Bucks: Tim Duncan is the third best player of all time..

[Thread]

da has SF snortin' all over again.

tee, hee.

[DPG21920]

^ You are so so disingenuous it's hilarious.

[djohn2oo8]

this clown nitpicking the ONE mention I made of a team accomplishment(missing the playoffs)..your team logic is stupid, as well, since Duncan was well past his prime in 2011..

Duncan's individual advanced numbers are superior to Hakeem's, as I posted earlier..their 2-year peaks are similar, but Duncan's full prime was sustained longer, as the numbers will show.. counting stats in 2016..

Hakeem's absolute peak that everybody loves to cite:
1994 playoffs: 27.7 PER(#2), Win Shares 4.3(#1), Box Plus Minus 9.1(#1), Value Over Replacement Player 2.8(#1)

Duncan's absolute peak:
2003 playoffs: 28.4 PER(#2), Win Shares 5.9(#1), Box Plus Minus 11.6(#1), Value Over Replacement Player 3.5(#1)

Duncan's 2003 playoff run is matched by very few, tbh..similar peak, but Duncan has him destroyed in longevity..

Duncan played less minutes starting at the age of 28. Of course that helped his longevity. Duncan didn't have to carry his team as much as he did when Prime Manu and Parker came onto the scene.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Duncan played less minutes starting at the age of 28. Of course that helped his longevity. Duncan didn't have to carry his team as much as he did when Prime Manu and Parker came onto the scene.

didnt have to play big minutes cause the game was over, first to 80pts wins

90s bball = first to 100pts win

[spurraider21]

Lets not forget the league INVENTED A RULE to stop teams from Hack-a-Shaq-ing in the final two minutes.

yes excellent point. the league needed a rule to cover up shaq's biggest weakness and artificially increase his effectiveness

[spurraider21]

Hakeem's career high for defensive win shares in a season was 8.7, Tim's was 7.2...And their Drating's are nearly identical with Hakeem playing less games than Duncan.

d-rating isn't affected by how many games you've played. its a per possession type stat

[DPG21920]

Duncan played less minutes starting at the age of 28. Of course that helped his longevity. Duncan didn't have to carry his team as much as he did when Prime Manu and Parker came onto the scene.

What? You understand using that logic then dictates that Dreams numbers were inflated. If Tim played less minutes he had less time to inflate numbers.

[da_suns_fan]

Tbh when comparing stats between players who played similar minutes/similar roles it's best to use per-100 possession stats if you want to look at statistical dominance. That's when Duncan's number really start to pop, because the Spurs were always the bottom 5 in pace throughout Duncan's first 10-12 years.

Per 100 possessions, Duncan's scoring was actually very similar to Hakeem's, given Hakeem's Rockets, like most teams in the late 80's and early 90's played at higher paces, which lead to slightly inflated stats.

Career points per 100 possessions
Hakeem - 30.3 (career high = 35.8)
Duncan - 29.7 (career high = 33.5)
Shaq - 35.2 (career high 40.1 )

It really was unfair how unstoppable he was. What that number doesnt show is how many defenders he drew every time he touched the ball. How he got your team in foul trouble early in every quarter. How your teams guards thought twice about driving to the basket because they were afraid of getting physically hurt. King ing Kong is standing under the basket.

If you had to pick any player in their respective primes for a playoff series, wouldnt you have to at least CONSIDER taking prime Shaq over prime Jordan? Sure Jordan is greatest of all time, but if you have prime 2000/2001 Shaq on your team youre going to have such a huge advantage. The other team is basically ed.

The 2001 Lakers had prime Shaq, a 23 year old Kobe and a bunch of role players and they lost ONE GAME in the playoffs (including curb-stomping Tim Duncan and the Spurs who had HCA).

Tim Duncan?

Please.

[da_suns_fan]

Regarding the point about best defensive dynasty, Duncan did have damn good defenders around him.

Yes, and Spurs fans act like they had Deion Sanders on their team. As if Tim Duncan took something away from you offensively because he was such a defensive presence.

Amare Stoudemire average 37 ppg in a playoff series against Duncan running the same stupid pick and roll over and over.

Dont get me wrong, he was a good defender. But acting as if he's on par with Shaq because of his defensive skill is ridiculous.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan ranks #6 in career win shares (above all PF except Karl Malone, above Shaq and Hakeem). 13th in ws/48 (Above Hakeem, Malone), 13th in PER(Above malone and Hakeem), 17th in rebounding % (above everyone you listed), #12 in BPM (Above everyone you listed), #7 in DBPM (Above everyone you listed), and #6 in VORP (Above Hakeem, Shaq).

He won b2b MVPs during Shaq's prime.
He won 3 FMVPs
He had comparable or higher per 100 possession stats than Hakeem and Shaq in their primes
He outscored, outrebounded and outblocked Shaq in their h2h

Chang loves advanced stats with Duncan but even here its easy to prove Shaq was better (because he WAS). Lets look at who had the highest peak numbers:

Peak Vorp Winner: Shaq (9.4)
Peak BPM Winner: Shaq (9.7)
Peak Win Shares/48 Winner: Shaq (.283)
Peak Win Shares Winner: Shaq (18.6)
Peak PER Winner: Shaq (30.6)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...onealsh01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...duncati01.html

Shaq had higher peak advanced stats in every single category.

Bummer Chang.

[da_suns_fan]

da has SF snortin' all over again.

tee, hee.

The thing is I dont even think they REALLY believe Duncan was better (I mean...seriously). They just WANT to believe he was because it makes them feel better about themselves.

[Thread]

^ You are so so disingenuous it's hilarious.

You have to be to get passed the guard at the door.

[djohn2oo8]

What? You understand using that logic then dictates that Dreams numbers were inflated. If Tim played less minutes he had less time to inflate numbers.

Except it isn't about numbers, it's about staying healthy. Duncan had the chance to play less minutes since he was 28, which prolonged his career. Manu and Parker also helped prolong his career. So when someone says longevity, his body may have broken down sooner had he played heavier minutes like Hakeem did and playing without Manu and Parker.

[TD 21]

Except it isn't about numbers, it's about staying healthy. Duncan had the chance to play less minutes since he was 28, which prolonged his career. Manu and Parker also helped prolong his career. So when someone says longevity, his body may have broken down sooner had he played heavier minutes like Hakeem did and playing without Manu and Parker.

That's speculative though. What's fact, is that Duncan trumps Olajuwon in terms of longevity.

Also, it's not all about offense. Duncan went 12 consecutive seasons playing without another surefire starting big, between Robinson and Aldridge. Splitter was the closest thing to one.

Between Bowen and Leonard, Splitter and Green, he almost single handedly kept them a fringe top 10 defense and after Robinson, almost single handedly kept them an elite defensive rebounding team.

He may have played less regular season minutes than Olajuwon in the back half of their careers, but he played more playoff minutes.

[djohn2oo8]

That's speculative though. What's fact, is that Duncan trumps Olajuwon in terms of longevity.

Also, it's not all about offense. Duncan went 12 consecutive seasons playing without another surefire starting big, between Robinson and Aldridge. Splitter was the closest thing to one.

Between Bowen and Leonard, Splitter and Green, he almost single handedly kept them a fringe top 10 defense and after Robinson, almost single handedly kept them an elite defensive rebounding team.

He may have played less regular season minutes than Olajuwon in the back half of their careers, but he played more playoff minutes.

Less regular season minutes meant Duncan could be fresher in the playoffs. At ages 31 and 32, Dream's best seasons, he played 41 and 39.6 MPG in the regular season, and 43 and 42 MPG in the playoffs in those seasons. In the back half of their careers, Hakeem played 3793 minutes in the playoffs from age 31 to retirement in 83 playoff games, Duncan with 3833 in 113 po games. So, in the back half of their careers, Duncan played 40 more minutes in the playoffs than Dream. Which means, Duncan didn't play a high amount of minutes in the playoffs either once he got into his 30's, while Hakeem was playing 40 MPG until he was 34.

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan played less minutes starting at the age of 28. Of course that helped his longevity. Duncan didn't have to carry his team as much as he did when Prime Manu and Parker came onto the scene.

That's true, but then we're getting into hypothetical and simulated scenarios(similar to questioning how many rings a player would have with a different supporting cast, etc)..

[TD 21]

Less regular season minutes meant Duncan could be fresher in the playoffs. At ages 31 and 32, Dream's best seasons, he played 41 and 39.6 MPG in the regular season, and 43 and 42 MPG in the playoffs in those seasons. In the back half of their careers, Hakeem played 3793 minutes in the playoffs from age 31 to retirement in 83 playoff games, Duncan with 3833 in 113 po games. So, in the back half of their careers, Duncan played 40 more minutes in the playoffs than Dream. Which means, Duncan didn't play a high amount of minutes in the playoffs either once he got into his 30's, while Hakeem was playing 40 MPG until he was 34.

30 extra playoff games means 30 extra times they needed him to perform at a high level, even if the overall minutes are close. So many players have said a playoff game feels like 2 regular season ones.

Again, Duncan supposedly breaking down sooner is speculative. Either way, Olajuwon looses on both peak and longevity.

[djohn2oo8]

30 extra playoff games means 30 extra times they needed him to perform at a high level, even if the overall minutes are close. So many players have said a playoff game feels like 2 regular season ones.

Again, Duncan supposedly breaking down sooner is speculative. Either way, Olajuwon looses on both peak and longevity.

Doesn't lose on peak. Doing what he did at 31 and 32, is pretty much almost unmatched.

[TD 21]

Doesn't lose on peak. Doing what he did at 31 and 32, is pretty much almost unmatched.

Does lose on peak and when the peak occurred is irrelevant.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

[Arcadian]

Shaq was so dominant he didnt need to shoot from anywhere else.

Yeah yeah, that's the typical line, but it's disingenuous because he really wasn't capable of doing anything else. You can argue that he didn't need a jumpshot or handles, and that's fine. But it means he was less skilled at basketball, and that's a fact.

Anybody can learn to play like Tim Duncan and benefit from it, regardless of physical stature. (There are a few exceptions to this, like not everybody can make a right hand leaner over their right shoulder with a defender in their face, because you need to be 6'11 with a ridiculous wingspan to pull that off.) But nobody can learn to play like Shaq without being a gigantic human being. His game was completely dependent on his physical features. He didn't need to learn many skills, but he was less skilled. You can't avoid that conclusion.

[djohn2oo8]

Does lose on peak and when the peak occurred is irrelevant.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY all in the same year, advanced stats won't tell you that. Peak goes to Hakeem.

[Spurtacular]

No way Hakeem is 5. Don't get me wrong, hes pretty underrated...In large part because of who he prays to...but hes not top 5, imo.

Always bringin' in this goty stuff into the convo.

[HarlemHeat37]

How does Abdul-Jabbar not make your top 10? I know he played in the 70s, but so did Malone, though more of his prime was in the 80s.


Duncan is in the top four, along with Jordan, James and Abdul-Jabbar.

My list was a joke, I was just taking a shot at Larry Bird and his cult

I stay away from rankng players, overall, tbh..too many factors to consider, too many different eras, etc..

If I had to rank them, I would have to split it in several different categories..

If I take the impact of pre-80s players seriously(which I don't), I would divide it by peak and overall career..

Career:
1. Dad Killer
2. Lebron
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic
5. Jabbar
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe

Peak:
1. Lebron
2. Dad Killer
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Kareem

Regular Season Peak:
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Lebron
4. Dad Killer
5. Curry
6. David Robinson
7. Shaq
8. KG

[TD 21]

MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY all in the same year, advanced stats won't tell you that. Peak goes to Hakeem.

What's next, points per game?

Who knows how many DPOY Duncan would have, if defensive metrics were around in his prime and it wasn't based off of who averaged the most blocks per game and looking the part of an intimidating defender.

You'll inevitably use speculative against me, but thinking a silly award is a greater measure than advanced metrics.

My list was a joke, I was just taking a shot at Larry Bird and his cult

I don't rank players, overall, tbh..too many factors to consider, too many different eras, etc..

If I had to rank them, I would have to split it in several different categories..

If I take the impact of pre-80s players seriously(which I don't), I would divide it by peak and overall career..

Career:
1. Dad Killer
2. Lebron
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic
5. Jabbar
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe

Peak:
1. Lebron
2. Dad Killer
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Kareem

Yeah, I don't know how to put Chamberlain into context, but I see no argument for him having a better career than Abdul-Jabbar or Duncan.

[djohn2oo8]

What's next, points per game?

Who knows how many DPOY Duncan would have, if defensive metrics were around in his prime and it wasn't based off of who averaged the most blocks per game and looking the part of an intimidating defender.

You'll inevitably use speculative against me, but thinking a silly award is a greater measure than advanced metrics.

.

Still a hard feat, as is beating 4 50 win teams on the way to a ring without homecourt. Again, advanced stats won't show that. Peak Dream was just better.