Post Tim Center Discussion

[Chinook]

I don't really understand all this tbh. LMA can shoot so it's better to get a rim protector.

Gasol (both, actually) can shoot, too. They are still centers. Horford shoots, and he's a center. Towns shoots, and he's a center. Shooting is becoming a requirement for centers, especially out to midrange. Aldridge isn't shooting threes at a high volume, and he's definitely isn't hitting them at a high rate. So he's not really being the floor-spacer right now.

I'm a university professor and not stupid.

What does this have to do with anything? I've never questioned your intellect. And what you do for a living has no bearing on the merit of your points. Just completely random.

I just learned to focus on the basics and avoid verbal masturbation.

You can do that all you want. And I'll do what I want. If you don't like that, you don't have to keep the conversation going. I do feel like you just picking random sentences to respond to and missing some of the context, though.

[K...]

I don't know why people aren't understanding that you don't need classic pf and c in today's league. It's more like a menu based approach.

Someone brought up screens and oberto...that's good. We could use a good screen set guy, and a good stretch 4, and a shot blocker, and a first option on offense, and able to defend guards.

You can't get those things in one player. So look at what lma is good at get someone to compliment him.


Lma is nice because he's competent on both sides of the ball. That's why he gets the max. We can't pay max this year. So we are literally looking for best skills on cheap. We're gonna have to accept some mediocrity.

Lma is a center in a small ball lineup. He's the pf in a twin towers. Guess which style is currently in league fashion? There is your answer.

[dabom]

lma is not a center u stupid

[dabom]

''hey lma, some guy on Spurstalk is calling u a traditional center'' -dabom
- LMA

[Chinook]

I don't know why people aren't understanding that you don't need classic pf and c in today's league. It's more like a menu based approach.

Someone brought up screens and oberto...that's good. We could use a good screen set guy, and a good stretch 4, and a shot blocker, and a first option on offense, and able to defend guards.

You can't get those things in one player. So look at what lma is good at get someone to compliment him.

Exactly, and you can't measure by comparing them to Duncan. That's just asking to be disappointed. Only thing I'd add is that the Spurs have to use a big that works with the rest of the SL too, not just LMA. Kawhi posting up and Parker getting older shifts the needs away from a post presence and toward a stretch-big. It's awesome if you have a big-bodied PF who can set screens and shoot threes while being a good rebounding like Sullinger. But even if you don't get the stocky build and instead go for an Amir Johnson type who can shoot and finish and defend while not being much of a screener, it's good. But shooting is much more important than most of the other things.

[Kawhitstorm]

Exactly, and you can't measure by comparing them to Duncan. That's just asking to be disappointed. Only thing I'd add is that the Spurs have to use a big that works with the rest of the SL too, not just LMA. Kawhi posting up and Parker getting older shifts the needs away from a post presence and toward a stretch-big. It's awesome if you have a big-bodied PF who can set screens and shoot threes while being a good rebounding like Sullinger. But even if you don't get the stocky build and instead go for an Amir Johnson type who can shoot and finish and defend while not being much of a screener, it's good. But shooting is much more important than most of the other things.

A guy who kind of fits the bill is Meyers Leonard who seems to be the odd man out in Portland & didn't get an extension. He already has experience playing alongside LMA & played well against Gasol in the playoffs. Another RFA who also fits the bill is D-Mo but his back issues might have ended his career.

If PATFO are on the market for a stretch 4/5, Leonard is the best option but the Blazers would probably match a reasonable offer since they have a lot of cap space. So, most likely Jon Leuer is going to end up being the best stretch 4 that can be had for a bargain price like Rasual.

http://www.nba.com/suns/suns-found-hidden-gem-jon-leuer

[sasaint]

A guy who kind of fits the bill is Meyers Leonard who seems to be the odd man out in Portland & didn't get an extension. He already has experience playing alongside LMA & played well against Gasol in the playoffs. Another RFA who also fits the bill is D-Mo but his back issues might have ended his career.

If PATFO are on the market for a stretch 4/5, Leonard is the best option but the Blazers would probably match a reasonable offer since they have a lot of cap space. So, most likely Jon Leuer is going to end up being the best stretch 4 that can be had for a bargain price like Rasual.

http://www.nba.com/suns/suns-found-hidden-gem-jon-leuer

We need to do whatever we can to get MLeonard. I want us to go after his teammate, Crabbe, too. With Lillard and McCollom on the Blazers, Crabbe would probably be very interested in a new team. And Portland might not want to pay him as much as somebody else.

[TD 21]

And LMA is 6-11 and protected the rim and rebounded better. Sounds like a center by your standard, unless you're suggesting that LMA needs someone who can't shoot next to him.




You make it sound like the great rim-protecting centers are flooding the market right now. They aren't any more available than the PFs you mentioned. The best defensive center possibly on the FA market is Amir Johnson, who himself is more of a shooter than a "traditional center". If you're talking about trades, Jerami Grant is probably available for cheap, and he's a shot-blocking combo-forward who is getting a decent three going. Either of those guys is better than getting plodders just for the of it, or taking on Henson's deal.



The Hawks don't think they're playing Horford out of position; that's the point. They aren't concerned with getting a different five. That's why they signed the guys they did. The Spurs just wanted to get the best bigs next to Duncan as they could, which is why they were keen to change so often. In back-to-back years they used their MLEs on bigs, one being a PF and the other being a center. Both guys were expected to start next to Tim. That's as clear of a precedent as any that the Spurs will focus on getting talent over perceived fit.



They were searching for a back-up center who could defend and slide into big-ball lineups. Pretty much the inverse of the minutes you were suggesting. What they wanted was a combo-forward in a good way, a guy who could space the floor on offense and defend fours on defense. The closest they got to that was Battier.

The Spurs have to maximize the spacing around Kawhi and LMA. Green and LMA's mid-range shots are just not enough.



The issue with the concept of spacing that I think most people overlook is that spacers aren't supposed to be big scorers. When Green shoots 2-5, 3-6, 1-2, 3-5, he's doing what he's supposed to do. You want guys who teams have to guard or else they give up efficient looks. That's the reason why guys like Bosh and Love are marginalized when playing next to Lebron. You can't be a star stretch-big. LMA being able to shoot a three is fine, but making that anything other than a rare part of his shot-selection will make him a less effective scorer. You don't want him spacing the floor for a worse big, and especially not for an Oberto type.

The team's defensive rebounding and rim protection fell off with Aldridge starting at center. Of course, it would be ideal to have optimal spacing for 48 minutes, but few can, without sacrificing defensive rebounding/rim protection.

Both the Trail Blazers and Spurs have had elite offenses with Aldridge starting at power forward and in the former's case, he played it almost exclusively.

Hibbert, Aldrich and Plumlee, are all capable rim protectors. Johnson is obviously not in the same class as the other 4.5's I mentioned, but he's the only potentially realistic option and clearly preferable to those centers. Why would Grant be available for cheap?

You continue to ignore the fact that, by that logic, Duncan is a power forward. The fact that Duncan is a center, who chafed more at the designation than the actual job description (and obviously excelled at it; unlike Aldridge), made it easier to slot just about any type of big next to him.

Wrong. The first two years, the Heat were searching for a starting center.

Again, we're talking about essentially maintaining what they have now. The first six minutes of each half they'd start traditional, then after that, it would depend on match-ups, who's playing well, etc. Aldridge can function as a sometimes spacer for the minutes he plays next to a center and then become more post oriented when next to a perimeter oriented power forward.

[Kawhitstorm]

We need to do whatever we can to get MLeonard. I want us to go after his teammate, Crabbe, too. With Lillard and McCollom on the Blazers, Crabbe would probably be very interested in a new team. And Portland might not want to pay him as much as somebody else.

Crabbe would have been worth going after if Kyle wasn't on the roster but Portland will match a reasonable price since again they have a lot of cap space.

[sasaint]

Let's take inventory. I assume Tim will not be here next season. So, guys who play at the 4/5 already on the team or in the pipeline include:

1. LMA - returns @ $20.5MM
2. DWest - returns @ +/-$3MM
3. Diaw - ? $7.5MM
4. Boban - ? $3MM
5. Ndoye - ? $1.3MM
6. Cady Lalanne - Austin
7. LJC - France
8. Milutinov - Greece
9. Kyle (not a 4/5 but a 3/4) - $1.2MM
10. Bonner - retired

We could fill anywhere from 2-5 spots without resorting to a trade or free agency.

Minutes-wise, however, things get a little skewed. No doubt Pop ideally would like to keep LMA in the 28-30 min. range and DWest in the 18-20 min. range. Hopefully Kyle will develop into a rotation player in the 24-26 min range, but that must be regarded as a question mark, and not all of those minutes would be spent at the 4. So, we would need 26-30 mins from somebody. Perhaps a combination of Boban and Diaw could provide most of those minutes, but Boban's time is pretty matchup-dependent, and Diaw doesn't provide consistent motivated play. So where to find the needed minutes?

Imho, LJC is too raw and will not help us next season, if ever. Same with Milutinov, who isn't getting a lot of time with Olympiacos. Cady is also still a work in progress as a stretch 4. I don't see him helping either. Ndoye has made nice strides in Austin, and as Chinook has suggested, may be a great young guy to sign for a near-minimum and play him between Austin and SA like Kyle last season.

Also assuming Manu, Ray and Rasual do not return, we would have Tony, Patty, Danny, Simmons, Kyle and Kawhi - 6 spots of 9 currently dedicated to the 1, 2 and 3 positions. We would need to fill 6 or 7 total roster spots, and would have +/- $15MM to work with under the cap. That's not a lot of money to fill that many spots. Maybe we need to bring back Rasual, depending on how he finishes the season, and even re-think Ray. I personally have a hard time seeing us finding anybody decent at the 4/5 without replacing Diaw and his contract with a guy who can offer decent consistent minutes throughout the regular season and without also bringing in a development player such as Ndoye.

I am not a capologist, and this doesn't include things like the MLE. But maybe we could turn this thread into a less general discussion by also considering the economics of our roster construction. Life without Tim will be strange and difficult, and PATFO will need to make some tough decisions and hit some home runs.

[Chinook]

The team's defensive rebounding and rim protection fell off with Aldridge starting at center. Of course, it would be ideal to have optimal spacing for 48 minutes, but few can, without sacrificing defensive rebounding/rim protection.

They're totally defense seems to be sufficient without Tim and with West in the starting lineup. I know the narrative is that the defense fell off without Duncan, but people overlook that the pace increased without him as well, which contributed as much to their higher PPG allowed. And the team played two great offenses without Tim, and that obviously skews the stats even more. Obviously Tim is a great defender and important player, but the team got by without him.

Both the Trail Blazers and Spurs have had elite offenses with Aldridge starting at power forward and in the former's case, he played it almost exclusively.

The Spurs didn't have an elite starting unit offensively with Tim and LMA there together. They only really started making their way up the ladder when Tim was out and LMA got into a rhythm. He went for 22ppg on 58 percent shooting without Tim and has dropped to 14.7ppg in 44 percent shooting since Tim came back. It's shocking how much better Aldridge is as the starting center.

Hibbert, Aldrich and Plumlee, are all capable rim protectors. Johnson is obviously not in the same class as the other 4.5's I mentioned, but he's the only potentially realistic option and clearly preferable to those centers. Why would Grant be available for cheap?

Of the first three guys you listed, Hibbert is the only established starter. Cole is a low-minute guy who's foul-to-block ratio is horrible, and Plumlee can't even get a rotation spot recently. Truth be told, they aren't bad ideas for pickups. But no way do I consider them starters or think they make more sense to put next to LMA than a higher-end PF. Grant's about to be boxed out for minutes with Noel, Embiid, Okafor, Saric, Covington and almost certainly one of Simmons or Ingram in the front court. Philly wouldn't cut him or anything, but I do think the Spurs could get him for a pick.

You continue to ignore the fact that, by that logic, Duncan is a power forward. The fact that Duncan is a center, who chafed more at the designation than the actual job description (and obviously excelled at it; unlike Aldridge), made it easier to slot just about any type of big next to him.

I feel like you're getting it twisted. My point isn't that Horford is a center who can't be anything else. It's that he's managed to succeed as a center his whole career despite being a worse version of LMA. Sure, people have complained that he's a natural four, but that hasn't stopped the team from playing him at the five, Horford from excelling there, or the team being good despite the lack of a five next to him. In a similar way, the Spurs have tried to put the best big they could next to Duncan. It was a stiff back when they needed guys to guard Shaq, KG and the other elite bigs. It was a screener or popper when the Spurs moved to a PnR-centric offense. It was an agile big when Tim just couldn't take the pounding of being a defensive center for an extended period of time. Now, it's a big-bodied big who can shoot and roll now that the Spurs have the money to check off that many boxes. I don't think the team cared if he was a natural four or five outside of lineup designations. And I don't think they care about it in terms of LMA either.

Wrong. The first two years, the Heat were searching for a starting center.

Again, we're talking about essentially maintaining what they have now. The first six minutes of each half they'd start traditional, then after that, it would depend on match-ups, who's playing well, etc. Aldridge can function as a sometimes spacer for the minutes he plays next to a center and then become more post oriented when next to a perimeter oriented power forward.

This is really the key point. YOU'RE talking about maintaining the status quo. I'm not. I'm very much not. You don't get a scrub to be Duncan. You create a different paradigm where the five new guys can all play the best. Same thing is true with the bench next year if/when Manu leaves. You don't pretend like Anderson is Manu and leave it there. You're not going to be able to replicate that beautiful game play just by adding another passing wing. You do something else, and maybe some of the current guys there won't fit that new thing. The important thing is for the Spurs to get the best guy they can this summer and figure out how to make it all work after.

[Chinook]

We need to do whatever we can to get MLeonard. I want us to go after his teammate, Crabbe, too. With Lillard and McCollom on the Blazers, Crabbe would probably be very interested in a new team. And Portland might not want to pay him as much as somebody else.

Crabbe's their three of the future. They'll probably at least Batum him.

[TD 21]

They're totally defense seems to be sufficient without Tim and with West in the starting lineup. I know the narrative is that the defense fell off without Duncan, but people overlook that the pace increased without him as well, which contributed as much to their higher PPG allowed. And the team played two great offenses without Tim, and that obviously skews the stats even more. Obviously Tim is a great defender and important player, but the team got by without him.



The Spurs didn't have an elite starting unit offensively with Tim and LMA there together. They only really started making their way up the ladder when Tim was out and LMA got into a rhythm. He went for 22ppg on 58 percent shooting without Tim and has dropped to 14.7ppg in 44 percent shooting since Tim came back. It's shocking how much better Aldridge is as the starting center.



Of the first three guys you listed, Hibbert is the only established starter. Cole is a low-minute guy who's foul-to-block ratio is horrible, and Plumlee can't even get a rotation spot recently. Truth be told, they aren't bad ideas for pickups. But no way do I consider them starters or think they make more sense to put next to LMA than a higher-end PF. Grant's about to be boxed out for minutes with Noel, Embiid, Okafor, Saric, Covington and almost certainly one of Simmons or Ingram in the front court. Philly wouldn't cut him or anything, but I do think the Spurs could get him for a pick.



I feel like you're getting it twisted. My point isn't that Horford is a center who can't be anything else. It's that he's managed to succeed as a center his whole career despite being a worse version of LMA. Sure, people have complained that he's a natural four, but that hasn't stopped the team from playing him at the five, Horford from excelling there, or the team being good despite the lack of a five next to him. In a similar way, the Spurs have tried to put the best big they could next to Duncan. It was a stiff back when they needed guys to guard Shaq, KG and the other elite bigs. It was a screener or popper when the Spurs moved to a PnR-centric offense. It was an agile big when Tim just couldn't take the pounding of being a defensive center for an extended period of time. Now, it's a big-bodied big who can shoot and roll now that the Spurs have the money to check off that many boxes. I don't think the team cared if he was a natural four or five outside of lineup designations. And I don't think they care about it in terms of LMA either.





This is really the key point. YOU'RE talking about maintaining the status quo. I'm not. I'm very much not. You don't get a scrub to be Duncan. You create a different paradigm where the five new guys can all play the best. Same thing is true with the bench next year if/when Manu leaves. You don't pretend like Anderson is Manu and leave it there. You're not going to be able to replicate that beautiful game play just by adding another passing wing. You do something else, and maybe some of the current guys there won't fit that new thing. The important thing is for the Spurs to get the best guy they can this summer and figure out how to make it all work after.

That's not the narrative; it's a fact. I knew you'd come with those reasons/excuses, yet I suspect they'd have been left out, if it were Green or Splitter.

I know, but the offense overall has been elite. True, that that's due in large part to the bench, but the elite defensive is due in large part to the starters and as much as it pains you, Duncan is still a significant part of that. What's the excuse for the elite offense on the Trail Blazers?

I don't want those guys, I'm just saying, they're cost effective, 20 mpg options, who'd be potential fits. Obviously, if they could do better, of course they should.

I doubt they move Grant, just because of a potential minute crunch. More than likely, they move one of their centers.

Succeed, to what extent though? The Hawks have never been a legit contender. The only team that was, with the lineup you propose, had prime James. Outside of that, no elite team starts this way and few do period. The important thing is to be as complete and versatile as possible; not try to mimic what the perception of the Warriors is.

[dabom]

TD21 taking a wet on chinook per par.

[Robz4000]

Spurs are gonna get the best big they can to pair alongside LMA whether he's a PF or C and LMA will play the opposite big position. That's it and that's all.

[dabom]

Only person in ST that thinks LMA is a center.

Chinook

Thinking diaw or west can start as center for the Spurs.

[dabom]

@TD21 taking a wet on chinook per par.

[K...]

Chinook

Thinking diaw or west can start as center for the Spurs.

Daboqn: no nuance, no intelligence, no context. Lives for the chance that another man will notice him and give him attention.



Please tell me, what the issue here is.....are you advocating a certain style of big. ? "Not Chinook" is not an argument. Use words not emoticons

[dabom]

Daboqn: no nuance, no intelligence, no context. Lives for the chance that another man will notice him and give him attention.



Please tell me, what the issue here is.....are you advocating a certain style of big. ? "Not Chinook" is not an argument. Use words not emoticons

I'm advocating a center at the center spot and not a powerforward at the center spot.

Is that so hard?....

[K...]

I'm advocating a center at the center spot and not a powerforward at the center spot.

Is that so hard?....

No it isn't, but until we know Duncan retires it's not a clear picture, and as I said before best available talent is the way forward because there is no magic center prospect. If you insist on a shot blocker screener you might be missing out on talent. And this team is operating with a very thin margin. Flexibility is key. You'd agree you would rather see Aldridge at C than Parker start. That's the kind of settling this team might have to make. Just bout enough money to get everything.

[dabom]

You can argue and look like a dumbass.

[DMC]

Today centers are mostly for rebounding. There's not a lot of post moves being used to score and even so a couple threes in a row negates 3 good post moves. Get 4 3's and that's 6 decent post moves.

Instead of needing a big center, Spurs need two good rebounding bigs. This is what Tim provided. He hasn't been a post move guy for quite some time, at least not prolific. Spurs have relied on the outside shot and used the post game sparingly until recently.

The future of the NBA is 3pt shooting with cleanup beneath the basket, a couple long perimeter defenders who can get back in transition on both offense and defense and a point guard who's a threat to score from deep so you have to pick him up as he crosses the half court line. That spreads the defense, and it allows others to cut to the rim. Packing the paint with bigs to try to score is just going to bog down your offense and high scoring offenses will destroy you even if you're a good defensive team because you cannot stop great ball movement and outside shooting. We've seen this too often to think otherwise.

[Chinook]

Again, people are too obsessed with the starter. The Spurs will need a bona fide starting-caliber big. They don't need to worry about guys like Plumlee or Aldrich until they settle that out. Is it possible to get one of those guys to start while finding a better big to be the guy off the bench? Sure. But that's practically semantics. There's not way anyone can look at this depth chart:

PF: Aldridge, ?, ?
C: Plumlee, ?, ?

And think, "Sure, we can fill the rest of this rotation out with min guys, drafts picks and the room exception." Like how on Earth do people think that's going to work out better than it did this season?

[mudyez]

I'm curious, what timetable a retirement announcement would follow? Right after the finals?

I hope Tim comes back...hard to fear seeing a "good bye tim" headline right now.

Same goes for Manu.

[DMC]

Again, people are too obsessed with the starter. The Spurs will need a bona fide starting-caliber big. They don't need to worry about guys like Plumlee or Aldrich until they settle that out. Is it possible to get one of those guys to start while finding a better big to be the guy off the bench? Sure. But that's practically semantics. There's not way anyone can look at this depth chart:

PF: Aldridge, ?, ?
C: Plumlee, ?, ?

And think, "Sure, we can fill the rest of this rotation out with min guys, drafts picks and the room exception." Like how on Earth do people think that's going to work out better than it did this season?

It's all semantics. No one who matters gives a what we decide.