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Kawhitstorm is doing the spinning, like Dirk trying to hit a baseballmid spinnin so hard
Kawhitstorm is doing the spinning, like Dirk trying to hit a baseball
Clearly a click bait article written by a Tom Heinsohn level homer, but still, gotta argue this.
Let me be clear that I think McHale is one of the top 5 PF in NBA history. He is in the Dirk/KG/Barkley group, and is in my top five because of this, but on the other hand, he was the only career 2nd banana in the group, and he is not close to Duncan in terms of being the GOAT PF.
There are arguments that Duncan > Bird, and Bird was the alpha on those Celtics teams.
General comments: The author prefaced the article by saying that we can't compare stats directly because of different eras, but then proceeded to list a bunch of stats for some PF as some sort of proof that they are greats. Choose a lane, can you or can't you compare stats across different eras?
Point 1: First and foremost, McHale simply had far more post moves and a better shooting touch
McHale, to me, is the most polished low post scorer in NBA history, but to say that Hakeem was a distant second? I disagree with that. Hakeem is about as good as McHale in terms of low post moves, and was quicker. Duncan is probably third given the variety he had, but I agree that McHale > Duncan in terms of post moves. But so what? Rony Seikaly had more post moves than Shaq, doesn't make Seikaly better than Shaq.
Point 2: Kevin was better in the clutch
Huh? He listed a whole bunch of stats, and listed the year Duncan played on two twisted ankles guarded by the Wallace brothers as proof. In 2003, Duncan put up one of the finest finals ever. Duncan also played a majority of his prime in a grind it out era where scores were routinely in the 70s and 80s, while McHale played in an era where 100 to 110 points were the norm. Duncan simply had better stats in playoffs and finals, traditional or advanced, than McHale. If he wants to go that route, he doesn't even have a case.
Point 3: McHale excelled in an era featuring a plethora of great big men
Hold on, the people he listed that McHale played against:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Dan Issel
Patrick Ewing
Moses Malone
Jack Sikma
Alvan Adams
Brad Daugherty
Larry Nance
Bill Laimbeer
Jeff Ruland
Tom Chambers
Buck Williams
Rick Mahorn
Dennis Rodman
It's a clear case where the author thought more = better, but actually ended up hurting his case. Jeff Ruland? Laimbeer? Adams? Sikma? Mahorn? Good players, but ones that you present as evidence that McHale played against an era of great big men? No. It's like listing Bogut, Sanders, Ratliff, Brian Grant, Jefferson, Jermaine O'Neal, and PJ Brown as some sort of proof that Duncan played against some great big men.
And what's with Duncan's list of Garnett, Shaq, Dirk, Gasol and Howard? Then somehow dismissing Howard and Pau? Those two are better than Issel, Lanier, Gilmore, Hayes, Sikma, Adams, Daugherty, Nance, Laimbeer, Ruland, Chambers, Williams, Mahorn and Rodman. if you are listing Lanier, Gilmore, Unseld, Walton, and Issel (way over the hill by the time they played against Duncan's prime), you better list Malone, Hakeem, Ewing for Duncan. What about Webber, Rasheed, Yao? BTW, Shaq was better than anyone McHale faced, other than Hakeem (Jabbar was past his prime by the time they faced off), and speaking of which, why did he not list Hakeem for McHale?
4: McHale was a far better foul shooter and shooter in general
Bill Wennington was a better foul shooter and shooter in general than Wilt Chamberlain, doesn't make Bill better.
5: Kevin was overshadowed on his own team by the greatness of Bird
And it could be argued Duncan > Bird
6: The NBA of the 1980s and early 1990s was much better than the expansion-diluted era Duncan dominated.
The game evolved and got more sophisticated, especially defense, in most of Duncan's prime. Also, foreign players added to the talent pool I believe the league went from 23 to 27 teams during McHale's career. 29 to 30 during Duncan's career. Dilution is much less of a problem in Duncan's time simply because teams can adjust accordingly with much fewer teams added.
7uncan's biggest statistical advantage over Kevin is in rebounding
The main points are:
1) Duncan's era got more rebounds - pure bull crap, as Duncan's got way better rebounding percentages or rebounds per 100 possessions than McHale's time. In Duncan's absolute prime (2003), an average team gets 3469 rebounds for the season, in McHale's absolute prime (1986) a team gets 3572 rebounds on average.
2) People box out some times and get no statistical credit - well, I guess McHale is the only one who does this, and Duncan never does.
3) McHale played with other big time rebounders while Duncan didn't - Robinson was a great rebounder, and some very good rebounding wings (like Manu, Kawhi) Besides, he didn't have those other great rebounders boxing out for him so that he can get easy rebounds like McHale could (see point 2). can't have your cake and eat it too
8: McHale was a much more versatile defender
Guess he never saw Duncan defending players from Mark Jackson (PG) to Shaq (C)
9: McHale peak was higher
26.1/9.9/2.6/1.4 and 60% from the field, and buzz for MVP
Duncan in 2003 - 25.5/12.7/3.7/2.5 and 51% from the field, and actually got the MVP.
I didn't even go into advanced stats like /48 and per 100, because Duncan would look even better. I mean, when you have to straight out lie to prove your point, you know you don't even have a point to begin with
10: Kevin was incredibly efficient
So was James Donaldson, Reggie Miller and Tyson Chandler, too bad it doesn't make them the greatest anything
11: Duncan was the focus of the Spur offense for much of his career/Duncan was fortunate to avoid major injury throughout a long career
And Duncan led his team to 5 les, including 4 as the clear focus of the offense. McHale got 3 as the 2nd banana.
Then he somehow forgot Duncan had a major injury in 2000 that took him out of the playoffs and robbed him with much of his athleticism, or how he had to wear these heavy knee braces for much of his career and had to change the way he ran.
Again, that lie thing.
12: When Duncan faced the few good big men of his time like Kevin Garnett or Shaq, he usually was stymied or outplayed
What? Duncan outscored, outrebounded, out assisted and out blocked Shaq in their h2hs. Duncan had pretty much the same stats as Garnett and had a better record in their H2H. What the .
13: People also tend to overrate Duncan slightly because he came across as a nice, quiet guy in a league too often filled with look at me, prima donna superstars
So McHale was an asshole .. oh, but wait, he went on and talked about how he was a great guy and endeared the media. So shouldn't Mchale be even MORE overrated because he was the nicer guy?
14: Duncan also hung around for several seasons well past his peak or even All-Star form
That actually pulls DOWN his average.
15: In 1987, McHale played the entire playoffs on a broken foot and a sprained ankle
Duncan played on two severed sprained ankles in 2005 and won the Finals MVP that year. Thank you very much.
16:McHale was more athletic than the robotic Duncan.
Stromile Swift was more athletic than both of them combined. So?
And so far, we know McHale was more athletic, had better low post skills, and was a better shooter than Duncan, and yet he won less championships as a 2nd banana as Duncan did as the alpha, put up worse stats, traditional or advanced, AND got far less accolades and career achievements than Duncan. Man, McHale is such an underachiever.
17) Duncan did not deserve the 2005 NBA Finals award (Manu did)
Too bad he still won it, was the center of the Spurs offense and defense, and put up great numbers in the series. And even if Duncan did NOT win the 05 Finals MVP, and McHale did win the 86 Finals MVP, it's still 2:1, Duncan. McHale can't even win with a handicap, that tells you how far apart they are.
And were one finals series more pressure packed then the other? Will McHale's family be murdered if he lost? People bring their D games against the Spurs or something? I don't get it.
And Duncan got time off, well, didn't you say earlier Duncan packed more games past his prime to stat pad? Guess what taking time off does to your totals?
18) Kevin's excellent stats were lessened even more by spending half of his career as a sixth man
So he wasn't even good enough to start on his team. Great.
19) Yes, Duncan did win consecutive season MVPS in 2002 and 2003. But if one accepts my argument that the NBA of the 1980s was far, far tougher than the expansion-diluted version of the kate 1990s and early 2000s, then these MVPs aren't as meaningful
A) I don't accept that argument
B) That's still 2 more then McHale got
20) McHale was a superstar on arguably the greatest team in NBA history
If he didn't play for that team, he wouldn't have to fight against those other rebounders (point 7), he can't be as efficient because the defense will be on him all the time (almost every point), and he wouldn't have been the 6th man (point 18). This guy just kept arguing against himself.
21) Injuries and age forced Kevin to retire in 1993, but he still showed how great he could be in his last playoffs far more than Duncan did.
, so we are comparing last games now? I guess Kobe is the best of all time then.
Looked real ripped when he was bashing in Conor who called him Mr. Skinny-Fat:
Except Ortiz would get his face bashed in by the props & run circles around by footballers.Yes, because they're difference sports. And like you need stamina in soccer, you need strength in rugby, and both are as legitimate of athletic traits as one another.
Mr. Below-average-athlete Dimmer tested out to be more agile than CoJo who was drafted in large part because of his athleticism. So, I guess you mean to tell me the stupid draft combine biometrics aren't exactly the best indicators of one's athletic abilities.Kawhi is not a great athlete. Slow ass first step. Poor vertical. Poor acceleration. And I guess a top 5 worst bench press (he's obviously worked on his core strength, though). Jimmer was a touted as a below average athlete, as well.
Kawhi struggling to drive early in his career had to do w/ him playing PF in college & lacking ball handling skills but dude was somehow rated the weakest wing player in the draft despite not having trouble against college PFs.
Ranking Prospect 1 Isaiah Thomas 2 Iman Shumpert 3 Andrew Goudelock 4 Norris Cole 5 Brandon Knight 6 Marshon Brooks 7 Travis Leslie 8 Jimmy Butler 9 Scotty Hopson 10 Shelvin Mack 11 Tobias Harris 12 Jimmer Fredette 13 Kemba Walker 14 JaJuan Johnson 15 Chris Singleton 16 Malcolm Lee 17 Derrick Williams
40 Kyle Singler 41 Kawhi Leonard
So according to the draft combines Andrew Goudelock was the 3rd best athlete in the draft but dude is out of the league despite being a knockdown shooter b/c he can't handle NBA athletes ala Dimmer.
Derrick Williams got drafted #2 b/c of his athleticim which has NOTHING to do w/ bball IQ but based on the combine results Dimmer was rated a better athlete.Don't know what this proves or your point? What that combine metrics don't translate to being a good basketball player, soccer player, baseball player, etc? Of course they don't, because in most sports, you need a skillset and "IQ" to accompany athleticism. But we're not talking about skills or bballIQ. We're talking about athleticism, and you can save yourself a lot of googling if you just admit baseball players are great athletes. Not that hard.
Last edited by Kawhitstorm; 07-25-2016 at 03:13 PM.
Ashton's PR: 66m
Female equivalent:
Dat Beisbol training:
Last edited by Kawhitstorm; 07-25-2016 at 03:37 PM.
Getting it now. Physique doesn't translate into athleticism, skill, etc.Looked real ripped when he was bashing in Conor who called him Mr. Skinny-Fat:
It doesn't do an MLB power hitter any good to be built like a prop (Prince Fielder is still probably undersized for a prop position) or built like a 160lb soccer player. Ortiz has a good size/weight/strength for what his position demands.Except Ortiz would get his face bashed in by the props & run circles around by footballers.
Why are you talking about combine metrics anyhow? The examples I post of the athleticism from baseball and soccer players are usually in game metrics.snip
And combine metrics are still a good indicator of athletic potential, despite the exceptions. Cherry picking a few examples of poorly rated athletes at the combine who turned out to be good in game athletes doesn't change that fact. One of your weaker spins.
Just admit baseball players are athletic, some of the most athletic people in all of team sports actually (size, speed, strength, leaping ability, arm strength, core strength, etc) and we can move on.
Ashton's PR: 66m
Female equivalent:
Dat Beisbol training:
Are you really going to compare a specialist to a decathlete?
If so, female better in the 1500 by 24 seconds:
Why don't you use a comparison that makes sense?
Female equivalent:
PB Javelin: 48.33m
Det baseball training paying off. Ashton is by far the best athlete in the world
"When both teams played each other in the playoffs, and both players played, Kobe: 4, Jim: 2."Exactly the same thing. Kirby is 1-3 vs. Nash and Dirk.
Or maybe don't be an idiot and use head-to-head matchups as proof of anything?
Until basketball becomes a 1-on-1 game, head-to-head is meaningless in player comparison.
How about this?
8>12
-- LkrFan
"Team sports" matters when it's 4>3, or 4=4, or 5>4, or 5=5, but not H2H? Got it.
Women's WR: 72m
Why don't you use a comparison that makes sense?
Female equivalent:
PB Javelin: 48.33m
Jessica's PR: 48m
Difference: 24m
Men's WR: 98m
Aston's PR: 66m
Difference: 32m
Dat Beisbol arm
Women's WR: 72m
Jessica's PR: 48m
Difference: 24m
Men's WR: 98m
Aston's PR: 66m
Difference: 32m
Dat Beisbol arm
Those fat gain programs are churning out elite athletes.
Getting called out by a pitcher who stood his ground:
Ashton's PB in the 1500: 4:14Women's WR: 72m
Jessica's PR: 48m
Difference: 24m
Men's WR: 98m
Aston's PR: 66m
Difference: 32m
Dat Beisbol arm
World Record 1500: 3:26
=36% difference
Asthon's PB in the Jav: 66m
World Record in the Jav: 98m
=31% difference
So Ashton's baseball training has gotten him closer to the Jav WR than his "soccer style stamina" training has gotten him closer to the 1500m WR
Baseball wins again
And don't bring up sprinting. Asthon was a leadoff hitter and terror on the basepaths, stealing bases and turning doubles into triples, so he learned his sprinting a en playing baseball
Dumbass, it's physiologically impossible to be the best sprinter among decathletes & be any where close to the 1500 WR. Meanwhile, sprinters do a LOT of weight training thus he should have a strong arm but alas......he grew up playing besibol.Ashton's PB in the 1500: 4:14
World Record 1500: 3:26
=36% difference
Asthon's PB in the Jav: 66m
World Record in the Jav: 98m
=31% difference
So Ashton's baseball training has gotten him closer to the Jav WR than his "soccer style stamina" training has gotten him closer to the 1500m WR(Must have been a pinch runner)
Dumbass, it's physiologically impossible to be the best sprinter among decathletes & be any where close to the 1500 WR. Meanwhile, sprinters do a LOT of weight training thus he should have a strong arm but alas......he grew up playing besibol.
Take the L, bro.
You're dumb. Some people don't have naturally strong arms. And no amount of weight training can turn a 75mph natural thrower into a 95mph.
Weak-armed baseball players in the MLB are usually 2nd basemen, 1st basemen, and sometimes shortstops.
FIFY
But....but..but..he grew up training like a besibol player, it helped him tremendously to develop his arm strength.Some people don't have naturally strong arms. And no amount of weight training can turn a 75mph natural thrower into a 95mph.
It no doubt helped.FIFY
But....but..but..he grew up training like a besibol player, it helped him tremendously to develop his arm strength.
Imagine what his arm strength would look like if he grew up only playing floppytrot. Probably like Carl Lewis's, the GOAT 20th Century Olympian
Anyhow, I think you're mad, bro.
I got Ashton. I got Jordan, Steph. I got the best sprint speeds, verts. Got MLB players dunking like men and you got Ronaldo dunking on an 8 foot goal.
This is ova.
Forbes' list of world's highest-paid athletes
Rank Name Sport 1 Cristiano Ronaldo Football 2 Lionel Messi Football 3 LeBron James Basketball 4 Roger Federer Tennis 
Vs. soccer players?
Forbes' list of world's highest-paid athletes
Rank Name Sport 1 Cristiano Ronaldo Football 2 Lionel Messi Football 3 LeBron James Basketball 4 Roger Federer Tennis
Indeed I do.
Deflecting to highest paid athletes now because baseball players are proven to be more athletic
Hamilton has less distance to accelerate and reaches a much higher speed. He reaches 23.3 mph, which is more than 34 feet per second
You don't reach top until about 60 meters.
Indeed
Scrub doing scrub activities for scrub salaries.
He's a starter quality batter and a solid defender with an above average DWAR.Scrub doing scrub activities for scrub salaries.
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