ACA premiums up as much as 50% as 2016 renewals hit...

[ElNono]

I never said I didn't. I provided the link to TB's comment that the VA was "damn good" at negotiating drug prices which is true but there is a reason why. If you think that medicare can simply copy the VA model and achieve the same results then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I also don't agree with your argument that if medicare did implement price controls then drug manufacturers would simply have no other options to make up the lost revenue.

well, I suppose they can always "lobby" (wink, wink) politicos for a sweeter deal. I mean, the US is basically the last place on earth where they can actually charge whatever they want. They're not stupid, and it's a business after all. When a country like India threatened to simply ignore their patents and produce generic versions of their prized meds, they sat down, and licensed the drug so at least they would get a cut, even if the drug would sell at 1% of the original price they had in mind.

It's certainly debatable whether the US should prioritize the health of their citizens over the profit motive of certain companies. I think that's where the debate needs to be, or if there's some middle-ground somewhere there.

[SnakeBoy]

well, I suppose they can always "lobby" (wink, wink) politicos for a sweeter deal. I mean, the US is basically the last place on earth where they can actually charge whatever they want. They're not stupid, and it's a business after all. When a country like India threatened to simply ignore their patents and produce generic versions of their prized meds, they sat down, and licensed the drug so at least they would get a cut, even if the drug would sell at 1% of the original price they had in mind.

It's certainly debatable whether the US should prioritize the health of their citizens over the profit motive of certain companies. I think that's where the debate needs to be, or if there's some middle-ground somewhere there.

Like I said, I'm not against all price controls. Something needs to be done to prevent the type of price gouging you see in cases like the epipen for example where the company ends up with a monopoly and decides to make an inexpensive product a cash cow because of it. Or like that Shkreli did when he obtain the rights to a life saving drug and then tried to use that single drug to fund his entire startup.

At the same time I don't think it is as simple as you seem to believe. Take away the most profitable market for drugs and publicly traded pharmaceutical companies will just say "ok fine we never really needed these profits" and there won't be any negative consequences just doesn't seem believable to me.

Same way I don't think single payer is the panacea so many seem to think it is without any details of how it would actually work in this country. That doesn't mean I think our system isn't ed up but I don't see the problem as "We don't have a single payer model" or "We don't have a nationalized model" or "We don't have a mixed model". I see the problem as we don't have a model, just a hodge podge collection of reactionary ideas put on top of each other every 4-8 years.

[boutons_deux]

"I don't think single payer is the panacea"

no worry, medicare-for-all will never happen in USA. BigHealthCare will always block it.

[ElNono]

Like I said, I'm not against all price controls. Something needs to be done to prevent the type of price gouging you see in cases like the epipen for example where the company ends up with a monopoly and decides to make an inexpensive product a cash cow because of it. Or like that Shkreli did when he obtain the rights to a life saving drug and then tried to use that single drug to fund his entire startup.

At the same time I don't think it is as simple as you seem to believe. Take away the most profitable market for drugs and publicly traded pharmaceutical companies will just say "ok fine we never really needed these profits" and there won't be any negative consequences just doesn't seem believable to me.

Same way I don't think single payer is the panacea so many seem to think it is without any details of how it would actually work in this country. That doesn't mean I think our system isn't ed up but I don't see the problem as "We don't have a single payer model" or "We don't have a nationalized model" or "We don't have a mixed model". I see the problem as we don't have a model, just a hodge podge collection of reactionary ideas put on top of each other every 4-8 years.

I don't know if they "needed" those profits, but we certainly know they spend about half of that in marketing alone, which makes it hard for me that have much sympathy for them. The R&D is more tilted towards what sells instead of what might be needed. They're businesses, they have every right to do all that, though.

But I rather have this conversation, about what role, if any, the state (which does have a compelling interest towards it's citizens) should have about reining in costs, and in which ways, than keep insisting with magical stuff like HSAs, etc, which don't really tackle the actual problem (pricing). Maybe the solution is not price-fixing, maybe it's severely limiting the availability or duration of patents for certain pharmaceutical products. Maybe it's allowing imports of medication, and then we get an across-the-board price alignment, instead of the US citizen subsidizing the world.

There's many ways to skin a cat, but I feel sometimes we reduce the argument to silly stuff and we lose sight of what the actual dilemma really is.

[Th'Pusher]

At the same time I don't think it is as simple as you seem to believe. Take away the most profitable market for drugs and publicly traded pharmaceutical companies will just say "ok fine we never really needed these profits" and there won't be any negative consequences just doesn't seem believable to me.

Well you're right in that they will attempt to replace those revenue streams or reduce costs to maintain their bottom line. The question is how? Scale back R&D? Scale back their marketing campaigns? What are the effects of these?

[boutons_deux]

"Scale back R&D? Scale back their marketing campaigns?"

years ago, I read that BigPharma spent $30B on R&D, and $30B on marketing. probably no different now, maybe even worse.

It has been shown that BigPharma/BigDevice "marketing" corrupts 1000 of docs.

Some countries block all marketing to consumers, and still provide drugs as needed.

And of course, BigPharma's "testing" is hidden, where good results are published, hyped, and bad results are hidden.

So many death and injuries from BigPharma's poison that BigPharma has paid many $10Bs to victims and govt (and still have one of the highest profit margins of any Fortune 500 sector).

[ElNono]

Also, I don't know if single-payer is a panacea... it just needs to be better than what we have. I'm actually in favor of a mixed system, where you do get baseline care from single-payor, and if you can afford and want more of a concierge type of service from a private en y, you can certainly pay for that. I feel removing a bunch of intermediaries in the US system would go a long ways to reducing cost also.

[TeyshaBlue]

Also, I don't know if single-payer is a panacea... it just needs to be better than what we have. I'm actually in favor of a mixed system, where you do get baseline care from single-payor, and if you can afford and want more of a concierge type of service from a private en y, you can certainly pay for that. I feel removing a bunch of intermediaries in the US system would go a long ways to reducing cost also.

This is the approach I've always favored. However, you set the stage for Elysium in the next century.

[boutons_deux]

PHARMA CEO GAVE HERSELF AN $18 MILLION RAISE AFTER HIKING EPIPEN PRICES

Bresch went from making $2.453,456 in 2007 to$18,931,068 in 2015, amounting to a 671 percent raise over eight years.

But Bresch wasn’t alone in the windfall resulting from the rising price of the EpiPen. Mylan’s president, Rajiv Malik, saw his base pay increase by 11 percent to $1 million annually as of 2015,

while Mylan Chief Commercial Officer Anthony Mauro got a 13.6 percent raise, amounting to $625,000 per year.

http://usuncut.com/class-war/pharma-ceo-epipen/

yep, ACA FORCES BigPharma to pay its execs and investors extremely well.

[Chucho]

I can't believe people question if the Government can regulate big pharma and actually do something to help people with actual healthcare...of course they can. They flat out don't want to because big pharma has big lobbyists in DC spreading around that sweet, sweet bribe cash.

[boutons_deux]

I can't believe people question if the Government can regulate big pharma and actually do something to help people with actual healthcare...of course they can. They flat out don't want to because big pharma has big lobbyists in DC spreading around that sweet, sweet bribe cash.

That's why it's hilarious to see "serious people" think that Trash's glorious crash and burn in November will cause the GOP to disappear or even reform.

GOP's strategy is, has been to sucker voters with social issues, while fully implementing/defending/extending (laws, policies, regs, obstruction) the corporatocracy that their big donors pay them for.

The corporatocracy will be untouched by Trash's electoral disaster (and BigFinance's /establishment Hillary won't do anything serious about corporatocracy, either)

btw, unwinnable wars are unending profits for BigCorp. Military people don't "serve", they are "used" as cannon fodder, for profit.

[Chucho]

GOP's strategy is, has been to sucker voters with social issues, while fully implementing/defending/extending (laws, policies, regs, obstruction) the corporatocracy that their big donors pay them for.

Wait, it's the Right that is pushing and fostering the racial divide? Pushing agendas that pander to the extreme, extreme minorites such as transgender-.003% of the population and pushing an absurd $15 dollar minimum wage that 90% of the companies that employ 95% of the workforce simply can't afford after payroll and FICA taxes?

I didn't know it was the Right that was continuing wars while ruining entire nations, nor did I know that it was the Right that made Obama's Administration the largest foreign arms dealer in history.

I didn't know that it was the Right that voted to bail out the big banks instead of letting them burn to the ground, like the other Scandinavian countries did. The SAME Scandinavian countries that socialist-Leftists admire so much and claim a country of 350 million people can have the same benefits as a country of 5-10 million people.

I didn't know ANY of that.

[Warlord23]

Wait, it's the Right that is pushing and fostering the racial divide? Pushing agendas that pander to the extreme, extreme minorites such as transgender-.003% of the population and pushing an absurd $15 dollar minimum wage that 90% of the companies that employ 95% of the workforce simply can't afford after payroll and FICA taxes?

I didn't know it was the Right that was continuing wars while ruining entire nations, nor did I know that it was the Right that made Obama's Administration the largest foreign arms dealer in history.

I didn't know that it was the Right that voted to bail out the big banks instead of letting them burn to the ground, like the other Scandinavian countries did. The SAME Scandinavian countries that socialist-Leftists admire so much and claim a country of 350 million people can have the same benefits as a country of 5-10 million people.

I didn't know ANY of that.

Social issues have always been used by both parties to rev up their base. However, the GOP is way more cynical at using them. You said it yourself: why should the Democrats talk about transgender bathrooms for 0.03% of the population? It doesn't win them a single new vote - they could just stay a little more moderate than the GOP and scoop up that tiny minority. The GOP's history on this is much longer: Nixon's Southern Strategy and drug war, Reagan's "states rights" speech in Mississippi, A er's Willie Horton attacks, Rove planting stories about McCain's illegitimate black child, making the 2004 election about gay marriage bans, questioning Obama's religion/birthplace - all these were deliberate attempts to get social conservatives to look beyond the GOP's economic and foreign policy record.

Yes, both parties are equally in the pockets of the banks and arms manufacturers. That's a feature, not a bug, of money in politics. Neither side comes out looking good in that conversation.

[baseline bum]

Wait, it's the Right that is pushing and fostering the racial divide? Pushing agendas that pander to the extreme, extreme minorites such as transgender-.003% of the population and pushing an absurd $15 dollar minimum wage that 90% of the companies that employ 95% of the workforce simply can't afford after payroll and FICA taxes?

I didn't know it was the Right that was continuing wars while ruining entire nations, nor did I know that it was the Right that made Obama's Administration the largest foreign arms dealer in history.

I didn't know that it was the Right that voted to bail out the big banks instead of letting them burn to the ground, like the other Scandinavian countries did. The SAME Scandinavian countries that socialist-Leftists admire so much and claim a country of 350 million people can have the same benefits as a country of 5-10 million people.

I didn't know ANY of that.

You didn't know it was Bush who bailed out the banks and invaded Iraq?

[boutons_deux]

Wait, it's the Right that is pushing and fostering the racial divide? Pushing agendas that pander to the extreme, extreme minorites such as transgender-.003% of the population and pushing an absurd $15 dollar minimum wage that 90% of the companies that employ 95% of the workforce simply can't afford after payroll and FICA taxes?

I didn't know it was the Right that was continuing wars while ruining entire nations, nor did I know that it was the Right that made Obama's Administration the largest foreign arms dealer in history.

I didn't know that it was the Right that voted to bail out the big banks instead of letting them burn to the ground, like the other Scandinavian countries did. The SAME Scandinavian countries that socialist-Leftists admire so much and claim a country of 350 million people can have the same benefits as a country of 5-10 million people.

I didn't know ANY of that.

because you're a garden-variety stupid, ignorant, confused rightwingnut off

[Chucho]

because you're a garden-variety stupid, ignorant, confused rightwingnut off

LOL, said the by-product of the best propaganda this side of Joe Goerbels. Don't take your aggressions out on me, pal. You're part of a racist, oppressive party that is every bit as awful as history has shown you ancestors of Slave owners to be. Good for you, you can insult people. You're a garden-variety, stupid, ignorant, confused, easily mislead, Oppressive Left off with no handle of decency.

[Chucho]

You didn't know it was Bush who bailed out the banks and invaded Iraq?

But it was Obama who handed them the check. And it's Obama who hasn't reinvested or reimbursed the tax payers one penny of that $64 billion they made in interest off that. But Obama's has racked up a personal spending account of $44 million? Not saying their is a correlation, just saying there is ery going on on the Left that the LOLeftists refuse to acknowledge.

[baseline bum]

But it was Obama who handed them the check. And it's Obama who hasn't reinvested or reimbursed the tax payers one penny of that $64 billion they made in interest off that. But Obama's has racked up a personal spending account of $44 million? Not saying their is a correlation, just saying there is ery going on on the Left that the LOLeftists refuse to acknowledge.

LOL Republicans running away from the bailout their boy Paulson engineered and Bush signed.

[boutons_deux]

LOL Republicans running away from the bailout their boy Paulson engineered and Bush signed.

Even when Barry implemented it, they disowned it, saying it was all Barry's deal (so they could lie to their suckered base that they were anti-BigFinance)

[ElNono]

You didn't know it was Bush who bailed out the banks and invaded Iraq?

exactly what I was thinking when I read that

Still waiting for Medicare part D being an invention of Barrycare...

[boutons_deux]

exactly what I was thinking when I read that

Still waiting for Medicare part D being an invention of Barrycare...

Then there's the Repugs denying bankruptcy to student borrowers whose debt can carry on after death to other family members.

Then there's Medicare Advantage that costs taxpayers 12% more than Medicare, right into bank accounts of BigInsurance.

Repugs Americans every which way they can at every possible chance.

[boutons_deux]

so Mylan cuts murderous price hike in half, what a big heart

Mylan to Offer a Generic EpiPen at Half the Price

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/30/business/mylan-to-offer-a-generic-epipen-at-half-the-price.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Cost of materials? a couple bucks.

Cost of paying investors and Mylan mgmt? $100Ms

For-profit health care, the worst disease afflicting Americans.

[boutons_deux]

"The adult EpiPen has 0.3mg of epinephrine.

The cost of 1.0mg of epinephrine is around $2 dollars retail."

https://medium.com/@zachshallbetter/life-and-death-by-the-epipen-9af31ad6f9d7#.wj4vtk9qh

[Winehole23]

Aetna awash in profits:

https://www.healthinsurance.org/blog...a-river-aetna/

[pgardn]

No sarcasm intended.
Could someone help me make sense of this:

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/09...-cut-medicaid/