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Looks like it.
I can see a lot of Manu and David Lee pick and rolls happening. Might even be the next Tiago Splitter for us.
Looks like it.
Last edited by SAGirl; 07-29-2016 at 08:29 PM. Reason: I realized later I went completely off topic lol sorry
I have been a staunch advocate of putting more in the shoulders of younger guys who have shown to be above dleague and summer league level. If a guy is not ready and he can benefit from the dleague, by all means dleague is ideal to have a safe environment to make mistakes and correct them without raising Pop's ire, but for guys who had already dominated dleague and summer league more of the same is of little help. Those guys need a real challenge. They need to be thrown into the ocean to swim with sharks bc they have already seen enough of goldfishes. Chinook will love the fish referenceAnyways, it's a fine line if Pop doesn't want to let a guy get eaten by sharks too early, but he at least needs to wrestle with some fishes in between the goldfish and the shark to grow you know? lol fishes are not my best reference but came to mind.
Anyways, I guess raybies already conditioned me to expect the same ol from Pop, so that I am not disappointed this season when we see more of it. As for Dejounte, I am in his camp, but he's very young and it's hard to say how he fits with all this. So long as Tony and Manu have the ball in their hands, he won't develop much and he does have a lot he can work on in the dleague right this second. But it's really hard to say, he can show off in training camp so much potential that Pop incorporates him somehow.
As for Lee, I think the team needed a vet anyways. If Pop brought him in to leave all the youngsters benched, even those who have shown they can play in the NBA then that does the team a disservice... so I am choosing to believe the truth is somewhere in between. I don't think he's guaranteed a super spot, but he for sure won't be Bonner. But if we look at Butler he wasn't Bonner either. He started ahead of the youngsters early in the season and as they improved and surpassed him, he then took a back seat. When one of them regressed, Butler was ready to step back up.
Last edited by SAGirl; 07-29-2016 at 08:25 PM.
Maybe he will show that is still in his arsenal. His NY days are a long time ago.
Count me with raybies. Pop is not likely to change his spots at this late stage. He coached so poorly last season, I am pretty depressed about what to expect this season. I just hope he doesn't make good on his threat to stay until the end of LMA's current contract. If we are lucky, he and Manu will ride off into the sunset together next off season and the new regime will move Tony, so that the Spurs can finally move forward into the future. I am also praying that Dedmon develops so well that Lee becomes a "forgotten man".I have been a staunch advocate of putting more in the shoulders of younger guys who have shown to be above dleague and summer league level. If a guy is not ready and he can benefit from the dleague, by all means dleague is ideal to have a safe environment to make mistakes and correct them without raising Pop's ire, but for guys who had already dominated dleague and summer league more of the same is of little help. Those guys need a real challenge. They need to be thrown into the ocean to swim with sharks bc they have already seen enough of goldfishes. Chinook will love the fish reference
Anyways, I guess raybies already conditioned me to expect the same ol from Pop, so that I am not disappointed this season when we see more of it. As for Dejounte, I am in his camp, but he's very young and it's hard to say how he fits with all this. So long as Tony and Manu have the ball in their hands, he won't develop much and he does have a lot he can work on in the dleague right this second. But it's really hard to say, he can show off in training camp so much potential that Pop incorporates him somehow.
As for Lee, I think the team needed a vet anyways. If Pop brought him in to leave all the youngsters benched, even those who have shown they can play in the NBA then that does the team a disservice... so I am choosing to believe the truth is somewhere in between. I don't think he's guaranteed a super spot, but he for sure won't be Bonner. But if we look at Butler he wasn't Bonner either. He started ahead of the youngsters early in the season and as they improved and surpassed him, he then took a back seat. When one of them regressed, Butler was ready to step back up.
Well. . .replacing Duncan with Pau Gasol and David Lee is interesting and probably as much as we could have realistically gotten. . .so I'm both pleasantly surprised and happy with the outcome.
I was depressed about that too last week. It was preventing me from being happy to have Manu back. The problem is not getting 39 yr old Manu back... the problem is Pop relying on Manu to still be the engine and not developing others and he's now headed that way with Lee too.
Sometimes ppl talk about guys like CJ McCollum and how they broke into the scene all of a sudden. Well aside from a few injuries, the guy was buried behind Wes Mathews and Batum. Even Crabbe wasn't getting playing time of a sufficient magnitude to improve. They also had Will Barton who kind of broke out for Denver. Sometimes guys are ready and just need the coach's trust and playing time. I'd like to see Bertans and Dejounte too. I don't have any problem with Pop picking up vets, the problem is Pop relying on these vets to the detriment and coaching of younger players who have talent.Then we get to the playoffs and these guys are not ready. We get sunk early and fingers are pointed at Kawhi and LMA, maybe someone else this season... not at Pop and all the old TOSB he still lives and dies by. It's not fair to Kawhi IMO.
Edit: but I am choosing to not be this pessimistic and rather think the the reliance on Manu and Lee or whomever will be moderate and that Pop will give opportunities to the younger players.
Pop coached a record breaking season. The starters outplayed the Okc starters series wise, the bench played horrible. There only so much you can do when your second unit is constantly a negative and clearly not a match-up talent wise. It's an uphill battle that doesn't get easier as a series goes on.
Lee I believe is a great pickup. He's a big who can attack the dribble, and rebound. He's a very active player who's annoying habits help as much as anything he does. He's also a compe or. He plays big against good teams. He's very versatile and his defense won't be worse than what we had on a top 5 defense, but he brings more offensive intangibles. Good signing. Look forward to seeing how he's used.
Addition of fathead and Dwest was just bad. That's the only major difference from other years.
If we are lucky? That's gonna suck when Pop/Manu and Parker retire. (Parker is retiring a Spur BTW)
There's no need to go full blown youth movement. We have older guys who can play. How often do young teams win it all anyway? We lost TD, and to lose Pop/Manu/Parker the next season at once would suck. I mean Pop is irreplaceable, its not like Bud is still here who would've been ideal to take over.
If the young guys play well enough, they'll get time. Pop has shown that already.
67 win season is worthless if the team underachieves in my book. Manu's usage went from almost 24% in the RS to about 15% in the playoffs. If he's not going to be able to be the man in the playoffs (and he shouldn't be expected to do that at 39 yrs old), then Pop needs to steer the team a different direction, whatever it may be. If we are going to see more of Manu being the man in the RS, expect an early round exit again. You heard it here first.
Manu is not ideal for some matchups. OKC happened to be one, but he is far from the reason we lost.
Heck the refs screwed us in 2 games, I'm still not sold we should have even lost to OKC. But the bigger problem was Diaw/West and a hobbled Duncan were outmatched by their front court.
Honestly, this post comes out of a place of respect and the questions that I pose are those out of true curiosity.
I realize that this quote is directed at me - and I will admit that I have less than 1% of the knowledge regarding the CBA when compared to you, but I think that you are being completely unfair with some of your assumptions and your choice of lumping in other players' contracts with Lee's to help strengthen your point. Lee will be making ~$1.6M next year (if he opts in) which is around 1.5% of the cap. Lee's contract is the proverbial straw that broke the Spurs' back when it comes to a chance to bring in a marquee free agent next year? I understand that every penny counts and how frugal FOs have to be, but the Spurs have proven multiple times recently that they are willing to trade away/shed contracts to acquire key pieces. Why would that be any different next year just because of David Lee's signing?
His contract numbers have nothing to do with Duncan's, so I don't know why combining them was even brought into the picture. If you're just doing it under the assumption that "he gets hurt, or gives us nothing", couldn't you do that with ANY player with a contract that goes into next year (i.e. If Tony gets hurt or gives us nothing next year, the Spurs will have $17M committed next year for players who aren't helping the team?) I personally believe that there is a much higher chance of him contributing "some" (or seeing an opportunity to prove himself elsewhere) and opting out for a bigger paycheck next year than your scenario of getting injured or falling off of the face of the Earth and opting in, but only time will tell. Not only that, but wouldn't his contract be easy to add to a trade next offseason - even if it was to only make the numbers work?
I also realize that Lee doesn't have the possible upside of a player like Dedmon or Bertans, but if you were going to play out the Chicken Little sky-is-falling routine wouldn't you prefer it on a player with a vet minimum deal (although it is higher than a UDFA min deal) instead of a player like Dedmon (whose player option is nearly double that of Lee) or, God forbid, a player like Gasol?
Again, I admit that my knowledge in regards to these things are limited - but I personally think that this "David Lee is the worst Spurs' signing in the history of the franchise" argument is one of the biggest jokes that I've ever read on this forum.
Welcome!
Agree, way too many doom and gloom fans on here imo. Looking at how GS played, Spurs definitely had a shot against them and they were basically robbed 2 games against OKC and should have been up 3-0. Spurs bigs got murdered against OKC and Spurs addressed it big time. No one could have never known what Tim was gonna do and thats out of anyones control but his but to turn D-worst/fat diaw/boban/bonner into Gasol/Dedmon/Lee/Bertans/LJC is a of an improvement imo.
Honestly, my quote wasn't solely directed at you. You aren't the only person in this thread to make that argument. Anyway, I don't think trying to take percentages of the cap is the appropriate way of looking at this. The cap has never been about numbers in the NBA. It's always been about opportunity cost. That's the reason why someone like Tyson Chandler will not be traded whereas the Hornets were willing to give up a pick to get rid of Lamb or Hawes. There's no universal standard to determine what's a good contract for a team, and that's why all these deals this summer are going to look at lot worse than the "percentage of cap" people are projecting.
The Spurs' ability to use cap space next summer was strongly tied to their ability to get out of this summer without taking on long-term salary commitments. The first major way they missed out on that was by Tim opting in. By choosing to use cap space beyond their means to sign Gasol, they traded Diaw, alienated West and had to let Boban walk. I don't necessarily think that was a bad move, but they also had to stretch Tim in order to give Manu his huge contract. That took them out of realistic shape to offer a max deal without moving yet another rotation player. Thus, the questions about trading for Westbrook or getting Paul to take a discount cropped up. But now they have even more salary commitments, making that nearly impossible. So if Parker continues his decline, it's too bad. There's little enough cap space that Pop may well just re-sign everyone, so good luck on seeing Murray with a clear path to get minutes next year.
That's not a very good example. Parker and most of the returning rotation players are not on option years. Lee, Dedmon and Gasol are. So the upside of their deals is a lot lower than the upside of guys like Parker, Leonard, LMA and Green. Those guys bounce back or step up, they still have their deals locked in. If the new bigs step up, they're potentially gone next year, because the Spurs have no Bird rights or RFA status. Now as I said, they should have the money to re-sign some of them, but that's only if those are the biggest holes the team has to fill. As we have seen for two summers in a row, the Spurs haven't been able to keep everyone they want, even with cap space.His contract numbers have nothing to do with Duncan's, so I don't know why combining them was even brought into the picture. If you're just doing it under the assumption that "he gets hurt, or gives us nothing", couldn't you do that with ANY player with a contract that goes into next year (i.e. If Tony gets hurt or gives us nothing next year, the Spurs will have $17M committed next year for players who aren't helping the team?) I personally believe that there is a much higher chance of him contributing "some" (or seeing an opportunity to prove himself elsewhere) and opting out for a bigger paycheck next year than your scenario of getting injured or falling off of the face of the Earth and opting in, but only time will tell. Not only that, but wouldn't his contract be easy to add to a trade next offseason - even if it was to only make the numbers work?
You haven't read anything else I've posted in this thread, have you? I have no issue with the Lee signing. I don't even have an issue with the player option. I do have issue with the idea that the player option doesn't matter because it's for the min. The Spurs definitely sacrificed some flexibility to bring him in. It can be, and hopefully will end up being, worth it, just as it was with West. But yes, it matters. In fact, it matters to the point that it the option being significantly bigger -- like say $5 Million -- would barely make a difference to the opportunity cost.I also realize that Lee doesn't have the possible upside of a player like Dedmon or Bertans, but if you were going to play out the Chicken Little sky-is-falling routine wouldn't you prefer it on a player with a vet minimum deal (although it is higher than a UDFA min deal) instead of a player like Dedmon (whose player option is nearly double that of Lee) or, God forbid, a player like Gasol?
Of course it's stupid. As far as I know, only one poster has even proposed that argument, and it wasn't me.Again, I admit that my knowledge in regards to these things are limited - but I personally think that this "David Lee is the worst Spurs' signing in the history of the franchise" argument is one of the biggest jokes that I've ever read on this forum.
I think pop will be here for the foreseeable future. He has commitments with team USA and while i doubt he stays longer than four years that lines up with Tony's timeline. I think we have four years left with Pop and he'll retire all at once but remain in the front office for a few years. As for the coaching, it has become frustrating but at least he's been consistent. He sticks to his guns and morals which can be applauded. It's definitely old school. Some coaches I would love to have would be Jay Wright and Shaka Smart. Entire Messina is meh. If coach bud was available you do that. No one knows spurs ball and culture like him. But yeah Pop has shown amazing sometimes unbearably loyalty to the big three. I have to hope Parker and Ginobili play at a high level this year cause it could get ugly. Pop loves to reward players that have paid their dues and TP and Manu have done so in spades. This is where my belief comes that he'll ride them out wins or losses. Look at the Clippers series. Parker should have sat. And against OKC this year we lost a crucial game cause Parker wanted to play hero at the end when it was clearly Leonard's or LMA's responsibility. And you know pop wouldn't tell him know his role. He wants Tony to be aggressive cause imo if he's not he knows he's unplayable. Hopefully Pau and Tony have great chemistry cause as a fandom we have to continue to hope that Tony can stave off his regression or even have a bounce back year. It only increases or odds.
OmG truth Bomb!!!
one can only hope. Tony should have sat against Clippers that's is so right!!! This is where I get on Pop for not playing his younger guys. Look at Cojo!!! Got to the ECF and he was huge for Raptors moving on from their Choketor ways!!! OmG he was so underutilized in Spurs his last season here. POP instead moving on with Mills and Marco too who with all their shooting were also giving up layups to Austin Rivers.
Some still say if Tony doesn't get injured in game 6 against OKC in 2014 and Cojo subs for him the s second half we don't make a come back and ultimately win that game. POP even gave props to Tony for his terrible first half that he did play bc he was injured. He shouldn't have played in that state. And I am not a Tony hater. But it's true, the ironic troll thread is true, if Tony is not aggressive looking to score, what does he do? Ugh. If I was a strict Kiwi fan it would make me crazy which is why those guys are angry at Pop too (Apalisoc at least, more ignorant guys just hate on Tony).
You hit the nail on the head. I am optimistic about the season but I was honest and said I would be less so if Pop is not developing the younger guys after making such a fuss about the team needing to get younger and address deficiencies in the bench. Adding Tony on to that just complicates it more. Ppl will say we won't ring again without TD, but we have to pay more attention to Pop right now and his schemes.
Well said.
Spurs and GSW had a lot of problems against GSW. However, I just don't think that Pop made enough adjustments.
Looking at the current team roster and assuming no decline in our players. The is at least as good as last years team and should be able to reach the WCF. All you need is a shot and the Spurs have at least have a shot.
I like this signing because we really need an additional vet in the frontline. Spurs with Duncan have alway been able to get away with being smarter and craftier than the bigs of the other team. Pau, Aldridge and Lee all have been all-star players so they know what it takes.
It's the compe ion thing. Something that fat, lazy west was supposed to bring. He didn't. West bothered me because he's a fake tough type. Lee isn't a talker, but he will attack the boards and make others pay attention when a shot goes up. Huge upgrade over the West and Boris spurs had last year.
I'm just curious, when has Pop and the Spurs coaching staff not helped with the development of the younger guys? We only see what goes down on the court, not behind the scenes. But even a guy like Kawhi, who granted was a higher draft pick started out on the bench. But he worked his ass off, addressing many of the initial concerns people had of him.
If you work hard, and play within the system, you'll get time.
Exactly. I think ultimately GS vs OKC was more appealing to the league, its a business after all .
We addressed our biggest issue against them. And as it turns out, we don't have to prepare for them with Durant gone lol. But it gives up more lineup flexibility
Once this season is played out I will answer. I will watch him this season. Pop took a long ass time to feature Kawhi too. He was ready at least a season before he started to get plays called for him, and this is once Pop had given him all the praise in the world and had said he was the future. It took Tony literally physically breaking down in the middle of playoff series for Pop to ask Kawhi to be aggressive. I don't think Pop is as perfect as you make him seem. He has had Tim a transcendental HoF level talent most of his own career to bail him out. Even he has said he owes his career to Tim.
There are reports that Tim and Pop quarrelled and went through stages within the course of a season that they wanted to "divorce". They always made up because they appreciated each other so much, but it's not like Pop is right in everything. I remember seeing an interview two seasons ago where the media was asking Kawhi why he wasn't averaging more PPG in comparison to elite talent and questioned whether he was at that level (or something of that nature) and he said that he didn't play enough minutes. That if he was playing 5 or 6 more minutes like those other guys in the league, he would average a higher number of PPG, RB etc. I could detect that Kawhi was annoyed by the question. He didn't throw sand on anybody's eye, but it wasn't on him really.
And there are guys that need the ball in the team, which requires taking it out from his beloved. The most recent is Dejounte. In the bench there is at least Kyle. Kawhi took a long time to get plays for himself. Lamarcus was in deferential mode for half a season and didn't step it up until Tim got injured. Pop has had the luxury of having a lot of vets to go to. Didn't the man want Jason Kidd to "mentor" Tony? In reality that would have stunted Tony's growth, taken the ball out of his hands when he was young and possibly pushed him out in FA, or so I read in an article.
But like I said, I will watch Pop this season and then tell you. If it's more of the same ol, we will have an early exit from the playoffs, ppl will cut Pop slack, blame a player here or there and move on.
I like Smart well enough and Jay Wright, too. My dream scenario is for Bud to return. I even wonder about Becky... Anyway, you are right that we must hope Tony has a rebound season. But I am placing my hopes on Dijon's developing much faster than anybody (including Pop) can imagine and simply forcing his way into some big minutes. I also hope Bertans becomes a mobile sharpshooter who can provide some serious firepower in case Danny or Patty sputters again. But I am hoping and praying that by some miracle Dedmon blossoms into our Hassan Whiteside. Aldridge, Gasol, Lee and Anderson do not have the mix of skills on offense or defense that we need. And age and injury are both potential issues that make me cross my fingers for our front court rotation. I believe Dedmon adds the missing ingredient of athleticism that is essential to our success this season. He is my X-factor. I believe he has to come through for the Spurs to be more than fool's gold.
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