Spurs: It's official Tim retires

[cobbler]

And Duncan lost to him 4 times in the playoffs...

And two of those four where in the conf finals (the highest bracket they can ever play in barring a conference realignment).

But hey, let's look at the bright side. They did manage to win ONE of those games it the two series.

[djohn2oo8]

And two of those four where in the conf finals (the highest bracket they can ever play in barring a conference realignment).

But hey, let's look at the bright side. They did manage to win ONE of those games it the two series.

yep

[djohn2oo8]

Faded in the playoffs, not clutch at all.

[K...]

No he is not winning. He said using the eye test, Kobe had a terrible peak even though that is bull . Three les in a row is a horrible peak?

No he said using stats Kobe has the worst peak, then amb did a terrible bit of sarcasm bringing in mcgrady.

I think everyone agrees Kobe was 10x more fun to watch at his peak but fun is not dominance. Dominance is defense and offense. Kobe was great offensive talent, decent defender at times. Tim is a top 5 defensive big and when pace corrected a good offensive player.

[K...]

And two of those four where in the conf finals (the highest bracket they can ever play in barring a conference realignment).

But hey, let's look at the bright side. They did manage to win ONE of those games it the two series.

Look at you again, using team stats to debate an individual leadership. You can't win citing stats, so you use team stats. No Kobe Shaq Lakers are a historic team. Duncan gets credit for beating them with less talent. Kobe gets less credit for beating Tim with more talent.



If your argument is that the 5th best all time player couldn't beat number 8 and 10 well that's a team issue.

[cobbler]

I mean which is harder, staying out of the lottery for ten years straight or repeating?

That's actually a really good point. And not only 10 straight but 19 straight for the Spurs. That is a phenomenal achievement and they deserve tons of accolades for being so consistent. It really is a remarkable accomplishment. Points to them. But it's not the best ever. Streaks of 10 or more consecutive playoff experiences have been accomplished by 15 teams by my count. Might be off by one or two but you get my point.

Only 6 teams have repeated.

And regardless, I place playoff achievements WAY above regular season accolades. You obviously differ. It's OK.

[K...]

Y'all are gonna be sorry when amchang learns to control their temper.

Like I said amb won the argument when he said Duncan had a better statistic peak.

And first laker fan said " but Kobe scored more

Then laker fan went "but Tim didn't repeat"

[K...]

That's actually a really good point. And not only 10 straight but 19 straight for the Spurs. That is a phenomenal achievement and they deserve tons of accolades for being so consistent. It really is a remarkable accomplishment. Points to them. But it's not the best ever. Streaks of 10 or more consecutive playoff experiences have been accomplished by 15 teams by my count. Might be off by one or two but you get my point.

Only 6 teams have repeated.

And regardless, I place playoff achievements WAY above regular season accolades. You obviously differ. It's OK.

That's the thing though, if staying in the playoffs was so easy why couldn't Kobe do it? Major red Mark on his legacy.

That's why we bring up daddy Shaq and daddy gasol because when Kobe was the clear number one option his team sucked more than Iverson.

[cobbler]

Y'all are gonna be sorry when amchang learns to control their temper.

Like I said amb won the argument when he said Duncan had a better statistic peak.

And first laker fan said " but Kobe scored more

Then laker fan went "but Tim didn't repeat"

Take things out of context much?

[cobbler]

That's the thing though, if staying in the playoffs was so easy why couldn't Kobe do it? Major red Mark on his legacy.

That's why we bring up daddy Shaq and daddy gasol because when Kobe was the clear number one option his team sucked more than Iverson.

I'll let you answer that.

If your argument is that the 5th best all time player couldn't beat number 8 and 10 well that's a team issue.

[K...]

I'll let you answer that.

Sure, but I'm setting a minimum bar. Win enough in the regular season to make the playoffs every year. Almost all the all time greats did it. Kobe is the outlier.

So you bring repeating, another team issue, and Duncan isn't the only all time great not to repeat. Hmmm.


Maybe making the playoffs every year is more important than repeating, especially considering Duncan lost to some very good teams in 2000, 2004, 2006, 2008. Do you think they should have won those series?

Then we have injury excuses (hi cub) for 2000 and 2015.

Yeah Kobe played with some teams, but the bar was so low...make the playoffs

[K...]

I mean maybe it's just possible that every time you saw Tim play he was the best player on the floor except against LeBron. THis I think is true from 1999 to 2007.

[cobbler]

Sure, but I'm setting a minimum bar. Win enough in the regular season to make the playoffs every year. Almost all the all time greats did it. Kobe is the outlier.

I'm sure there are many greats that have missed the playoffs. Heck, you previously brought up Pau insinuating he lead Kobe to the promised land. Well, prior to landing on the Lakers he never made the playoffs. Hmmmmmm You can't have it both ways my friend.

So you bring repeating, another team issue, and Duncan isn't the only all time great not to repeat. Hmmm.

Absolutely true. That solidifies my point about the difficulty to do so.

Maybe making the playoffs every year is more important than repeating, especially considering Duncan lost to some very good teams in 2000, 2004, 2006, 2008. Do you think they should have won those series?

Absolutely making the playoffs is important. It's the number one regular season goal. It's a stain on the Laker tradition no doubt and lot's of cir stances lead to it but no excuses, it's been a terrible few years trying to right the ship. Overall though, the Laker history of playing in nearly half the NBA finals somehow overshadows that negativity. I just happen to put more value on championships, head to head playoff series/game records, and defending les above making the playoffs and subsequently becoming one of the 29 losers. No worries.

[cobbler]

I mean maybe it's just possible that every time you saw Tim play he was the best player on the floor except against LeBron. THis I think is true from 1999 to 2007.

Nope. Not possible. Sorry. I've seen Tim play when he wasn't even the best player on his own team. Silly comment.

Heck, simply scroll up a few posts and look at the vids. Unless of course you are saying that while the Spurs were getting spanked 8-1 in two conference finals TD was still the best player on the floor in each of the games by "reputation" as kobe was cleaning the spurs clocks.

[midnightpulp]

Spoken like a faithful Spurs fan! Well done and entirely expected.

No. It's because le defenses are meaningless. You don't get any extra hardware at the end of the day.

What matters is the count. And I take 6 les won every other year over 5 with a repeat.

Tell with a straight face you take the Lakers winning 2 in the 80's via a repeat over the Celtics winning 3 here and there? You know you wouldn't. All anyone would remember is that the Celtics won 3 in the decade to the Lakers 2.

[midnightpulp]

Peak Kobe was more dominant than Tim. That is for sure. Accept it and move on.

Not even close, unless you only consider one side of the ball.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and if Cobbler wants to pump up the value of le defenses, I've already proven that Tim played better than Kobe in le defense years.

As we all know, les are team accomplishments, as are the invented accomplishment of a back-to-back. That said, I was wondering who plays better during the playoffs between the the two players with the most rings of their generation when going for a repeat. Not trolling. Nor am I attempting to on Kobe. I think their raw stats are very to close to a wash, but Duncan simply has more floor impact defensively with his rebounding, shotblocking, interior presence and much superior +/- stats, not to mention is more clutch. In any event, both players raise their games during a repeat year, which should be commended (Kobe does see a slight drop in RAPM from his playoff average, however).

Tim Duncan

22ppg, 12.4rpg, 3.4apg, 2.0bpg, .518 FG%. +6.4 RAPM, 25.1PER

Clutch stats. (I think these are important to include because they illustrate how a player performs under pressure in the defense of his le). I'm using the accepted, mainstream definition of "clutch" here: Last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter or OT, no team ahead by more than 5 points.

35 made shots on .514% shooting.

Kobe Bryant

28.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.9apg, 1.36spg .447 FG%. +3.98 RAPM, 22.6 PER.

Clutch stats.

39 made shots on on .367 shooting. I find Kobe's relatively poor clutch time performance interesting. As if the pressure got to him in these situations, the pressure of defending your team's le. Basketball is indeed a team game, so Kobe's shaky late game play wasn't enough to doom the Lakers.

[cobbler]

No. It's because le defenses are meaningless. You don't get any extra hardware at the end of the day.

What matters is the count. And I take 6 les won every other year over 5 with a repeat.

Tell with a straight face you take the Lakers winning 2 in the 80's via a repeat over the Celtics winning 3 here and there? You know you wouldn't. All anyone would remember is that the Celtics won 3 in the decade to the Lakers 2.

You don't get extra hardware for making the playoffs either. So just as meaningless in your opinion I guess?

Absolutely what matters is the count!!!!! Could not agree more. I also would take 6 les over 5 anyway you cook it. On the other hand, I think if you take a 5 year span winning 3 in a row is a better accomplishment than winning 3 every other year over that 5 years.

And I can tell you with a straight face I would take the 3. Total trumps all. Just like us and the Celts. 17 trumps 16 any way you cut it. The lakers have been more consistent over the years and the celts had A more dominant extended run but many many very bad years without making the playoffs. No way I am going to say the lakers are on top even though they were more consistent. And even if we tie them they still get the le in my opinion until we surpass them because they beat us head to head IN THE PLAYOFFS. I find that a much more important qualifier than making the playoffs. Sorry, it is what it is.

[cobbler]

Oh, and if Cobbler wants to pump up the value of le defenses, I've already proven that Tim played better than Kobe in le defense years.

Can't argue with any of that and kudos to Tim. And as you said, those numbers are close to a wash. But also as you and I agreed on above, what matters is count and it's 3-0. Team, individual, or otherwise.

I do find it interesting though that you put so much value on the pressure of defending your le in clutch moments yet find no value on the overall le defense. But you are en led to your opinions. Just don't call me a re for placing more value on head to head playoff stats and le defenses over making the playoffs. It's all subjective and up for interpretation.

Bottom line. My original comment that MJ was lightyears ahead of TD in le defenses, which unbelievably has led to pages and pages of banter, is accurate. Is it a team accomplishment, of course, but it also get applied to individuals achievements and leaders of said teams, right or wrong, tend to get the credit/blame for team accomplishments more often than not. AMB asks me to explain how a team goal is an individual one and gets all flustered and now we are on the merry go round between teams, individuals etc.

[K...]

When your ranking 5 against 5 you end up in a pudding match. I mean one guy is to top ten the other is top 15 we're not talking a huge gap.


Again, the central premise is that in no year did Kobe have better advanced stats than Tim.


le defense does matter. But again, team issue. Making playoffs is also a team issue.

But spurs fans are insisting that any discussion of " most dominant peak" include the radical notion that defense should be included. Lakers f fighting like dogs with rabies to not concede this point. Straw man after straw man have been thrown.


Next thing to appear in this thread is Duncan's divorce.

[ambchang]

True, we finally agree on something.. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I clearly admit I was wrong.

You clearly admit you are wrong how? By following me around?

You're just some guy who thinks he knows it all and when someone shows you your wrong you get all flustered and start arguing nonsense. The only reason I have stuck round the last couple days is the humor your stupidity is supplying.

Thank you for your charity. A few post ago, you were talking about why you left this place is because of people like me, then now, all of a sudden, you are sticking around because you are humoring me? Which one is it?

Don't waste your time. I will not be reading it. You ARM made me realize why I don't visit here much anymore. After spending a few hours over the last couple days perusing and commenting it all came back to me today seeing your ignorance in full bloom. You, like DPG, DMC and a few others are so damn sensitive when anyone points out any faults your precious Spurs or TD might have. It's both sad and comical. One little truthful comment that TD is light years behind jordan with respect to defending les and all this ensues. You outright lied and put words in my mouth and then made arguments against them. Absolutely pathetic. I'll waste no more of my time discussing anything with you since you just cannot grasp simple concepts.

Take care and always cherish those regular season accolades!!!!

Logical thinking skills dumbass. Again, I suppose I should not have given you the benefit of the doubt. In the future, when dealing with your ignorance, i'll dumb down things to the grade school level since that seems to be where you reside.

Yes, because I should have known what people are talking about when I see things like "logic skills", or "read skills", or "write skills". But for you not to express your thoughts clearly, it was me who is the dumbass. I mean, you really dumbed it down to a level that sounds like a re , which you are clearly very good at.

After reading a bit here over the last few days I see all these threads where you take on arguments with many only to get penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". It always ends the same way too. You calling the others re s when you have nothing left in the quiver. (gosh I'm hoping the quiver reference isn't too abstract for you to get the point.

You mean like this?

First response to me:

Really? Well, it's first and foremost a team accomplishment. It's a team sport duh. As individuals you comprise the team therefore it also becomes an individual accomplishment. That's what being a team is about. Individuals accomplishing team goals. Being the team captain/leader brings more responsibility and with it, as always, more individual accolades/criticisms depending on the outcome. It's not rocket science.

Logical thinking skills dumbass. Again, I suppose I should not have given you the benefit of the doubt. In the future, when dealing with your ignorance, i'll dumb down things to the grade school level since that seems to be where you reside.

And yet you cannot grasp that 5.3>5.0, 4>3, 18>16, and in the case of TD vs MJ defenses 4>0. But hey you get a point for knowing 19>15 so your not a complete re !

Never implied Fisher was anywhere on my list. Read the post. Maybe after a few tries you might even comprehend it along with the context from where it came.

Context ambchang. The caption/leader reference was directly with Kobe and Tim in the context of the discussion. You only brought Fisher into it because you seem to think that invalidates my comments when they were clearly pointing to Kobe's leadership. Wrong again per the usual.

We all know why you brought up Fisher. I'll not go down that grade school path with you. I should have simply said "leaders" and left the "captain" part off since you seem to have difficulty with concepts.

I admire your courage in admiting you were penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". But that is the way you react, don't try to project it onto me.

BRILLIANT logic there I tell ya!!!!

Your not very good at this are you?

There are 90 people asked to name their top 3 car brands:

30 people named Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW. 30 people named Mercedes, BMW, and Bugatti. The remaining 30 people named BMW, Bugatti and Porcshe.

So Porsche got 60 votes in the top 3, Mercedes got 60 votes it he top 3, Bugatti got 60 votes in the top 3, and BMW got 90 votes in the top 3.

OMG, 4 cars widely considered in the top 3! How is that possible. Totally blew my mind!

[cobbler]

You clearly admit you are wrong how? By following me around?



Thank you for your charity. A few post ago, you were talking about why you left this place is because of people like me, then now, all of a sudden, you are sticking around because you are humoring me? Which one is it?



Yes, because I should have known what people are talking about when I see things like "logic skills", or "read skills", or "write skills". But for you not to express your thoughts clearly, it was me who is the dumbass. I mean, you really dumbed it down to a level that sounds like a re , which you are clearly very good at.



You mean like this?

First response to me:














I admire your courage in admiting you were penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". But that is the way you react, don't try to project it onto me.



There are 90 people asked to name their top 3 car brands:

30 people named Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW. 30 people named Mercedes, BMW, and Bugatti. The remaining 30 people named BMW, Bugatti and Porcshe.

So Porsche got 60 votes in the top 3, Mercedes got 60 votes it he top 3, Bugatti got 60 votes in the top 3, and BMW got 90 votes in the top 3.

OMG, 4 cars widely considered in the top 3! How is that possible. Totally blew my mind!

Not going to rehash the whole thread all over AMB. And I only replied back after saying i was done because you outright lied and put words in my mouth and I chose to refute them.

...and yet when you boil it all down MJ is still lightyears ahead of TD in le defenses. Go figure. And here I'll simple it down for ya since the "lightyears" term might confuse or even upset you since you seem so very sensitive. MJ had much greater success defending his les than TD did.

And you have shown NOTHING to prove otherwise.

[ambchang]

...and yet when you boil it all down MJ is still lightyears ahead of TD in le defenses. Go figure.

I am surprised you have totally dropped:
1) a repeat = .1 of a championship
2) There MUST be 10 players widely considered to be in a top 10 list
3) You don't visit here anymore because of people like me, and yet you hanged around to entertain me the last few days
4) Calling someone a re is because you were painted to a corner
5) Multiple people can individually use "I agree" on the exact same points.
6) You weren't trolling, even though you were just taking jabs at people

And yes, Jordan is clearly way ahead of Duncan in le defense. I am happy and surprised you realized 5 > 0

[cobbler]

I am surprised you have totally dropped:
1) a repeat = .1 of a championship
2) There MUST be 10 players widely considered to be in a top 10 list
3) You don't visit here anymore because of people like me, and yet you hanged around to entertain me the last few days
4) Calling someone a re is because you were painted to a corner
5) Multiple people can individually use "I agree" on the exact same points.
6) You weren't trolling, even though you were just taking jabs at people

And yes, Jordan is clearly way ahead of Duncan in le defense. I am happy and surprised you realized 5 > 0

All 6 points above have been hashed and rehashed. I explained why or showed rebuttals to all and have no desire to go over them yet again. I'm honored you would take the time to create such a list to be honest.

And thank you for admitting that MJ is clearly ahead of TD in le defenses. Oh by the way, doesn't that contradict your very fist comment to me asking how team accomplishments are considered individual ones?

Regardless, thank you for coming full circle and admitting my original comment was accurate regardless of your questioning it to begin with.

[ambchang]

Amb is really sensitive. He backs himself into a corner each time and loses.

. How can I argue with Kobe > Duncan. That's it. Move on? I mean, your idiocy got called out, don't call me sensitive for pointing out your horrible points (none in this case) and say you've won.

Btw, have I thanked you for letting me know Duncan ~ Hakeem in their respective peaks? I always thought Hakeem > Duncan but you insisted I look at the numbers and it's pretty clear they are so close, with Duncan even holding a slight edge in the playoffs.

Thanks.