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Go to YT channel Half Court Hoops and search Spurs.
Guys, many of you here have excellent technical knowledge on Basketball, would you share more on the Spurs offense.
Its philosophy, unique features, strengths, weaknesses....evolution through the years, players who are best fitted, players who could benefit with it, etc
In a way that is comprehensive to simple fans like myself (who lack technical basketball know-how).
Hope to hear from you! Thanks a lot!
Go to YT channel Half Court Hoops and search Spurs.
Coach Daniel also has some stuff on Spurs.
This is not a troll comment nor personal issue I have but it would make a remarkable difference if Danny Green could regain his three-point shooting accuracy that he had in 2012-13 (.429), 2013-14 (.415), and 2014-15 (.418). His 2015-16 season (.332) was way off.
I suppose this resource-based model fits best as the I/O model (opportunities and threats) involves more of a positioning proposition. The Spurs can't change conferences, etc.
One weakness of the Spurs offense is its imitability. Bud took it to Atlanta. The ball moves in Golden State (Kerr). Brown's approach even has the summer league Sixers looking pretty good.
What's less easy to imitate (and therefore more of a strength) are the player relationships. With Duncan gone, we've lost part of that core. At least we still have Ginobili and Parker to help communicate what has traditionally worked.
Seems like the ball moved less last year.
If I understand Pop's philosophy, the ball movement is to make up for inferior talent and athleticism. It's also to make the other team work on defense.
Our big studs are Kawhi and LaMarcus. LMA
is older and his offensive game is more polished. Kawhi is still finding his groove. Seems like Kawhi has an inordinate amount of trouble in situations that he takes a defender off the dribble (trying to penetrate). I think he will improve on his ability to catch defenders off guard. It's really a mind game at that point. Kawhi still has some growing to do in getting to the basket. Also, he hasn't figured out how to draw fouls in these situations. The more successful he is at beating defenders off the dribble, the more foul calls he will get. He has to prove his dominance before he gets the superstar foul calls.
Gasol will be a nice addition. I think he'll be a nice fit on both ends. We'll be missing Timmy's court awareness and Bobo's passing, but Gasol is an excellent distributor.
--Paul
Spurs offense has always evolved to take advantage of the strengths for that season and any rule changes.
Duncan prime- 4 down
manu prime- pnr
tp and Manu prime- up tempo/penetrate&kick out/ pnr
kawhi, Diaw and aging big three- beautiful game (my favorite)
kawhi and LMA- more iso (stagnant and not my favorite)
just my opinion on what I have seen. This year I HOPE to see the younger players play a lot and be more of a motion offense with more early offense/ fast beaks
Danny Green is a rhythm shooter playing alongside four ISO players who like to play in the half court.The slow space and lack of floor spacing is why Green struggled shooting during the RS. When the Spurs picked up the pace in the PS, Green found his shot. If he's going to have any success shooting this year, the Spurs are going to have to push the tempo to get Green some transition catch and shoot opportunities because he doesn't excel in a half court offense with very little ball movement. He might have more success playing with the second unit.
You have a valid point but he had a stretch there where he was missing off the fast break, secondary offense and in some of their standard half-court plays, ex. the 1-5 rub, which they've been running since "Hector was a pup." He was clearly off.Danny Green is a rhythm shooter playing alongside four ISO players who like to play in the half court.
cutewizard, you ask several questions here and it makes this a very multi-faceted subject. The Spurs have a fairly extensive playbook from what I've seen. When people refer to the Spurs' motion offense, it is sort of misleading because that is a very general statement. Their offense changes from trip to trip down the floor, so they might run a Flex set one time, a 3-2 motion play the next, or run post sets to capitalize on matchups. Regarding their philosophy, there is a pretty decent coaches clinic video of Pop that is good, as I recall. There may be a few of the principles you've heard or noticed over a period of time. Here is that video:
I've always referred to the Spurs offense as a motion offense. I not sure how accurate that is so don't quote me. From what I've heard, it has been a motion offense at least since Pop started coaching. The offense has a set of principals that makes it look more free flowing, but can only be pulled off by high IQ players. The most important aspect is to not force the issue (at least early in the shot clock). You need an initial action to get the defense out position (Duncan in the post drawing a double team,or a Tony/Manu pick n roll, taking advantage of a mismatch). After that you take advantage of the scrambling D. You start looking for the best shot possible by moving the ball around taking advantage of the defense trailing behind the play. It sounds simple, but you can mess it up by holding the ball looking to make a play thus allowing the D to get back into position or making a bad pass that gets stolen. This is why you need high IQ players or players how have played in the system for a couple of years(this is why Bonner has stuck around
Any ways...These are what I think the strengths and weaknesses are when done well:
Strengths:
-generates [E: open]efficient shots.
-makes the defense tried physical and mentally
-everyone gets involved boosting team morale
-allows the team to be compe ive even without a star player(like 2015 Hawks). [E: It maximizes a role players effectiveness by allowing them to play to their strengths and minimizes weaknesses.]
-even if the motion stalls, it will still create mismatches that can be exploited
Weaknesses:
-you need smart players to make it work
-can eat up the shot clock looking for a good shot
-because you don't force the issue unless the shot clock is low, the team doesn't draw many fouls
-[E: It takes the ball out of your stars hands thus lowing their stats.] Star players can desire more touches and shots which can disrupt the offense. Need to find unselfish stars then find the balance for team success
-[E: requires a lot of moving around. can tire the offensive players if poorly managed]
That's all I can think of for now. I might add to this later.
Last edited by All Mighty Janitor; 07-16-2016 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Grammer. added some stuff; it will be marked w/ an "[E:]"
Spurs are going to be hard pressed to re-create the camaraderie of the the 2014 championship team.
GSW has a massive advantage considering the horrible loss to the Cavs, they are seeking revenge just like the Spurs 2014 team. In addition they got Durant who has a good relationship with Curry and Igoudola (from Team USA).
Spurs had Duncan as the glue for everyone, now he's gone. The glue guy for Spurs right now is Mills.
Mills is certainly important. I see him as critical on the defensive end. While he may not be an elite defender in terms of length and size at the PG position, he sets a tone when he enters the game. He expends his energy in the hustle he brings to defending. Cory Joseph did this well also.
Back to our subject of offense, Mills always seems to get to the right spots offensively. There's no hesitation in his movement (cuts) nor in his shot. He's always ready (and looking) to shoot.
Another intangible with Mills is his enthusiasm on the bench. Cleveland is a great example of how this bench enthusiasm spills over to the five on the court. It's a more collegiate atmosphere. That energy is invaluable.
--Paul
-----------------------------------------------
Thank you good Sir!
Mabuhay (long live) and more power!
---------------------------------------------I've always referred to the Spurs offense as a motion offense. I not sure how accurate that is so don't quote me. From what I've heard, it has been a motion offense at least since Pop started coaching. The offense has a set of principals that makes it look more free flowing, but can only be pulled off by high IQ players. The most important aspect is to not force the issue (at least early in the shot clock). You need an initial action to get the defense out position (Duncan in the post drawing a double team,or a Tony/Manu pick n roll, taking advantage of a mismatch). After that you take advantage of the scrambling D. You start looking for the best shot possible by moving the ball around taking advantage of the defense trailing behind the play. It sounds simple, but you can mess it up by holding the ball looking to make a play thus allowing the D to get back into position or making a bad pass that gets stolen. This is why you need high IQ players or players how have played in the system for a couple of years(this is why Bonner has stuck around
Any ways...These are what I think the strengths and weaknesses are when done well:
Strengths:
-generates [E: open]efficient shots.
-makes the defense tried physical and mentally
-everyone gets involved boosting team morale
-allows the team to be compe ive even without a star player(like 2015 Hawks). [E: It maximizes a role players effectiveness by allowing them to play to their strengths and minimizes weaknesses.]
-even if the motion stalls, it will still create mismatches that can be exploited
Weaknesses:
-you need smart players to make it work
-can eat up the shot clock looking for a good shot
-because you don't force the issue unless the shot clock is low, the team doesn't draw many fouls
-[E: It takes the ball out of your stars hands thus lowing their stats.] Star players can desire more touches and shots which can disrupt the offense. Need to find unselfish stars then find the balance for team success
-[E: requires a lot of moving around. can tire the offensive players if poorly managed]
That's all I can think of for now. I might add to this later.
Thank you!
In the early days, Pop's offence was primarily 4 Down.I've always referred to the Spurs offense as a motion offense. I not sure how accurate that is so don't quote me. From what I've heard, it has been a motion offense at least since Pop started coaching. The offense has a set of principals that makes it look more free flowing, but can only be pulled off by high IQ players. The most important aspect is to not force the issue (at least early in the shot clock). You need an initial action to get the defense out position (Duncan in the post drawing a double team,or a Tony/Manu pick n roll, taking advantage of a mismatch). After that you take advantage of the scrambling D. You start looking for the best shot possible by moving the ball around taking advantage of the defense trailing behind the play. It sounds simple, but you can mess it up by holding the ball looking to make a play thus allowing the D to get back into position or making a bad pass that gets stolen. This is why you need high IQ players or players how have played in the system for a couple of years(this is why Bonner has stuck around
Any ways...These are what I think the strengths and weaknesses are when done well:
Strengths:
-generates [E: open]efficient shots.
-makes the defense tried physical and mentally
-everyone gets involved boosting team morale
-allows the team to be compe ive even without a star player(like 2015 Hawks). [E: It maximizes a role players effectiveness by allowing them to play to their strengths and minimizes weaknesses.]
-even if the motion stalls, it will still create mismatches that can be exploited
Weaknesses:
-you need smart players to make it work
-can eat up the shot clock looking for a good shot
-because you don't force the issue unless the shot clock is low, the team doesn't draw many fouls
-[E: It takes the ball out of your stars hands thus lowing their stats.] Star players can desire more touches and shots which can disrupt the offense. Need to find unselfish stars then find the balance for team success
-[E: requires a lot of moving around. can tire the offensive players if poorly managed]
That's all I can think of for now. I might add to this later.
It was only after Pop witnessed Magnano's Flex Offence first hand, used by Argentina to defeat the USA, that he began implementing his own Motion Offence. And he had the perfect piece to implement it in Ginobili.
I know that the offense was 4 down, but were the offensive principals there early on? For example, did the offense look to only take wide open shots or was there more a focus of forcing the issue to draw fouls?
Sure, the principles were already there. Just because the Argentina NT ran a lot of flex motion offense, doesn't mean that Pop didn't already use motion offenses. There are lots of different motion offenses although they all eventually boil down to read and react 5-0ut, 4-out/1-in, 3-out/2-in, or 2-out/3-in motion (the numbers refer to how many are "out" on the perimeter and how many players are "in" toward the low blocks or baseline). Remember, Pop was influenced by Larry Brown (who learned from Dean Smith) who ran the N. Carolina Motion Offense with a lot of drive and kick action.
Yeah, that's what I suspected. Thanks for the conformation
The Triangle Offense seems to be a good idea, what do you think guys?
I don't know a whole lot about the Triangle, but from what I heard, it doesn't generate many 3 point opportunities. If we want to make our offense more explosive we should be looking to add 3s where we can. Another problem I've heard is that the triangle can be predictable. I heard that teams have "figured it out" to a point where you can't use it all the time. Our motion offense isn't as predictable as the Triangle, but they both create good shot opportunities for everybody on the floor. We already use elements of the triangle in our sets; I'm not sure we should go out of our way to change the offense with little effect on the type of shots we take.
Just saying what I know and heard to add to the discussion; You'd be better off listening to someone else who is more confidant with their knowledge of the Triangle Offense.
Just because of Pau's familiarity with the Triangle and his passing ability.
But this PnR article talks about this offense like completely opposite of the Iso-Ball when in fact, the Lakers played a lot of Iso with Kobe in their starting lineup.
If you have on your team, extremely efficient iso scorers like Kawhi and LMA, you should play Iso with them at some point. And mix it up with Motion, like Phil did with the Triangle and Kobe.
Still don't have anyone that controls the pace. THAT is the issue.
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