Bucks: Tim Duncan is the third best player of all time..

[cobbler]

You're just another idiot AMB. Proving it daily I might add. Yep "idiot" is definitely overrating with respect to you.

[ambchang]

So your advanced stats don't sway the argument.

That's why it's an argument. I take a larger sample of numbers using advanced stats and you shrink it down and said all advanced stats are invalid because of it.

It's like you using a large number of traditional stats, then I said mark eaton has more blocks than Hakeem during his peak therefore you are saying eaton is better than Hakeem. It's being intellectually dishonest.

[ambchang]

You're just another idiot AMB. Proving it daily I might add. Yep "idiot" is definitely overrating with respect to you.

Two repeats in the same post and two personal insults in the same post.

Do you follow anything you "lecture" other people to do?

Or more precisely, do you NOT do anything you "lecture" other people not to do?

[cobbler]

ding ding ding ding. We have a WINNER!!! Cha-Ching!!!

Thanks Amb! Much appreciated.

[ambchang]

ding ding ding ding. We have a WINNER!!! Cha-Ching!!!

Thanks Amb! Much appreciated.

In the race to the bottom, you will always be the winner.

[cobbler]

In the race to the bottom, you will always be the winner.

No, you don't understand at all. I'll explain for your pea little brain. You see, the other day when I was enlightening you on how moronic your "three-peat" logic was I had a few friends over and they were amused at just how stupid, illogical, and defensive some people can be when they come to the realization they were completely wrong. Especially so on the internet. So I went on to tell them how you do this ALL the time and how you just keep repeating yourself and talking in circles as if some magic will make your false statements come true.

Following so far?

So I go on to tell them this happens a lot with you and not just with me and that I have been finding humor showing you to be the fool you obviously are. I say and I quote myself here for accuracy, "This guy is such a puppet, I could pull his strings and get him to repeat the exact same sentences over and over at my will". They laugh and put up $100.00 that I could not get you to repeat yourself 5 times. The life of the bet was put at one month.

It took two days! They obviously set the bar too low with five as well. Though twenty five wouldn't have been so difficult either.

Easy money!!!! Cha-Ching!!!!!!

So again, thanks AMB! Much appreciated!

[ambchang]

No, you don't understand at all. I'll explain for your pea little brain. You see, the other day when I was enlightening you on how moronic your "three-peat" logic was I had a few friends over and they were amused at just how stupid, illogical, and defensive some people can be when they come to the realization they were completely wrong. Especially so on the internet. So I went on to tell them how you do this ALL the time and how you just keep repeating yourself and talking in circles as if some magic will make your false statements come true.

Following so far?

So I go on to tell them this happens a lot with you and not just with me and that I have been finding humor showing you to be the fool you obviously are. I say and I quote myself here for accuracy, "This guy is such a puppet, I could pull his strings and get him to repeat the exact same sentences over and over at my will". They laugh and put up $100.00 that I could not get you to repeat yourself 5 times. The life of the bet was put at one month.

It took two days! They obviously set the bar too low with five as well. Though twenty five wouldn't have been so difficult either.

Easy money!!!! Cha-Ching!!!!!!

So again, thanks AMB! Much appreciated!

Congratulations on having these friends. Not entire sure what your point is as if me not knowing you having friends who make bets with you is a reflection of my intelligence.

At the same time, you repeated yourself over the period as well, so if I am stupid in doing it, so are you.

PS. Much appreciated that I have so affected you that you have to share with your friends about me. FYI, no one in my social circle in real life knows about you.

[cobbler]

Congratulations on having these friends. Not entire sure what your point is as if me not knowing you having friends who make bets with you is a reflection of my intelligence.

At the same time, you repeated yourself over the period as well, so if I am stupid in doing it, so are you.

Just a puppet master doing what puppet masters do Amb.

Thanks so very much for being the puppet. Really!!! I'm being sincere here. I think I'll go pick up an nice bottle of Glenmorangie Port Cask on you and tip one back in your honor.

Cha cha cha cha-ching!!!!

[ambchang]

Just a puppet master doing what puppet masters do Amb.

Thanks so very much for being the puppet. Really!!! I'm being sincere here. I think I'll go pick up an nice bottle of Glenmorangie Port Cask on you and tip one back in your honor.

Cha cha cha cha-ching!!!!

Same could be said the other way. This logic of you are doing what I wanted you to do is faulty, as I can just easily say you are responding to me in a way that is expected as well.

I can say though people calling the shots usually don't let the Internet life and actual social life impact each other.

[djohn2oo8]

That's why it's an argument. I take a larger sample of numbers using advanced stats and you shrink it down and said all advanced stats are invalid because of it.

It's like you using a large number of traditional stats, then I said mark eaton has more blocks than Hakeem during his peak therefore you are saying eaton is better than Hakeem. It's being intellectually dishonest.

I could use a larger number of advanced stats that Chris Paul has that are better than Duncan's. Does it mean he is better? No it doesn't. That's my point

[ambchang]

I could use a larger number of advanced stats that Chris Paul has that are better than Duncan's. Does it mean he is better? No it doesn't. That's my point

And I can use a larger number of traditional stats that speaks to David Robinson being better than Hakeem too.

[djohn2oo8]

And I can use a larger number of traditional stats that speaks to David Robinson being better than Hakeem too.

No you can't. Especially from their playoff series together

[ambchang]

No you can't. Especially from their playoff series together

So you are looking at one single series now?

Robinson/Hakeem career highs:

Points: 29.8/27.8
RPG: 13/14
BLK: 4.5/4.6
AST: 4.8/3.6
STL: 2.3/2.6
FG%: .552/.538
FT%: .774/.787
TOV: 3.3/3.9
FOULS: 3.2/4.2

As you can see, based on traditional stats, Robinson >= Hakeem.

[djohn2oo8]

So you are looking at one single series now?

Robinson/Hakeem career highs:

Points: 29.8/27.8
RPG: 13/14
BLK: 4.5/4.6
AST: 4.8/3.6
STL: 2.3/2.6
FG%: .552/.538
FT%: .774/.787
TOV: 3.3/3.9
FOULS: 3.2/4.2

As you can see, based on traditional stats, Robinson >= Hakeem.

You said you would post the larger stats. Where are they? Funny how you didn't post how David's numbers went down in the playoffs on the regular, and the numbers Hakeem put on his ass.

[ambchang]

You said you would post the larger stats. Where are they? Funny how you didn't post how David's numbers went down in the playoffs on the regular, and the numbers Hakeem put on his ass.

I used 9 of those numbers, isn't that large enough?

Playoffs, I am not sure how we can compare averages. Hakeem played in 3 le runs in his prime, Robinson didn't, so I can't compare totals.

If I am doing averages, one player playing one series vs. another playing 2 series isn't apples to apples, so I can't really compare that way either.

Finally, if you want to do H2H:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=robinda01

Robinson won 30 of 12 games:
Comparison (Robinson/Hakeem):
Points: 19.6/21.9
REB: 11.2/11.2
BLK: 3.3/3.4
ASST: 2.9/2.8
STL: 2.2/1.9
TOV: 3.0/2.9
FOULS: 3.4/4.0
FG%: .488/.441
FT%: .717/.768

All keeping in mind Robinson faced Hakeem when he first came in the league as a young buck when Hakeem was already established, and Robinson's prime ended around the time Hakeem ended his prime because of injuries

But then again, this shouldn't be a huge surprise. If Robinson didn't have a PG who made ONE career 3 pter, as opposed to someone who can actually open up the lane, his legacy would be very different. I doubt he'd be able to dominate like Hakeem did in the post season as his game really wasn't a 90s post up game and much more suited to today's game, but his face up game, quickness and general mobility would allow him to dominate today's game. Hakeem would dominate in any era, but I don't think his style would be as conducive today's game as it did in the 90s.

[ambchang]

Actually, looking at advanced stats, it's really a blood bath.

Hakeem's career high in WS was 15.8, Robinson had 4 seasons with a higher WS than that
WS/48: .234, 10 seasons
BPM: 8.4, 3 seasons over, 2 more seasons tied
VORP: 1 season over, 1 season tied
PER: 27.3, 7 seasons.

It's sad, if Robinson had the right team around him (a PG who can shoot, a SG who can shoot and defend, Elliott was fine, and a PF who does the dirty work, like Terry mings in Robinson's rookie season), he'd be known as a top 10 player of all time. Instead, he was swarmed game after game after game, and got labelled as a choker because he couldn't beat triple teams of sagging defenses in the playoffs.

[spurraider21]

In the race to the bottom, you will always be the winner.

i dont think he's capable of winning any kind of race

[benefactor]

i dont think he's capable of winning any kind of race

crofl

[da_suns_fan]

so who's the third best of all time? You find any single player who ever played, and I can give you blemishes that equal or exceed Duncan's.

Shaq. Magic. Hakeem. Bird.

Id take all four of them in their prime before taking Duncan in his prime (without question).

Then you get into tougher ones, but those four go without saying.

[djohn2oo8]

i dont think he's capable of winning any kind of race

Raider fans should be banned from discussing races.

[djohn2oo8]

I used 9 of those numbers, isn't that large enough?

Playoffs, I am not sure how we can compare averages. Hakeem played in 3 le runs in his prime, Robinson didn't so I can't compare totals.

So basically you established that Robinson wasn't good enough in the playoffs, that's why you can't compare totals. I agree with that. Every single year Robinson's number dropped in the playoffs. Amb being amb again.

[djohn2oo8]

Shaq. Magic. Hakeem. Bird.

Id take all four of them in their prime before taking Duncan in his prime (without question).

Then you get into tougher ones, but those four go without saying.

Would any of those four have ever been outplayed by Ginobli for an entire playoff run?

[ambchang]

Shaq. Magic. Hakeem. Bird.

Id take all four of them in their prime before taking Duncan in his prime (without question).

Then you get into tougher ones, but those four go without saying.

Sure you can, but want to focus on the blemishes, so I will play that game:


Compared to the ones you listed:

I dont care what his grammar was. It doesnt change the fact that Duncan never repeated.

Neither did Bird

And didnt peak as high as Shaq in any single advanced statistical category.

Duncan beat Hakeem Bird and Magic here.

And lost to an eighth seed.

Shaq was swept 5 times, missed the playoffs twice (off prime, rookie year and 3rd last season), was on wrong end of one of the biggest upsets in NBA history
Hakeem missed the playoffs in his prime (injuries played a big role), was destroyed by the Sonics in his prime and outplayed by Shawn Kemp, perennial first round fodder until the right system was put in place.
Magic massively underwhelmed in 81 and got his coach fired. Lost to the lowest seed in the conference as well. Only reason it wasn't the 8th seed was because the league had 6 playoff teams per conference back in the day. They lost to a sub .500 team in the playoffs in the first round, for Pete's sake.
Bird got murdered by Philly (lower seed) in 80 and 82, swept by a lower seed in 83 (Bucks? Really, Bucks?), and then swept by the Pistons in 89 (Bird couldn't even get them higher than 8th seed).

And won a bronze medal.

Unsure how this factors into how you rank NBA players, as the olympics isn't really part of the NBA.

So no, he's definitely not the third best player of all time.

Not even close.

Perhaps you can say the same for every single other player as well.

[ambchang]

So basically you established that Robinson wasn't good enough in the playoffs, that's why you can't compare totals. I agree with that. Every single year Robinson's number dropped in the playoffs. Amb being amb again.

Did Hakeem magically became good enough for the playoffs in 86, then somehow took a break for 8 years, then suddenly became good enough for 94 and 95, then wasn't good enough for the playoffs again afterwards?

not good enough for the playoffs with Clyde, Pippen and/or Barkley
greatest PG Robinson played with couldn't even make it as a 3rd string PG for Hakeem

[ambchang]

Would any of those four have ever been outplayed by Ginobli for an entire playoff run?

Hakeem did get outplayed by Shawn Kemp one on one though. And how did you figure Ginobili outplayed Duncan in the 05 playoff run? Advanced stats? Because Duncan got more points than Manu (of course rebounds and blks, but those are big man stats).

Guess how Hakeem and Clyde measured up in the 95 playoff run?

Shooting yourself in the foot.
Bird got outplayed by McHale in the 85 playoff run and Cedric Maxwell in 81