want this to happen, tell Pop to play Kawhi at SG or to improve his passing and ball handling to Lebron levels.

First, give him an opportunity to do it...It's stupid not to calls plays for him just because the Warriors will adjust.

And it's stupid to not get other players involved.

But the case is that Parker takes more shots than the big gun in every game against them.

No he hasn't.

[SAGirl]

That's why you want Kyle Anderson in the courts subbing of Tony Parker. At least KA knows he isn't the first option.

This is an honest take. Kyle does look for Kawhi every time they play together, early in the shot clock and he gets the ball to LMA in good spots he can score easily from. Just have to watch the recent Memphis game when he ended up with 7 assists most of the to LMA.