The misconception about David Lee's defense

[SpursFan86]

people really underrating how good West was last year. There are at least three metrics (P.E.R, Win Shares per 48 and Net Rtg) that say that he was the third best rotation player on the Spurs last year.

It's legitimately amusing at this point. Looking at the rotation guys (Kawhi/LMA/Green/Parker/Duncan/Mills/West/Diaw/Anderson/Ginobili), here's where West ranked last year:

PER: 4th
WS/48: 3rd
BPM: 4th
VORP: 5th
RPM: 5th

Keep in mind, he was on a vet minimum contract and playing less than 20 mpg. It's not like he was getting paid 8 figures and running the team into the ground playing 30+ minutes a night. West was our 4th big. How much better do people expect out of a 4th big playing for the minimum? Look at the 4th bigs on teams around the league and try telling me West isn't far better than the vast majority of them.

The hate for West on here is seriously one of the most perplexing things I've seen in my 3+ years of visiting this forum. Yeah, he was awful in the OKC series. But 1) so was pretty much the entire team, 2) blame Popovich for insisting on playing West/Diaw against Kanter/Adams, and 3) having a bad series against a bad matchup doesn't mean he wasn't a solid player all season long.

I mean seriously, it seems like West is the 2nd most hated on player of last year's Spurs team outside of Parker I would've loved to have West back for the vet minimum again this year. West/Dedmon is a 10x better pairing than West/Diaw. Dedmon would allow West to actually play PF and not be thrown into an undersized center role.

[sexinthatsx]

DWest was primarily a scorer than a rebounder and a hustle guy. David Lee seems more like a hustle guy to me, and has a history of being a way better rebounder than David West.

Additionally, David Lee knows he needs to work hard to compete and stay in the NBA since nobody even sniffed him during free agency. David West on the other hand still thinks he's worth his weight in gold because he decided to take a pay cut and doing the team a favor by signing for the minimum. Some people take signing for less money as humility, but the fact remains that it doesn't matter how much money you sign for, it's the personality and David West didn't get over himself, even after the pay cut.

[dabom]

People expecting Lee to be good on defense or even better than West was last year in the regular season will be disappointed.

I don't think anyone cares about the RS tbfh.

[Kawhitstorm]

I mean seriously, it seems like West is the 2nd most hated on player of last year's Spurs team outside of Parker I would've loved to have West back for the vet minimum again this year. West/Dedmon is a 10x better pairing than West/Diaw. Dedmon would allow West to actually play PF and not be thrown into an undersized center role.

West was an overkill like Boban, he was a net negative against the two western conference contenders (Duds/OKC) but feasted on backups during the regular season which helped him pad his advanced metric. He was redundant w/ Diaw/LMA so when there was a bad matchup for either one, playing him was adding gasoline to fire.

Lee at least can roll to the rim which adds a new dimension to the offense & will provide Manu a dance partner.

West/Dedmon is a 10x better pairing than West/Diaw. Dedmon would allow West to actually play PF and not be thrown into an undersized center role.

Scola outplayed him during his last season w/ the Pacers even when he was playing w/ Hibbert. He was horrible playing PF when he started against the Duds which was why he basically got a DNP for the 2nd matchup.

[Kawhitstorm]

I don't think anyone cares about the RS tbfh.

IKR, Bonner was pretty solid during the '08-'09 regular season.

[dabom]

IKR, Bonner was pretty solid during the '08-'09 regular season.

ing plebs always talking about the RS. I remember the Spurs were called Paper Warriors before winning it in 2014 because no one gives a about the RS tbfh.

[SAGirl]

West ended up being the second best big after all and that was not an ideal situation for the team. Tim's knee gave out and his inefficiency on open layups right at the basket got him benched in the playoffs, and Diaw wasn't stretching any floor as others pointed out above.

He's indeed much maligned (and I am not a fan TBH), but at this point, he's gone. It's good riddance. He's now a nemesis, so I don't feel sympathy for the man.

I am however not eating the cheetos on Lee, just bc he was picked up by the Spurs. The team will be much better off if Dedmon pans out, let's just put it that way. But Lee is nice to have just in case. Just in case Dedmon doesn't, just in case there are injuries, just in case Bertans in his rookie season is struggling as a bench 4, just in case Pop wants Anderson playing in the perimeter, because Simmons turns out to be unplayable. Bottom line Lee is a contingency plan to me and that is fine.

It's fine to have him as he's a veteran and good insurance in case someone else doesn't pull through, but let's not act like his fit with Dedmon is seamless or like he's some all world defender because he's not. There is a reason he's been picked up for the veteran minimum, same as K.Martin, same as even D.West was. He's on the downturn of his career. He's been injured, he's been a net negative for his teams, etc. If the Spurs are relying on this dude for a lot, it will not end up better than it ended up with DWest, who was a better player last season.

[Kawhitstorm]

He's been injured, he's been a net negative for his teams, etc. If the Spurs are relying on this dude for a lot, it will not end up better than it ended up with DWest, who was a better player last season.

Not sure where you got the "net negative" thing b/c he was a NET positive by a SIGNIFICANT margin in '13-'14 when he played significant minutes BOTH in the regular/postseason on a quality playoff team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2/on-off/2014/

The past two seasons, he was injured or playing on mediocre teams that don't fit his game otherwise he had a positive on/off numbers in limited minutes during the 2015 postseason on a championship squad:

Last season, D-Worst basically had NEUTRAL on/off numbers during the regular season & was a negative in the postseason: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2016/

When he was a starter on '14-'15, D-Worst had NEGATIVE on/off numbers on a lotto team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2015/

Lee CHOSE to sign for the minimum, he could have gotten the MLE on a team like the Raptors.

[SAGirl]

Not sure where you got the "net negative" thing b/c he was a NET positive by a SIGNIFICANT margin in '13-'14 when he played significant minutes BOTH in the regular/postseason on a quality playoff team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2/on-off/2014/

The past two seasons, he was injured or playing on mediocre teams that don't fit his game otherwise he had a positive on/off numbers in limited minutes during the 2015 postseason on a championship squad:

Last season, D-Worst basically had NEUTRAL on/off numbers during the regular season & was a negative in the postseason: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2016/

When he was a starter on '14-'15, D-Worst had NEGATIVE on/off numbers on a lotto team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2015/

Lee CHOSE to sign for the minimum, he could have gotten the MLE on a team like the Raptors.

Several advanced stats posed him as a negative last season. I don't care for 2 or 3 seasons ago bc two seasons ago is too long in a basketball career. 2 seasons ago B.Diaw was helping the Spurs win a championship and France earn the eurocup, Kyle was a 20 yr old coming in to the draft, 3 seasons ago he was in college, Bertans injured, Kawhi not yet what he is, Tony was still an all NBA player, a previous MVP candidate, and yea, Lee was in a warriors team that got him open and had a lot of guys to cover for him as well as him possibly still in the tail end of his prime as a player. 2-3 years ago is a long time in basketball years. He also didn't make it out of the second round as a main guy. bla bla, you are trolling at this point Kstorm and don't know why you are doubling down on this dude honestly.

[Kawhitstorm]

Lee was in a warriors team that got him open and had a lot of guys to cover for him .

Lee had a POSITIVE on/off WITHOUT Bogut/Ezeli covering for his ass during the 2014 postseason against the Clips.

For comparison, Diaw was a -8.5 when Tiago was injured & he had to guard Blake: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2015/

In the 2015 Finals, Lee had a comparable impact as CoJo did in the 2014 WCF when he turned around the series in limited minutes.

Lee is also not washed up since he doesn't have a ton of mileage for a 33 year old & is pretty spry although he has always had stiff hips.

Folks were saying Pau was washed up when he struggled with injuries at the same point of his career as Lee.

[SAGirl]

Lee had a POSITIVE on/off WITHOUT Bogut/Lee covering for his ass during the 2014 postseason against the Clips.

For comparison, Diaw was a -8.5 when Tiago was injured & he had to guard Blake: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2015/

In the 2015 Finals, Lee had a comparable impact as CoJo did in the 2014 WCF when he turned around the series in limited minutes.

Lee is also not washed up since he doesn't have a ton of mileage for a 33 year old & is pretty spry although he has always had stiff hips.

Folks were saying Pau was washed up when he struggled with injuries at the same point of his career as Lee.

He has been on good teams at all times the past few years... it's not like he was in Pau's situation in a lottery team in a disgruntled situation.

At this point will just leave it at that, you have clearly bought in and I have not, nor will I. But bc he's in the team it's a waste of my time. I don't care to be right about this bc it's not best for the team anyways. I don't expect much of him but support and rest for the other guys in the frontcourt and the occasional bailout of younger forwards than him. If he gives more than that and helps the team win I have no complaints.

[Kawhitstorm]

At this point will just leave it at that, you have clearly bought in and I have not, nor will I. But bc he's in the team it's a waste of my time. I don't care to be right about this bc it's not best for the team anyways. I don't expect much of him but support and rest for the other guys in the frontcourt and the occasional bailout of younger forwards than him. If he gives more than that and helps the team win I have no complaints.

You're acting like I claimed he's going to be the savior when my MAIN point was that he wasn't an "awful" defender outside of rim protection but BOTH D-Worst/Diaw 1.0 sucked at it so they won't be missed.

This past season, Lee was as better '14-'15 Baynes despite playing out of position on two mediocre teams: http://bkref.com/tiny/m7knG

In 2014-15, he wasn't any worse than Boris despite not being close to 100%: http://bkref.com/tiny/VNvoE

[alpha_HaZE]

That's the single best argument in favor of Lee. That, plus the fact that he does at least have NBA experience, and some playoff experience. That's a huge factor for Pop. The trade-off is the possibility of getting a young, hungry guy with some upside, who might over-achieve and be around for several years.





I didn't read the article where Lowe compared Lee's defense to Tiago Splitter's, but I believe it. Lowe is the darling of the media circle-jerk, because he's ambidextrous. So he doesn't get beaten up for saying stupid like that. He writes a lot of long-winded, detail-laden that looks great except for the fact that it's often meaningless - and wrong more often than right. Like when he wrote that dumb , brain-bleed article about where LeBron might go, "if" he decided to leave Miami - and none of the teams he considered was Cleveland. (Anyone with a brain knew that Cleveland was probably a 90% lock.) And I especially enjoy his scathing articles on the uniforms around the league. Good times.

The only similarity between David Lee's defense and Tiago's is that they both take place on the same end of the floor. Highlight reel videos don't tell you much about how a guy plays day in and day out. Lee has never been a good defender, and I think that's pretty well understood around the league. He'll do find against second-team opponents - except the teams that have good backup bigs who are legitimately big. As usual, a bunch of people will fall in love with him and crow about the good plays he has (and he will have some), and ignore the fact that he's a ing matador on defense.

Here's an article that got a lot of attention, and when the author presented his paper at Sloan. David Lee argued that it wasn't true. Some of the Warrior homers said it wasn't true, but most serious analysts agree that Lee is a defender. The analysts at Sloan that year just laughed their asses off about how bad Lee's defense is. I guess we'll see this season, and I'll admit it if he plays good defense. But don't hold your breath.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/co...e-golden-gate/

Excellent assessment on Lowe, I just hope Lee proves you wrong.

[SAGirl]

You're acting like I claimed he's going to be the savior when my MAIN point was that he wasn't an "awful" defender outside of rim protection but BOTH D-Worst/Diaw 1.0 sucked at it so they won't be missed.

This past season, Lee was as better '14-'15 Baynes despite playing out of position on two mediocre teams: http://bkref.com/tiny/m7knG

In 2014-15, he wasn't any worse than Boris despite not being close to 100%: http://bkref.com/tiny/VNvoE

Rim protection is not the issue if the team has Dedmon in the bench. It is whether Lee and Dedmon can fit together, or get in each other's way and whether Lee will have to be paired on his own with say Bertans in a new turd towers lineup of Lee/Bertans for example. The issue is whether Pop needs to play Lee with LMA or Pau, who are also not defensive minded bigs and are used to being paired with a defensive big to help out.

There are issues of fit, same as Dwest had his, but at this point we are going in circles. If he does prove better than West we should all be grateful. I also don't see him as the 3rd big at all (which Dwest ended up being and in the playoffs was the 2nd some games), but I could be wrong. The less I expect of him the better it will be if he surprises me, but like I said it doesn't matter at this point. He's a Spur.

[rudwick]

The misconception about his defense is that it exists.

[Manufan909]

The misconception about his defense is that it exists.

/thread

[cd021]

Rim protection is not the issue if the team has Dedmon in the bench. It is whether Lee and Dedmon can fit together, or get in each other's way and whether Lee will have to be paired on his own with say Bertans in a new turd towers lineup of Lee/Bertans for example. The issue is whether Pop needs to play Lee with LMA or Pau, who are also not defensive minded bigs and are used to being paired with a defensive big to help out.

There are issues of fit, same as Dwest had his, but at this point we are going in circles. If he does prove better than West we should all be grateful. I also don't see him as the 3rd big at all (which Dwest ended up being and in the playoffs was the 2nd some games), but I could be wrong. The less I expect of him the better it will be if he surprises me, but like I said it doesn't matter at this point. He's a Spur.

I really don't get why people keep bringing up Bertans as a 4, he is 6'10 that doesn't automatically make him one. He looks much more like a 3 and Anderson is much more of a four.

Aldridge is a good defender but point taken on him not being "defensive minded" he shouldn't have to co star on offense and anchor the defense. I think that Dedmon is the better fit beside him and Gasol off the bench with Lee. The bench unit doesn't need to clamp down on other teams so much as they just need to outscore them which is something the bench has been great at the past few seasons.

Lee can't really shoot outside of the paint and pairing him with Gasol gives the Spurs a floor spacing big (Gasol's midrange numbers over the past two seasons has been outrageously good). Paring Lee and Gasol with Mills, Manu, and Anderson gives the Spurs two perimeter threats, a roll threat, a post threat/ pick and pop threat and Anderson as kind of blend of all three (seldom takes 3's but is an excellent mid range shooter, and can post).

I think that come playoff time, against GSW (assuming we make it that far) Anderson would play both backup forward spots with Lee being the odd man out. I think that Mills could be out of the rotation for that series as well, depending on how Simmons and or Bertans play. The Spurs could wind up having a bench unit that has; Manu-Simmons/ Bertans- Green/ Leonard- Anderson-Gasol

[SAGirl]

I really don't get why people keep bringing up Bertans as a 4, he is 6'10 that doesn't automatically make him one. He looks much more like a 3 and Anderson is much more of a four.

Aldridge is a good defender but point taken on him not being "defensive minded" he shouldn't have to co star on offense and anchor the defense. I think that Dedmon is the better fit beside him and Gasol off the bench with Lee. The bench unit doesn't need to clamp down on other teams so much as they just need to outscore them which is something the bench has been great at the past few seasons.

Lee can't really shoot outside of the paint and pairing him with Gasol gives the Spurs a floor spacing big (Gasol's midrange numbers over the past two seasons has been outrageously good). Paring Lee and Gasol with Mills, Manu, and Anderson gives the Spurs two perimeter threats, a roll threat, a post threat/ pick and pop threat and Anderson as kind of blend of all three (seldom takes 3's but is an excellent mid range shooter, and can post).

I think that come playoff time, against GSW (assuming we make it that far) Anderson would play both backup forward spots with Lee being the odd man out. I think that Mills could be out of the rotation for that series as well, depending on how Simmons and or Bertans play. The Spurs could wind up having a bench unit that has; Manu-Simmons/ Bertans- Green/ Leonard- Anderson-Gasol

Ppl bring up Bertans as a 4 (or at least I do) bc he's specifically said that is what Spurs told him he would play and its all he played in SL. It seems for now Pop intends to play him there. Whether that changes is another matter. He has taken Bonner's role in the Spurs. I know he's a more versatile shooter than Bonner but for now that is all he said.

I agree with you on Lee. I am sure Pop will experiment a lot with bench lineups but he also must have in mind more or less what they want to do. I think Lee was signed for depth in case younger guys don't pull through personally, but if they do, he might be the odd man out like Butler. That's how I see it. I might be wrong of course but he doesn't make sense in the middle of a youth movement unless he's in that role.

[dabom]

I really don't get why people keep bringing up Bertans as a 4, he is 6'10 that doesn't automatically make him one. He looks much more like a 3 and Anderson is much more of a four.

Aldridge is a good defender but point taken on him not being "defensive minded" he shouldn't have to co star on offense and anchor the defense. I think that Dedmon is the better fit beside him and Gasol off the bench with Lee. The bench unit doesn't need to clamp down on other teams so much as they just need to outscore them which is something the bench has been great at the past few seasons.

Lee can't really shoot outside of the paint and pairing him with Gasol gives the Spurs a floor spacing big (Gasol's midrange numbers over the past two seasons has been outrageously good). Paring Lee and Gasol with Mills, Manu, and Anderson gives the Spurs two perimeter threats, a roll threat, a post threat/ pick and pop threat and Anderson as kind of blend of all three (seldom takes 3's but is an excellent mid range shooter, and can post).

I think that come playoff time, against GSW (assuming we make it that far) Anderson would play both backup forward spots with Lee being the odd man out. I think that Mills could be out of the rotation for that series as well, depending on how Simmons and or Bertans play. The Spurs could wind up having a bench unit that has; Manu-Simmons/ Bertans- Green/ Leonard- Anderson-Gasol

You lost all credibility when you said Patty ing Mills would be out of rotation. I don't think you understand basketball.

[Kawhitstorm]

Aldridge is a good defender but point taken on him not being "defensive minded" he shouldn't have to co star on offense and anchor the defense. I think that Dedmon is the better fit beside him and Gasol off the bench with Lee. The bench unit doesn't need to clamp down on other teams so much as they just need to outscore them which is something the bench has been great at the past few seasons.

Pau shouldn't play the 4 by all means necessary & LMA sucks as a rim protector thus the best tandem is starting Pau/LMA then rotating Dedmon/LMA then Pau/Lee.

[Kawhitstorm]

Out of the 1648 players with a sufficient sample size that played in the NBA from 1991 to 2014, David Lee ranks 1382nd in defensive RAPM.

Can you list me his defensive RAPM when he ACTUALLY played w/ a rim protector on a playoff team?

Let's not act like K-Love wasn't the one that got the le clinching stop on none other than the so called best offensive player in the league.

[Brian Windhorst]

My guess is PATFO expect KA to be ready at the backup 4 spot from day 1 and just signed Lee for short stints and insurance. Much like D West, he'll be fine playing 24 minutes on nights when guys rest during the regular season.

I think going from Mills, Ginobili, Anderson, Diaw, West to Mills, Ginobili, Simmons, Anderson, Dedmon will actually be a more significant upgrade on both ends than people expect. Then you have Bertans, Lee, Murray, and LJC waiting in the wings as opposed to Miller, Bonner, Martin, & Boban.

The only real problem is that this roster is currently razor thin at "true" center and PG while being really bloated at the forward spots. If Pau and Tony suddenly miss a few weeks together, we'll be relying on Murray and Dewayne Dedmon to give us 20+ MPG.

[GSH]

I've been scrutinizing his defensive metrics & they just do seem to indicate that he's a "horrible" defender.

The metric I like the best to compare TEAMMATES is DBPM:

The biggest misconception about Lee's defense EVER is your stupid ing post. That's what happens when an ignorant ing person gets his hands on an ignorant ing stat.

How about this? Enes Kanter HAS had a negative DBPM... every single season of his career. He absolutely kicked the out of the Spurs defensively. David Lee has never kicked the out of anyone defensively. That alone would make a normal person think maybe there is something wrong with the stat.

But wait! You're about to say that you claim to like the stat to "compare TEAMMATES", and that I just don't get it. So Kanter's -3.1 DBPM last season (the worst of his career) makes him the worst defender on that Thunder team, other than Anthony Morrow (-3.2). Way, way worse than Dion Waiters, who had a -1.5 DBPM. I'm convinced. DBPM must be a great way to compare teammates' defensively.

David Lee is a ing defensive liability. Always has been. People who actually watch him play agree on that overwhelmingly.

[dabom]

The biggest misconception about Lee's defense EVER is your stupid ing post. That's what happens when an ignorant ing person gets his hands on an ignorant ing stat.

How about this? Enes Kanter HAS had a negative DBPM... every single season of his career. He absolutely kicked the out of the Spurs defensively. David Lee has never kicked the out of anyone defensively. That alone would make a normal person think maybe there is something wrong with the stat.

But wait! You're about to say that you claim to like the stat to "compare TEAMMATES", and that I just don't get it. So Kanter's -3.1 DBPM last season (the worst of his career) makes him the worst defender on that Thunder team, other than Anthony Morrow (-3.2). Way, way worse than Dion Waiters, who had a -1.5 DBPM. I'm convinced. DBPM must be a great way to compare teammates' defensively.

David Lee is a ing defensive liability. Always has been. People who actually watch him play agree on that overwhelmingly.

Not much but Kanter was Playing against a Dwest and sometimes Diaw lineup.

[TD 21]

Pau shouldn't play the 4 by all means necessary & LMA sucks as a rim protector thus the best tandem is starting Pau/LMA then rotating Dedmon/LMA then Pau/Lee.

That's only somewhat practical in the 1st half or in blowouts though.

The only real problem is that this roster is currently razor thin at "true" center and PG while being really bloated at the forward spots. If Pau and Tony suddenly miss a few weeks together, we'll be relying on Murray and Dewayne Dedmon to give us 20+ MPG.

Aldridge (defensively) and Lee (offensively) can essentially play center in tandem.

The same goes for Ginobili (offensively) and Simmons (defensively), at point guard.