OT: Argentina V USA Copa

[apalisoc_9]

I've read some stories of players that couldn't make it pro in Argentina and came to play for smaller leagues here in the US. Some in the MLS. Some in US colleges. Actually, that Funes Mori guy that played today against the US, he played for the FC Dallas youth team after winning an MLS talent compe ion. Eventually he went back to Argentina, and today he's starting for the Argentina national team. So, you know, talent is out there. In some of these countries, talent comes to the talent pickers. The US is not there yet on that, but I think it'll get there. It will take time, and the MLS needs to keep expanding and getting stronger.

That's more of an outlier than the norm though.

[apalisoc_9]

There's none of that in Argentina (or Brazil, or South America in general) though. Kids get together and play the game in a gym or a park or the street. There really isn't the concept of academies down there. You can go try out for a team if you think you're good, but there's no guarantees. A guy like Banegas for example, he's what we call a pure "potrero" talent. A "potrero" being a run down soccer pitch you can find in most neighborhoods, like a basketball talent you'll get from Ruckers Park. He's good though, he eventually tried out for Boca when he was a kid and stuck, then raised through the minor leagues.

And he still made the league at a young age..super young. That's not even allowed in the US. You still have to go to universities to enhance your game.

Europe is fillled with soccer academies.

[ElNono]

That's more of an outlier than the norm though.

Sure, but I also think it also shows there's some development in that aspect in the US. The MLS didn't have those talent compe ions before. Heck, there was no MLS not that long ago. It's part of a process. Eventually, you'll nail a very good talent, and then you'll have a better team than you have right now. As I was telling mid, it's a process. It takes time, and I know it's hard to have patience, but at the very least it's recognizable they're doing the right things.

[ElNono]

And he still made the league at a young age..super young. That's not even allowed in the US. You still have to go to universities to enhance your game.

That's because Argie teams are broke. As soon as they see a talented guy they feel they can potentially sell to Europe, they nab him.

Europe is fillled with soccer academies.

Not really. There's really few academies, especially that produce actual pro players... Off the top of my head: Ajax, Barcelona, Anderletch, and a couple of British ones (ManU, Southampton IIRC)...

What they have a lot of is "soccer camps". It's like summer camps here, but sponsored by pro teams. But, again, that's more of an Euro thing.

[mudyez]

was that the copa final or an earlier round?

[ElNono]

was that the copa final or an earlier round?

semifinal

[midnightpulp]

tbh, I don't know where you get this academy thing. More than half the players in this Argentina team didn't really go to any "academy". They do start young and play on little leagues, and eventually if they think they're decent they go try out for an actual pro team (and anybody can really go to those tryouts, I used to play in Velez Sarsfield little leagues since it was close to home when I was a kid, and tried out once in River Plate). It's not invitation stuff, like some NBA/NFL tryouts here. I don't disagree with you that there's a huge difference in the process, everybody there wants to be a soccer player, so they go and try out, and the people that get to pick talent have a lot to pick from. That's something that will take time in the US, but it works a bit different now (they pick from college teams, or soccer little leagues, which there are quite a few, especially in areas like Florida, etc). But with the league expanding, having more teams and fans, you'll get that other system eventually set up, with kids growing up watching their home team that want to play for it.

And as much as team sport soccer is, you get a generational talent kind of guy (and it doesn't to be a Pele, Maradona or Messi), you then have a good foundation to put a team around. Most soccer teams really only have one or two stars and a bunch of utilitarian players. In that sense, it's not that much different from the NBA. And as Argentina has seen in the past 10 years or so, even having that kind of star doesn't guarantee silverware, but it does make for a top 3 team.

So I don't disagree the US is far, but it's traveling the right path. At least you're much further in that path than you were 10-15 years ago. It's still going to take some more time, but I can see where this is going, it's not bad if you're basically starting from scratch (which really is what you guys did after flirting with this thing back in the 50's).

As Apa said, the academy system is pretty well known. I was reading an article about it a bit ago, and these kids are scouted as young as 8 years old:

The first time I visited De Toekomst happened to coincide with the arrival of 21 new players — 7- and 8-year-olds, mainly, all from Amsterdam and its vicinity — who were spotted by scouts and identified as possible future professionals.

And unlike in baseball vs. the Dominican, we can't just brute force our way to being a power through population size and raw talent, since Germany (80 million), Brazil (200 million), Spain (50 million), and a host of other soccer countries are structuring their programs the same way.

[apalisoc_9]

Even if we concede the academy argument, there is no denying that soccer nations develop their kids at a much faster rate becuase its not frowned upon to do so.

I mean Ajax has a huge academy...Imagine doing something like that in the US...that would never happen.

And again, these Pro teams have junior clubs where 14-16 year olds play. Sure you have to try out, but that wont fly in the US...

[apalisoc_9]

Imagine The spurs having a junior equivalent or a B team where 16 years olds can play...from 16 to 17..you can improve a lot.

Funes mori would have never had the opportunity to improve his game the way he improved had he stayed and waited for a draft and play in the MLS...

[ElNono]

As Apa said, the academy system is pretty well known. I was reading an article about it a bit ago, and these kids are scouted as young as 8 years old:

Just what I was telling Apa, those "academies" are rare though. Even in Europe. And frankly, how good they are is certainly debatable. I'm sure there's some players that ended up making it, but IMO it's more of a system to hoard potential young players at an early age. But it's really more of a Euro thing. La Masia is probably the most famous, obviously, due to the generation of Barcelona players that ended up coming from there.

And unlike in baseball vs. the Dominican, we can't just brute force our way to being a power through population size and raw talent, since Germany (80 million), Brazil (200 million), Spain (50 million), and a host of other soccer countries are structuring their programs the same way.

You can't brute force your way to being a power, period. You can only build towards that. You don't need academies for that though. You need a solid league, better scouting of what you have in the country itself, and obviously a growing fanbase.

I actually hated to see a lot of very old players retiring here in the US (ie: Beckham). That kind of stuff doesn't really help or grow US soccer, it's just a money grab. But now the league is bringing some of those talented guys a little younger, and that's nicer to build the fanbase. I really like how, for example, Portland has embraced their soccer team. That helps.

[apalisoc_9]

As Apa said, the academy system is pretty well known. I was reading an article about it a bit ago, and these kids are scouted as young as 8 years old:



And unlike in baseball vs. the Dominican, we can't just brute force our way to being a power through population size and raw talent, since Germany (80 million), Brazil (200 million), Spain (50 million), and a host of other soccer countries are structuring their programs the same way.

Amsterdam have the biggest academies...Part of the reason why the dutch always have talent.

[ElNono]

Even if we concede the academy argument, there is no denying that soccer nations develop their kids at a much faster rate becuase its not frowned upon to do so.

I mean Ajax has a huge academy...Imagine doing something like that in the US...that would never happen.

And again, these Pro teams have junior clubs where 14-16 year olds play. Sure you have to try out, but that wont fly in the US...

No doubt that the process is different there, kids wanting to play for their teams, eventually becoming pros at it. For that to happen in the US, they need a stronger league and fanbase. I think it's slowly happening.

And honestly, I didn't think it was going to work out 4-5 years ago... I thought the MLS was just another money-grab fad, but they're now expanding, and I think that while they're baby steps, it's going in the right direction.

[ElNono]

Amsterdam have the biggest academies...Part of the reason why the dutch always have talent.

But the dutch never win anything though. Netherlands is not even a top 10 team (at least according to FIFA's ranking), and at the club level, I don't think they've won anything in a while.

Now, I'm not ting on academies, but it's also not a surefire system either. Structurally speaking, the concept of academies in poor countries like South America is damn near impossible to pull off. But they still manage to get stacked. (Not just Brazil or Argentina, but also Chile, Colombia, etc).

[midnightpulp]

Even if we concede the academy argument, there is no denying that soccer nations develop their kids at a much faster rate becuase its not frowned upon to do so.

I mean Ajax has a huge academy...Imagine doing something like that in the US...that would never happen.

And again, these Pro teams have junior clubs where 14-16 year olds play. Sure you have to try out, but that wont fly in the US...

Yep. And also, American kids growing up won't stand for just playing one sport (unless forced to by an insane parent). A typical US kid will grow up playing soccer, baseball, basketball, touch (or if a parent allows, tackle) football, and in the colder states, hockey might be added to that list. Golf and tennis might also be played. And during recess, they'll play a different sport everyday. I remember growing up, we'd play basketball this day, baseball that day, soccer this day, football that day.

A US athlete won't choose a specific sport until later in highschool, in most cases. Tennis is probably the one sport where the US had a soccer style academy system that identified young prodigies early and trained them like pros (i.e. Nick Bollettieri's academy), and these players then turned pro as young as 15, like Michael Chang and Pete Sampras.

In a soccer countries, it's 24/7 soccer.

[ElNono]

Anyways, gotta get some rest... I thought 'Murica missed their three suspended players, tbh, but when you look at their participation in the cup overall, they're the only concacaf team that made the top 4. That's not too shabby.

[midnightpulp]

But the dutch never win anything though. Netherlands is not even a top 10 team (at least according to FIFA's ranking), and at the club level, I don't think they've won anything in a while.

Now, I'm not ting on academies, but it's also not a surefire system either. Structurally speaking, the concept of academies in poor countries like South America is damn near impossible to pull off. But they still manage to get stacked. (Not just Brazil or Argentina, but also Chile, Colombia, etc).

They were a couple of chokes away from winning a couple World Cups, though. Most of these soccer crazed countries would kill to be that close.

[ElNono]

They were a couple of chokes away from winning a couple World Cups, though. Most of these soccer crazed countries would kill to be that close.

The dutch had terrific talent like Cryuff before this whole "academies" concept came around though. They have a good history as a soccer nation, that unfortunately ended up coming up short a few times.

I don't hate the "academy" concept, I just think it's demonstrably true that it's just one way of many to do things.

[midnightpulp]

The dutch had terrific talent like Cryuff before this whole "academies" concept came around though. They have a good history as a soccer nation, that unfortunately ended up coming up short a few times.

I don't hate the "academy" concept, I just think it's demonstrably true that it's just one way of many to do things.

I would assume that the academy thing probably came en vogue after Cryuff retired. Fun fact, he was also a damn good baseball player, so he played other sports.

I actually hate it in the sense that it kills the romanticism of the kid in his driveway, alone, no insane parents or dominating coaches around, just obsessively shooting jumpers till dusk. Or the kid in a Sao Paulo ghetto, mastering soccer on some local dirt field.

I do realize that isn't the "right way" to develop youth skills, but it might be the "right way" morally speaking.

But it's obviously a necessary evil now. The driveway kid won't be able to compete with the academy kid, even if the driveway kid has more natural ability and work ethic.

[diego]

Bunch of excuses. One, foreign kids play other sports too, tons and tons of examples of that. Two, US kids school programs are already academies! Just a quick search turned this up, I remember reading an article about this nearly a decade ago:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/baske...ny-top-hs.html

http://www.nj.com/hssports/blog/boys...to_get_an.html

And you see in the news in the US stories about kids in elementary school being groomed for x y z league.

When I went to school in the US 20+ years ago half my classmates on the football team were given protein shakes and supplements in 9th grade, by the time they came out they doubled their mass. "but us parents wouldn't stand for it!"

Also, as nono said it's not just a matter of drills and athleticism. A lot of it is skill and smarts, and that comes from cultural tradition. You know probably the main reason the US doesn't have a great chance to become better at soccer, is the same reason they are losing their advantage in baseball, basketball, etc etc- kids nowadays spend more time inside than they do playing sports outside, and the ones that do have less kids to play with/against. That, and the "everybody's a winner!" mentality.

[Killakobe81]

You're right. The Argentine ladies are straight fire. Save some of that grass fed beef then raze the er down. Rinse, repeat, for Brazil and Peru (Peruvian women are straight atomic fire). Then make the whole Central America/South America our southern agriculture hub. 'MURICA!

Brazil, argentina, ecuador, lots of fine women in America, South

[lefty]

Muricans should stick with stickball tbh

[midnightpulp]

Bunch of excuses. One, foreign kids play other sports too, tons and tons of examples of that. Two, US kids school programs are already academies! Just a quick search turned this up, I remember reading an article about this nearly a decade ago:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/baske...ny-top-hs.html

http://www.nj.com/hssports/blog/boys...to_get_an.html

And you see in the news in the US stories about kids in elementary school being groomed for x y z league.

When I went to school in the US 20+ years ago half my classmates on the football team were given protein shakes and supplements in 9th grade, by the time they came out they doubled their mass. "but us parents wouldn't stand for it!"

Also, as nono said it's not just a matter of drills and athleticism. A lot of it is skill and smarts, and that comes from cultural tradition. You know probably the main reason the US doesn't have a great chance to become better at soccer, is the same reason they are losing their advantage in baseball, basketball, etc etc- kids nowadays spend more time inside than they do playing sports outside, and the ones that do have less kids to play with/against. That, and the "everybody's a winner!" mentality.

If you think our soccer academy system is anywhere near as cutting edge or as strict as countries who've been doing it for decades. Furthermore, the links you posted are from high school programs. We're talking about 6-8 year olds being forced into an academy by a helicopter parent because their child showed some talent or a manipulative "scout" told them to do so.

As to the bolded, that's fine. A 9th grader can make more informed decisions than a 6 year old.

And if you went to school in Texas, they do employ a soccer country type of mentality toward their youth when it comes to football. Watch Friday Night Tykes on Netflix, and see how insane Texas parents are when it comes to the sport.

[The Gemini Method]

Muricans should stick with stickball tbh

I'd say you should stick to hockey, but you can't even win your sport's le. LOL Le Crabs.

[The Gemini Method]

If Peruvian women are as good as their food , atomic is a great word to describe.

They are. I dated a Lebanese-Peruvian chick for a while after college. When we went over to Lima, I was like wow. Like you said, the food is atomic fire, and the eye candy was non-stop. You can't but admire the ladies. So friendly, too.

[Relevancy]

If Americans are so compe ive why don't they work on the sport they aren't good at(soccer) and dominated like they do in other sports? The whole "well we don't really care about soccer" shtick is just an easy scape route many Americans use.

You can't be good at everything lel